Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

The drama surrounding this is funny.

Airbus understands that they are useless without the French. The French are threatening to go it alone while the Germans are threatening to choose the F-35 instead of the SH. And Airbus wants an FCAS agreement signed by June before the German elections 'cause there's a chance of the opposition backing out of FCAS anyway if they win.


Airbus executives said they see no viable “Plan B” for the embattled Future Combat Air System, as Eric Trappier, the CEO of fellow prime contractor Dassault, suggested earlier this month.

Antoine Bouvier, the head of Airbus strategy, mergers and public affairs, and Dirk Hoke, CEO of the aerospace giant’s defense division, testified before the French Senate’s foreign affairs committee on March 17 in an effort calm tensions boiling in the trinational program, known as FCAS (or SCAF in French).

Airbus and Dassault are the two main contractors for the program, with work shares to be equally divided between partner nations France, Germany and Spain. The participants had envisioned kicking off the next project stage, dubbed Phase 1B, by this summer. But new disagreements over governance procedures and the sharing of industry secrets have put the program’s future in question.

The two Airbus executives sought to pin the program’s success to the broader vision of a more independent Europe. Failure would mean the Americans can swoop in and sell their F-35 aircraft to a continent in need of its own advanced warplane industry, Bouvier argued.

“There is is no ‘Plan B,’ ” he said, referring to the suggestion that Dassault’s CEO made before the same committee a week prior.
The Dassault boss lamented that the division of labor following Spain’s inclusion would make his job as the main risk taker on the program’s central element, the Next-Generation Fighter, near impossible. In addition, Airbus was on track to become too dominant a player, given that the company also has roots in Spain and Germany, he argued.

Bouvier sought to dispel the idea of Dassault getting outplayed, noting that Airbus teaming arrangements include other French industry heavyweights such as Thales and MBDA. Airbus is firmly entrenched in the business of French defense, he said, suggesting the company should not be viewed as leaning too German when it comes to FCAS.

The bias on both sides goes something like this, according to Bouvier: Some Germans think the French want to build a French airplane with German money, while some French think the Germans want to steal trade secrets and build a weapon of their own.

The “invective and polemic” surrounding the program — French business newspaper La Tribune had recently trashed Germany’s FCAS motives in a series of articles — was beginning to “pollute” the debate, Bouvier warned.

Speaking in French during the in-person committee meeting in Paris, Hoke said Airbus made a new offer for Dassault to retain four of six strategic work packages. In addition, negotiations were ongoing about contract language for Phase 1B to preserve companies‘ unique know-how in critical domains.

“That is easier said than done,” Hoke said.

A speedily inked deal is critical so Germany’s parliament has time to study and approve it before the summer recess in late June, Hoke said. Timing and the political context in Germany is the reason why Airbus has largely kept quiet about the FCAS kerfuffle, he added, as there is no telling how the issue would fare if dragged into Germany’s election season.
 
I really hope this thing dies. The Germans have done everything they could to ensure it can only be a financial, technical, and operational failure, and the Spanish haven't been much better.

The Germans are gonna buy the F-35 in the end anyway. After the F/A-18 are delivered, Washington will deny integration of the B61-12 on it, so the Germans will be forced to acquire the F-35 to uphold their NATO duty. This is incredibly obvious.
 
The drama surrounding this is funny.

Airbus understands that they are useless without the French. The French are threatening to go it alone while the Germans are threatening to choose the F-35 instead of the SH. And Airbus wants an FCAS agreement signed by June before the German elections 'cause there's a chance of the opposition backing out of FCAS anyway if they win.


Airbus executives said they see no viable “Plan B” for the embattled Future Combat Air System, as Eric Trappier, the CEO of fellow prime contractor Dassault, suggested earlier this month.

Antoine Bouvier, the head of Airbus strategy, mergers and public affairs, and Dirk Hoke, CEO of the aerospace giant’s defense division, testified before the French Senate’s foreign affairs committee on March 17 in an effort calm tensions boiling in the trinational program, known as FCAS (or SCAF in French).

Airbus and Dassault are the two main contractors for the program, with work shares to be equally divided between partner nations France, Germany and Spain. The participants had envisioned kicking off the next project stage, dubbed Phase 1B, by this summer. But new disagreements over governance procedures and the sharing of industry secrets have put the program’s future in question.

The two Airbus executives sought to pin the program’s success to the broader vision of a more independent Europe. Failure would mean the Americans can swoop in and sell their F-35 aircraft to a continent in need of its own advanced warplane industry, Bouvier argued.

“There is is no ‘Plan B,’ ” he said, referring to the suggestion that Dassault’s CEO made before the same committee a week prior.
The Dassault boss lamented that the division of labor following Spain’s inclusion would make his job as the main risk taker on the program’s central element, the Next-Generation Fighter, near impossible. In addition, Airbus was on track to become too dominant a player, given that the company also has roots in Spain and Germany, he argued.

Bouvier sought to dispel the idea of Dassault getting outplayed, noting that Airbus teaming arrangements include other French industry heavyweights such as Thales and MBDA. Airbus is firmly entrenched in the business of French defense, he said, suggesting the company should not be viewed as leaning too German when it comes to FCAS.

The bias on both sides goes something like this, according to Bouvier: Some Germans think the French want to build a French airplane with German money, while some French think the Germans want to steal trade secrets and build a weapon of their own.

The “invective and polemic” surrounding the program — French business newspaper La Tribune had recently trashed Germany’s FCAS motives in a series of articles — was beginning to “pollute” the debate, Bouvier warned.

Speaking in French during the in-person committee meeting in Paris, Hoke said Airbus made a new offer for Dassault to retain four of six strategic work packages. In addition, negotiations were ongoing about contract language for Phase 1B to preserve companies‘ unique know-how in critical domains.

“That is easier said than done,” Hoke said.

A speedily inked deal is critical so Germany’s parliament has time to study and approve it before the summer recess in late June, Hoke said. Timing and the political context in Germany is the reason why Airbus has largely kept quiet about the FCAS kerfuffle, he added, as there is no telling how the issue would fare if dragged into Germany’s election season.
France has the advantage on this project : even if the germans leave during the R&D phase, now or in 5 years, the job made will be usefull for a 100% french project or another combo (Fr + Sp, Fr + India, ...)
France is the sole west european country to have the skill to built alone a full jet fighter, from the engine to the electronic system. Second one is GB, maybe, but the last combat jet 100% GB is the Hawk trainer... quite old and low end project (and successfull !).
Our problem was not a techical one, but a financial one. Money is quite free these last times with covid, so no more a problem.
I really hope this thing dies. The Germans have done everything they could to ensure it can only be a financial, technical, and operational failure, and the Spanish haven't been much better.

The Germans are gonna buy the F-35 in the end anyway. After the F/A-18 are delivered, Washington will deny integration of the B61-12 on it, so the Germans will be forced to acquire the F-35 to uphold their NATO duty. This is incredibly obvious.
Germany can also choose not to deliver the nuc bomb. After all with the US only key on it, it's not so important. Just posture.
 
I really hope this thing dies. The Germans have done everything they could to ensure it can only be a financial, technical, and operational failure, and the Spanish haven't been much better.

It doesn't look like Dassault & co and the French govt are on the same page though.

I'm actually hoping the FCAS branches off into two programs, like the FREMM, with the Germans and Spanish working on their own with the French-designed airframe and engine.

The Germans are gonna buy the F-35 in the end anyway. After the F/A-18 are delivered, Washington will deny integration of the B61-12 on it, so the Germans will be forced to acquire the F-35 to uphold their NATO duty. This is incredibly obvious.

Yep. Once the SH is operational, there will be a "sudden" realisation that the jet cannot penetrate advanced air defences.
 
Congrats to the Europeans, I guess. I hope the Germans give greater importance to security rather than politics.
 
What phase is the FCAS in right now? $4.25B is a significant amount.
Phase 1B, which covers the work of the program between 2021 and 2024, is a research and development phase that will define a demonstrator. It should be notified "in the autumn", for 3.5 billion euros, with each of the three countries also financing a third of the program.

The amount for phase 2, which will involve the manufacture and flight of one type of "prototype" (in one or two examples) and "one or two" types of remote carriers, has not yet been defined.

The first flights would take place in 2026-2027, with a possible slight shift in relation to the original schedule. However, there are still several major steps to be taken, since three different prototype configurations (all twin-engine) and six remote carriers (ranging from an improved cruise missile to a real combat drone) are still in the running: one third of the designs will go to flight tests.
 
Phase 1B, which covers the work of the program between 2021 and 2024, is a research and development phase that will define a demonstrator. It should be notified "in the autumn", for 3.5 billion euros, with each of the three countries also financing a third of the program.

The amount for phase 2, which will involve the manufacture and flight of one type of "prototype" (in one or two examples) and "one or two" types of remote carriers, has not yet been defined.

The first flights would take place in 2026-2027, with a possible slight shift in relation to the original schedule. However, there are still several major steps to be taken, since three different prototype configurations (all twin-engine) and six remote carriers (ranging from an improved cruise missile to a real combat drone) are still in the running: one third of the designs will go to flight tests.

Yeah, so the opposition has until 2024 to get the program cancelled.
 
Justin Timberlake Waiting GIF by MOODMAN


French waiting for initial phases to be over so that they can bring up the issues of "differing requirements and workshare".
 
Phase 1B, which covers the work of the program between 2021 and 2024, is a research and development phase that will define a demonstrator. It should be notified "in the autumn", for 3.5 billion euros, with each of the three countries also financing a third of the program.

The amount for phase 2, which will involve the manufacture and flight of one type of "prototype" (in one or two examples) and "one or two" types of remote carriers, has not yet been defined.

The first flights would take place in 2026-2027, with a possible slight shift in relation to the original schedule. However, there are still several major steps to be taken, since three different prototype configurations (all twin-engine) and six remote carriers (ranging from an improved cruise missile to a real combat drone) are still in the running: one third of the designs will go to flight tests.
Is it a heavy class like F22/SU57/j20 or just f35 type fighter? And what about the engine? You need to develop any new engine for that?
 
Is it a heavy class like F22/SU57/j20 or just f35 type fighter? And what about the engine? You need to develop any new engine for that?
For the same performance, we make smaller planes than the US, so I think that the NGF will have dimensions between those of the F-22 and the F-35. For the demonstrator, the M-88 will be sufficient because it can be pushed up to 11.5 t of thrust, but for the production aircraft we will develop a new engine with a variable bypass ratio.
 
Justin Timberlake Waiting GIF by MOODMAN


French waiting for initial phases to be over so that they can bring up the issues of "differing requirements and workshare".

Considering the potential size of the program, I don't think the French will go it alone. It will also squash their political dreams of European unity.
 
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@Picdelamirand-oil what would be the future of Rafale fighters post 2040? Do you have any plan to upgrade Rafale beyond F5 version?
You will be getting new stealth fighter by 2040 I guess. So chances Rafale's time upgrade will be a problem after that time frame I fear.
I am extremely skeptical about the SCAF. The Germans will kill it one way or another. Either they cancel it on their side because they'll deem they're not getting enough, or they'll force France to cancel it by demanding too much, or they get what they want and as a result the NGF is utterly useless, a Eurofighter-like lemon that'll cost twice as much as it should and has nearly zero operational interest. In any case, the Rafale will have to remain in service as the spearhead of French forces until a true successor is designed for it -- and it won't be the NGF. Just look at the dates: the aircraft the NGF will actually replace will be the Mirage 2000 (which is scheduled to be fully retired in 2035). The real Rafale replacement will be the generation after that; hopefully one designed without German incompetence to gum up the works.

For the Rafale there was a slide from the French air force showing that major standards F5, F6, and F7 were already roughly scheduled, bringing continuous Rafale upgrades until the 2060s.
 
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