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Crytal maze would not have penetrated deep inside and reached the lower floors of the structure which only SPICE could do. Using crystal maze alon would have caused extensive damage to the structure but may not have killed as many people as SPICE did.

Thanks, i kind of inferred that and wrote this in my previous post. Not bad for a novice like me :cool::).
 
Meteor has a boost phase, a sustainer phase and final end game phase. The initial boost is provided by the rocket motor which ignites the ramjet. This throttleable Ramjet remains on thruout the flight thereafter but at a very low thrust which allows the missile to maintain its speed. In the final end game, this ramjet provides extra thrust to allow very high manuevreability. It is during this cruise phase when ramjet has lowest power that it can be detected from miles. A normal missile has a boost phase and after that its rocket motor goes cold, it cruises and its speed decays. Once its seeker opens and locks on, the second pulse cuts in to increase its kinetic energy. Therefore during the cruise phase, a normal missile has nearly zero IR signature. The difference between a meteor and a normal missile is that of a rocket and a projectile.

AFAIK, the solid rocket sustainer is quite hot during the cruise phase as well.

Also what I didn't mention in the previous post, you pointed out about doppler MAWS. The only modern aircraft today with a doppler MAWS is the Typhoon. Rafale, Gripen etc use IR and PAK FA uses IR/UV. And the Typhoon's main BVR weapon is set to become the Meteor. So it appears we do not know everything necessary to actually come to a conclusion.
 
@vstol Jockey

@randomradio

I have a polite and Sincere Request

Please write in Some Detail for us
Uneducated "Warmongers" :ROFLMAO:

What all will A Strike at Sargodha Airbase involve and Require

Suppose instead of Balakot we have to destroy Sargodha , So how would we do it

Take your time but please do it

What will be the Weapons , Tactics , Technologies and Platforms that will go in this mission
 
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Crytal maze would not have penetrated deep inside and reached the lower floors of the structure which only SPICE could do. Using crystal maze alon would have caused extensive damage to the structure but may not have killed as many people as SPICE did.
Any aerodynamic object in a freefall from 15000 mtrs will have 1-1.5 Mach terminal velocity. At this speed a 1400kg missile can penetrate not just tin roof but concrete roof like hot knife on butter (there is a penetrator version of crystal maze too). It's barely 2 story building how many more excuses will be throw instead of telling the truth.

The image displayed of the roof showing 3 holes is one more dishonest attempt to lie even by former professionals (not you sir). First the target building changes everytime more evidence (clear sat image) come in public. This is 3rd building after first 2 were played on TV. The image is digitally manipulated and three holes are put which is minor pixelation at the edges (very common when we zoom too deep). Of all the place in that structure the missile find the few centimeter edge to strike in its journey of 70-80km, and not one missile but all 3 SPICE 2000 launched from different different platforms found that few cm edge to land in few cm area, what a coincidence!

In highly televised air exercises we barely hit the few sq feet wide mid point of target designated cross from just few km. Here magically all 3 bombs after gliding 70km found the edge and landed in unison within few centimeter on that edge out of whole building. The original image makes it more clear but I am refraining from posting and keeping it vague as it will give Pakistanis more propaganda material but with these lies, irrational arguments and image manipulation we are inviting some other countries posters to dig in and uncover that can take hit on our reputation and even our genuine claims like that of f16 becoming doubtful. Better if this thread is locked.
 
Any aerodynamic object in a freefall from 15000 mtrs will have 1-1.5 Mach terminal velocity. At this speed a 1400kg missile can penetrate not just tin roof but concrete roof like hot knife on butter (there is a penetrator version of crystal maze too). It's barely 2 story building how many more excuses will be throw instead of telling the truth.

The image displayed of the roof showing 3 holes is one more dishonest attempt to lie even by former professionals (not you sir). First the target building changes everytime more evidence (clear sat image) come in public. This is 3rd building after first 2 were played on TV. The image is digitally manipulated and three holes are put which is minor pixelation at the edges (very common when we zoom too deep). Of all the place in that structure the missile find the few centimeter edge to strike in its journey of 70-80km, and not one missile but all 3 SPICE 2000 launched from different different platforms found that few cm edge to land in few cm area, what a coincidence!

In highly televised air exercises we barely hit the few sq feet wide mid point of target designated cross from just few km. Here magically all 3 bombs after gliding 70km found the edge and landed in unison within few centimeter on that edge out of whole building. The original image makes it more clear but I am refraining from posting and keeping it vague as it will give Pakistanis more propaganda material but with these lies, irrational arguments and image manipulation we are inviting some other countries posters to dig in and uncover that can take hit on our reputation and even our genuine claims like that of f16 becoming doubtful. Better if this thread is locked.
That is the the whole problem. What do we have that will make us dominate the narrative especially when poorly crafted misinformation is handed out?
 
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Any aerodynamic object in a freefall from 15000 mtrs will have 1-1.5 Mach terminal velocity. At this speed a 1400kg missile can penetrate not just tin roof but concrete roof like hot knife on butter (there is a penetrator version of crystal maze too). It's barely 2 story building how many more excuses will be throw instead of telling the truth.

The image displayed of the roof showing 3 holes is one more dishonest attempt to lie even by former professionals (not you sir). First the target building changes everytime more evidence (clear sat image) come in public. This is 3rd building after first 2 were played on TV. The image is digitally manipulated and three holes are put which is minor pixelation at the edges (very common when we zoom too deep). Of all the place in that structure the missile find the few centimeter edge to strike in its journey of 70-80km, and not one missile but all 3 SPICE 2000 launched from different different platforms found that few cm edge to land in few cm area, what a coincidence!

In highly televised air exercises we barely hit the few sq feet wide mid point of target designated cross from just few km. Here magically all 3 bombs after gliding 70km found the edge and landed in unison within few centimeter on that edge out of whole building. The original image makes it more clear but I am refraining from posting and keeping it vague as it will give Pakistanis more propaganda material but with these lies, irrational arguments and image manipulation we are inviting some other countries posters to dig in and uncover that can take hit on our reputation and even our genuine claims like that of f16 becoming doubtful. Better if this thread is locked.
You need to educate yourself on terminal velocity and the velocity of a glide bomb. They are two very different things. While you are so badly hung on pictures, you have quietly forgotten the attempts of Pak Army to hide the damage and their PR fiasco with the visit of Journalists. Also please have a look at the most recent IAF excercise in Pokharan and see the live feed sent from the range. You will see the accuracy of this bomb.
 
Any aerodynamic object in a freefall from 15000 mtrs will have 1-1.5 Mach terminal velocity. At this speed a 1400kg missile can penetrate not just tin roof but concrete roof like hot knife on butter (there is a penetrator version of crystal maze too). It's barely 2 story building how many more excuses will be throw instead of telling the truth.

The image displayed of the roof showing 3 holes is one more dishonest attempt to lie even by former professionals (not you sir). First the target building changes everytime more evidence (clear sat image) come in public. This is 3rd building after first 2 were played on TV. The image is digitally manipulated and three holes are put which is minor pixelation at the edges (very common when we zoom too deep). Of all the place in that structure the missile find the few centimeter edge to strike in its journey of 70-80km, and not one missile but all 3 SPICE 2000 launched from different different platforms found that few cm edge to land in few cm area, what a coincidence!

In highly televised air exercises we barely hit the few sq feet wide mid point of target designated cross from just few km. Here magically all 3 bombs after gliding 70km found the edge and landed in unison within few centimeter on that edge out of whole building. The original image makes it more clear but I am refraining from posting and keeping it vague as it will give Pakistanis more propaganda material but with these lies, irrational arguments and image manipulation we are inviting some other countries posters to dig in and uncover that can take hit on our reputation and even our genuine claims like that of f16 becoming doubtful. Better if this thread is locked.

Why would the Pakistanis not allow access to the Balakot site for 40 days

Secondly Balakot was one among the 3 places

Chakoti and Muzaffarabad were also hit
But not declared officially

If you do not follow Pak media or Twitter
Then you wont understand but this Whole Face off which has started after Feb 26
And is Still ongoing
Has SCARRED the Pakistani psyche like nothing else before

All their arrogance and attitude has vanished in thin air

@BlackOpsIndia Have you read about Gulf war Air operations

US AF understood undertook Waves of Air attacks for Targets for which the Bomb Damage Assessments were not conclusive

We dont have that luxury here

Air attacks are NOT set piece battles

@BlackOpsIndia Pakistan has Millions of Terrorists and Hundreds of Terror camps

Nobody is under ANY illusion that one Balakot will end terrorism

Balakot and ALL that has Happened thereafter and is Happening
is a statement of intent that we intend to Impose Costs on
Pakistan , for their Anti India Activities

Can Pakistan sustain this New Normal

Earlier Pakistan had absolutely no fear of
A Conventional attack by India

But now they find that their Nukes will not prevent India from Beating them up

And they are hugely angry and worried that
We have upended the whole Equation
 
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@vstol Jockey

@randomradio

I have a polite and Sincere Request

Please write in Some Detail for us
Uneducated "Warmongers" :ROFLMAO:

What all will A Strike at Sargodha Airbase involve and Require

Suppose instead of Balakot we have to destroy Sargodha , So how would we do it

Take your time but please do it

What will be the Weapons , Tactics , Technologies and Platforms that will go in this mission

It depends on the range and lethality of the weapon you are planning to use.

One: Use Brahmos. The range is enough that it will comfortably hit any part of Sargodha when fired from well within our borders. And the Pakistanis have no means of intercepting it. SCALP is also coming up.

Two: If you have missiles and glide bombs with ranges of 150Km, then you can do what the IAF did during Balakot. Penetrate the airspace a bit and drop glide bombs/missiles with longer range than the SPICE. The missiles and bombs can be intercepted, but it's very difficult. Their air defence does not have the capability to intercept such small targets yet. KH-59 and NSM come to mind.

Three: If you want to hit the base with regular bombs, or even SPICE, then you basically need a full scale war, decimate PAF in the air and then proceed to hit them on ground.
 
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For 30 years , India did nothing but fight terrorism on its own soil in A Defensive manner

For the first time in 30 years we are being
on the offensive

Yet People are splitting hairs and asking what was
" The Size of the Hole " made by Spice bomb in the Balakot madrasa

For Christ sake , See the Big picture
 
You need to educate yourself on terminal velocity and the velocity of a glide bomb. They are two very different things.

Sir few kgs weighing mortars shells penetrate concrete roofs in Kashmir every other day and kill so many from a family. During this standoff a picture from Rajasthan was released where suspicious shell penetrated roof later found to be anti aircraft shell (picture below).
D1UZYQUUwAEBWPZ.jpeg


Here we are saying 1400-1500kg bomb dropping from high altitude with initial velocity can't penetrate tin roof so we deployed 1000kg special penetrator! How is this even rational?

the attempts of Pak Army to hide the damage and their PR fiasco with the visit of Journalists.
How does it proove anything? More so when we have access to images of that site via satellite and they too show nothing, nothing at all. I have spent hours after hours to find single thing doubtful, out of order to somehow use my confirmational bias and conclude damage. There was not even chaos as expected after this big event of killing 200-300 people! Nothing at all in the compound that indicate panic or destruction. I was not relying only on damage to structure but looked all around best I can and found nothing. It's next to impossible if Pakistan achieved all that without alerting any satellite as it's not 90's anymore there are so many eyes in the sky that one passes overhead every few minutes.

Also please have a look at the most recent IAF excercise in Pokharan and see the live feed sent from the range. You will see the accuracy of this bomb.
I have seen that sir, also seen how year after year Tejas fail to hit the airborne target.
 
It depends on the range and lethality of the weapon you are planning to use.

One: Use Brahmos. The range is enough that it will comfortably hit any part of Sargodha when fired from well within our borders. And the Pakistanis have no means of intercepting it. SCALP is also coming up.

Two: If you have missiles and glide bombs with ranges of 150Km, then you can do what the IAF did during Balakot. Penetrate the airspace a bit and drop glide bombs/missiles with longer range than the SPICE. The missiles and bombs can be intercepted, but it's very difficult. Their air defence does not have the capability to intercept such small targets yet. KH-59 and NSM come to mind.

Three: If you want to hit the base with regular bombs, or even SPICE, then you basically need a full scale war, decimate PAF in the air and then proceed to hit them on ground.

In your opinion ,how many Radars and Missile batteries would be present in
And Around Sargodha

There is a Concept called Layered Air Defences
 
Sir few kgs weighing mortars shells penetrate concrete roofs in Kashmir every other day and kill so many from a family. During this standoff a picture from Rajasthan was released where suspicious shell penetrated roof later found to be anti aircraft shell (picture below).View attachment 7172

Here we are saying 1400-1500kg bomb dropping from high altitude with initial velocity can't penetrate tin roof so we deployed 1000kg special penetrator! How is this even rational?


How does it proove anything? More so when we have access to images of that site via satellite and they too show nothing, nothing at all. I have spent hours after hours to find single thing doubtful, out of order to somehow use my confirmational bias and conclude damage. There was not even chaos as expected after this big event of killing 200-300 people! Nothing at all in the compound that indicate panic or destruction. I was not relying only on damage to structure but looked all around best I can and found nothing. It's next to impossible if Pakistan achieved all that without alerting any satellite as it's not 90's anymore there are so many eyes in the sky that one passes overhead every few minutes.


I have seen that sir, also seen how year after year Tejas fail to hit the airborne target.
The shell hole you showed was of a ball ammo. The Mortars explode on impact. Even a normal bomb with normal impact fuse will blow up on hitting a roof. But to be able to penetrate 3-4 floors and explode at a particular floor, you need something very different. something which can count the number of floors it has gone thru and knows its own exact position in vertical plain before exploding.
We found details of dug up ground and in the front courtyard of that Madarsa.
 
That is the the whole problem. What do we have that will make us dominate the narrative especially when poorly crafted misinformation is handed out?

I wouldn't be worried about this "narrative" business.

The Pakistanis are in such a bad position that their military officials can't even publicly speak about it or risk revolt within their own ranks. There's not been a single word from the PAF to date.

One can only imagine what's happening within their HQ. They could not prevent the IAF from striking Balakot, and two other sites. They used their best forces against us the next day and had given themselves the best possible scenario they can possibly face, they failed to hit any ground targets, failed to hit any of the CAP flights, failed to detect the Mig-21s and then lost their best jet in the process. Why do you think they are so silent?

They have reached a point where they are practically begging us to deescalate.
 
That is the the whole problem. What do we have that will make us dominate the narrative especially when poorly crafted misinformation is handed out?
Doesn't matter if you dominate narrative or not as long as damage is done. So far our claims from semi official or journalists given special access by IAF really didn't add up with third party information available and are bordering to be called lies. I don't want to know many details as long as jihadis are skinned alive for killing 40 soldiers but our foreign secretary gave details, he specifically mentioned large number casualties in Balakote camp, when you go this length and some third party released images contrary to your claim it's your duty to clear the picture.

But to be able to penetrate 3-4 floors and explode at a particular floor, you need something very different. something which can count the number of floors it has gone thru and knows its own exact position in vertical plain before exploding.
We found details of dug
And how many floors were there sir? Were we hitting specific floor of 20 story building? This was barely a 2 story building with top roof of tin. That crystal maze could have penetrated many more floors than in this building.

This whole information about using SPICE 2000 to target was released after strike by people with closed linkages with IAF, so that we start finding holes when we can't see collapsed structure. Looks more and more like contingency planning to clam down country after we didn't hit target 'in that compound'. I listened to our official press conference next day repeatedly after finding no damage parying that they didn't mentioned location so that I can delude myself thinking we hit somewhere else but this was mentioned in our offical claim.

We found details of dug up ground and in the front courtyard of that Madarsa.
No such thing was found.

They have reached a point where they are practically begging us to deescalate.
They are and we are giving them what they want instead of going for final kill.
 
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No clue about that. But there will obviously be enough to stop a 4th gen fleet.
They have used this opportunity to strengthen their air defence with many more batteries at important sites. Next time we many not be lucky to go in and exit without damage however here in India it's business as usual.
 
And how many floors were there sir? Were we hitting specific floor of 20 story building? This was barely a 2 story building with top roof of tin. That crystal maze could have penetrated many more floors than in this building.
If I remember correctly, Their were three floors and the penetrator needed to explode on the ground floor after going thru three roofs. nearly everyone was in the ground floor.

No such thing was found.
The pictures were posted here which were downloaded from the commercial satellites and I had pointed out the earth dug out in the compound most likely to bury the dead. You can see that post here.

They have used this opportunity to strengthen their air defence with many more batteries at important sites. Next time we many not be lucky to go in and exit without damage however here in India it's business as usual.
Is this what you think? next time, PAF will not be allowed to get airborne or use their AD weapons. Next time we will announce our arrival and shoot them down openly.
 
Is this what you think? next time, PAF will not be allowed to get airborne or use their AD weapons. Next time we will announce our arrival and shoot them down openly.

I don't know if I've mentioned this before. But every 4 wheeler driver in Gujarat carrries a tire iron or a lathi or a cosh. Every time he gets into a fracas, he draws out the weapon and proceeds to attempt to assault his opponent with it. Except, a large crowd assembles and separate the two warring parties before a blow is landed / blows exchanged. However, in the interim & post the incident plenty of abusive language and threats are exchanged.It's not unusual to see Bharat milap type reunions and tearful reconciliation too.

This is standard staple of Surat. From the days of Shivaji, who mounted spectacular raids into Surat ( which was then held by the Mughals) , when asked, how did the Surtis ( ppl of Surat ) respond? We abused him too - is their retort.

You can check this behavior with any of the native Gujarati members here.

This is Modi's modus operandi. He will retaliate hard and stop there. There won't be any escalation. Just bluster and bluff. Like the Qatl ki Raat episode. In many ways he's pulling a Pakistan on Pakistan. Just as they used to threaten us with unleashing N weapons on our initiation of hostilities.

In a way there's a perverse logic in his plan too. He's interested in bettering the economy and other socio economic indicators. Not in being bogged down in an endless circle and cycle of retaliation with Pakistan.

You can check the veracity of my statements in the light of any similar outrage in the future.
 
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