India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

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Falcon said:
Hint: Article 370?

You know how I have always called revoking it a stupid move when you have same conditions in North East and Hill States. Now you have a spooked North East Separatist movement which has been peaceful, which is increasingly uneasy.

Then, for good measure, the Hindi language quip by Mr Shah on Hindi Diwas. Someone surely needs to recheck who comes out with such gem of moves without thinking things through.
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Revoking article 370 was more a symbolic but necessary move.. as no other state has a separate constitution... It had also become the totem for the separatists to rally around...
 
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vstol Jockey said:
While I do like your posts and also nearly always respond to them, I want you to please consider India Before MSD-Modi-Doval-Shah. Nehru had given up POK in 1949 as per Karachi Agreement. But Pakistanis are what they are and started the campaighn to take over whole of J&K after the first coup in 1958 under Gen. Ayub Khan. I wish you had read my astrological predictions and other astrological data about India in another forum. We were destined to have 13 Maouni Babas who will pretend to be Indians but will help our enemies. This was told to me by my GrandFather who himself was an outstanding astrologer. Modi is 14th PM of India and Kovind is 14th President of India. Some people wrongly call Modi as 15th after including Guljari Lal Nanda who was never elected to be our PM but was care taker PM on three occassions.
If you have read or heard Garuda Puraan, Hamaray desh kee terahavin ho gayi hai. A new India is born and if I have to believe the predictions of my Grandfather, which by the way have come 100% true, India will never be defeated ever by any power on earth. India will lead the world once again.
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Can you please tell me the links of your analysis? Thanks
 
DivineHeretic said:
The entire discussion over the past few pages has centred on the IAF's actions and its implication for India. Few have tried to analyse from PA+PAF's perspective on the implications of this skirmish on their overall military doctrines and even ORBAT. I'm writing from PA's perspective because PAF is expected to act in a supporting role to PA during major combat operations, and PA's ability to conduct ground operations will be heavily dependent upon PAF's performance. Also Rawalpindi GHQ rules above PAF HQ. Note that the following requirements are in addition to PAF's own duties of defending PAF bases

PA's ground operations doctrine in major combat is based on asymetric combat. To explain in simple terms, Nepoleon's stratagem: Use weak numerically inferior forces for defensive operations against stronger fighting forces while concentrating strong forces against enemy weak forces. PA intends to use small light Anti tank infantry battalions to take on own Armored brigades and light anti tank focused brigdes against armored divisons, with the intention of holding the enemy for 48-72 hours till own forces momentum is broken. The heavy forces, armor and mech forces are to be kept in concentrated reserve with the intention of striking weak own forces in any sector or counter attack on own forces in the event of IA's breakthrough.Textbook examples include FieldMarshal Walther Model's mobile battlegroups for counter attack while maintaining light forces along the front as a screen to hold and ground down Soviet offensives, if possible. PA envisons operations of similar nature against IA.

Now that doctrine requires that PAF be able to keep reasonable control of the air over PA strong forces' assembly/launch areas and key logistics lines. Without it massed PA armor forces will be slaughtered wholesale by IAF strikes. In fact without securing adequate air superiority PA will never be able to even concentrate adequate strong forces to make any effective challenge to any reasonble tier 1 IA formation. And PA knows this. PA's desperate situation in Longewala is an apt example of what happens when enemy has unchallenged air superiority over you.

Even for the defensive operations, PAF is required to contest the airspace effectively so that IA doesn't utilize IAF's CAS aircraft to render smaller challenging forces combat ineffective through relentless and uncontested CAS strikes. Example would be the utter destruction of PA defensive forces at several key points in then East Pakistan by air ops. the positions of defending PA troops were hammered hard enough that PA forces holding them simply shattered and were rendered combat ineffective before IA began a serious challenge in the area. As such on several occasions met forces that were already degraded by air strikes in the days before.

After the skrimish/engagement of PAF with IAF, PA's ability to conduct both defensive war while maintaining adequate strong forces for offensive/counteroffensive is severely suspect. The going theory within PA HQ was that PAF frontline aircrafts with BVRs can engage a numerically superior in a roughly equal battle, thereby tying down IAF from executing large scale CAS operations. The fact that PAF's premium fighter could not hold its own will no doubt have caused concern among ground war theorists in PA. Even with Mobile SAM support, which is in any case limited in number, PA formations are now under heightened state of threat given PAF will have to maintain most of its frontline fleet in contesting/defending against IAF assets while IAF can spare premium multirole Aircraft to Ground attack aircraft for terrestial force destruction. Under such circumstances asymetric combat doctrines cannot be safely applied without risking forces to utter destruction.

This is one of the reason PA was unwilling to engage in a major skirmish after India abrogated statehood of J&K on Aug 5. PA generals know in any such conflict even PAF's tier 1 aircrafts can and will be tied up defending against IAF's tier 2 assets, leaving precious little to support PA formations engaged in skirmish.
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Hi,

With the onset of integrated battle groups for the IA, with each being a smaller mix of Mechanized Infantry along with its own armor and anti-air support, and even possible Arty support, how does that change the classical definition of heavy vs light formations?

Given IBG's are diluted in terms of volume of firepower compared to a Tier1 formation but is more agile and versatile, will a PA light defense be able to hold off against it. How would you compare the for the sake of discussion ability of a first strike IBG formation vs a traditional formation? Also, the effect of multiple IBG's strikes, say 8 of them across IB, vs a traditional 3 formation strike derived from the Corp.

Lastly, Air interdiction and Forward Air support, the effect of both Vis-a-vis IBG's and traditional formations.


Separate from the above discussion, would you like to shed some light on the shortfalls of SPH and Towed Arty and how that hinders potential deployment and progress of the panned IBGs's.

Regards
Milspec
 
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vstol Jockey said:
While I do like your posts and also nearly always respond to them, I want you to please consider India Before MSD-Modi-Doval-Shah. Nehru had given up POK in 1949 as per Karachi Agreement. But Pakistanis are what they are and started the campaighn to take over whole of J&K after the first coup in 1958 under Gen. Ayub Khan. I wish you had read my astrological predictions and other astrological data about India in another forum. We were destined to have 13 Maouni Babas who will pretend to be Indians but will help our enemies. This was told to me by my GrandFather who himself was an outstanding astrologer. Modi is 14th PM of India and Kovind is 14th President of India. Some people wrongly call Modi as 15th after including Guljari Lal Nanda who was never elected to be our PM but was care taker PM on three occassions.
If you have read or heard Garuda Puraan, Hamaray desh kee terahavin ho gayi hai. A new India is born and if I have to believe the predictions of my Grandfather, which by the way have come 100% true, India will never be defeated ever by any power on earth. India will lead the world once again.
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Apkey muh mein ghee shakker ( if not diabetic)
 
_Anonymous_ said:
If you're diabetic why would you be worried about ghee shakkar in someone else's mouth? Why're you such a motor mouth?
Don't be so serious about life. We meet our Maker, one way or another.

Tc
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bhai mera experience hai life ka. I told this to some one and that guys replied to me that marwaega kya.. since then I ask.
 
Picard578 said:
No, not territory as such. Wars were for resources; and yes, this could be territory. Roman and Persian empires went to war for, among other things, control of local trade routes. But resources could be more immaterial as well: leader's reputation, empire's reputation, diplomatic influence and so on. Many Roman-Persian wars were nothing but localized spats waged for precisely such goals: winning empire would gain reputation, which would then translate into trade concessions, but also into diplomatic and ideological influence among neighbouring countries.

So what I am saying, there is lot less difference between people and their reasoning in antiquity, middle ages and modernity than most people today like to think. We did not really advance much past apes.

RE: Pakistan, I agree with that, nothing to add.
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You were gone for a long time. Welcome back.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
The removal of 370 and the actions planned by Pak have made a war mandatory. We can't have protests in J&K fuelled by Pak once the internet restrictions are lifted. We have to do a permanent solution now,
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We have plenty of time to go for a permanent solution. We should use up all other means first.
 
@Falcon though army air force are there for fighting..but still goi..and forces should work together to fighte propaganda war
A lots of confusion created by Pakistan and Indian media

1.paf entered our airspace (denied by acm dhanoa)(said by Indian media)
2.our bvrs were outranged (said by Indian media)
3.we have to use 2 su30 for one f16(said by Indian media)
4.our communication jammed,so abhinandan followed f16 in to pok.(said by Indian media)
5.our ads were in training mode(said by Saurav Jha)

My personal query .... though Pak jets were in no fly zone but our ads (Sam's)...can shoot down standaoff weapons (bombs)...which they dropped
Asking you honestly, again sir hatsoff to u..
You are countering all... answering all...on behalf of armed forces
 
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Falcon said:
He is fine. Obviously. The call went out. Every Imran and his dog in Pakistan heard it. Why would you sack him for following ROEs and the orders?
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Okay. My reply was to @vstol Jockey who said that the No-2 is supposed to stick to his leader. But maybe, as you suggested, if the formation leader violates the RoEs then the others must stick to the RoEs if the textbook says that unless deemed absolutely necessary the RoEs are to be given the maximum priority.

One needs to take decisions at the spur of the moment.
 
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I think some of us here are stuck on 27th....I totally agree the results could have been better......And also one needs to look at the short comings.....

It is like looking at one session of a test match.......

GoI and its forces controlled the escalation and we still hold the scope of further escalation without any further provocation..... I dono why we are not able to see the game as a whole rather than breaking head on one session......
 
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thinkingcap81 said:
Okay. My reply was to @vstol Jockey who said that the No-2 is supposed to stick to his leader. But maybe, as you suggested, if the formation leader violates the RoEs then the others must stick to the RoEs if the textbook says that unless deemed absolutely necessary the RoEs are to be given the maximum priority.
One needs to take decisions at the spur of the moment.
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What I stated was that even if the No-2 had continued with his leader after hearing the call to go cold, he could not have been blamed as it is his job to stick to his leader in the formation and the deciosion to return has to be taken by the leader. If as No-2 you hear an instruction for the formation and have reason to believe that the leader has not heard it or is disobeying them, you are supposed to call the leader and inform him about the instructions given.
Now Imagine if the No-2 had stuck to his leader. I am over 80% sure that we would not have lost Mig-21 and Abhi would not have ejected. This no-2 would have provided tail cover to Abhi and the PAF attacker would not have ventured to the rear of Abhi.
The other 20% chance was that Abhi would have gone down as he did but his attacker would have also gone down and our score would have been one Mig-21 lost for two F-16s shot down. Abhi used his R-73 as he had a lock on but he and his No-2 were equipped with R-77 also and these three F-16s were below their altitude.
 
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nair said:
GoI and its forces controlled the escalation and we still hold the scope of further escalation without any further provocation..... I dono why we are not able to see the game as a whole rather than breaking head on one session......
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Exactly my point! We are in for almost a decade long time frame here
 
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STEPHEN COHEN said:
For Any Succesful Indian Army Action
PAF will FIRST have to be Badly Mauled by IAF

So first 24 Hours Must be Exclusively Air And Naval Attacks

And only then Boots on the Ground
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When Abhinandan was caught by PAF and the news was all around in Twitter. The top most trending hashtag on Twitter is "We don't want war. Call for Peace".

In any future fight with Pakistan or China, if they were initial losses on our side. People will pressurize the Govt for peace. I feel that social media is a bane for military operations
 
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