Analysis War game: Next India-Pakistan conflict

For that we need a big scale war. And that won't be limited to pak but likely include bangladesh too. Can't say about chinese as it depends on larger geopolitical factors.

What you're envisioning is the germany post WW2. Need that scale of war.. to rally all stakeholders and come together to neuter Pakistani military
Nope and Nope

What I am talking about is an Iraq like collapse after the head loses contact with the tail, you dont fight major units, instead you buy out key commanders, stubborn units get isolated and either break / collapse or get wiped out after GHQ Pindi gets rezoned as a parking lot at Zero Hour.

A broken command structure where we achieve strategic paralysis if not operational for 72 hours will achieve the collapse I am talking about.
Let 1/2 province secede, set a fire in PoK - people demand exiting Pak, Balochis running their own train.

Turn your existing boots on ground into peacekeepers while Delhi puts together a peace formula.

If you try the full war route you will end with a Ukraine like situation with Arabs, Unkil and others propping Pak up while we grind away.

Knock out Pak before the Chinese can move or BD can finish the fish curry lunch.
 
Nope and Nope

What I am talking about is an Iraq like collapse after the head loses contact with the tail, you dont fight major units, instead you buy out key commanders, stubborn units get isolated and either break / collapse or get wiped out after GHQ Pindi gets rezoned as a parking lot at Zero Hour.

A broken command structure where we achieve strategic paralysis if not operational for 72 hours will achieve the collapse I am talking about.
Let 1/2 province secede, set a fire in PoK - people demand exiting Pak, Balochis running their own train.

Turn your existing boots on ground into peacekeepers while Delhi puts together a peace formula.

If you try the full war route you will end with a Ukraine like situation with Arabs, Unkil and others propping Pak up while we grind away.

Knock out Pak before the Chinese can move or BD can finish the fish curry lunch.
Ah! I thought you meant an after war scenario.

Yes, I agree with you. But I doubt govt has the guts to go for it. Or if RA&W is even prepared for it.
MOSSAD just works on a completely different work culture unlike RA&W which has seen inconsistency in ideologies at the top, limiting it's potential. Any agency or dept has to factor in the govt change and their ideologies to have cover against targeted by govt. Then you've got the fcn gogois of india..

Infact I am surprised govt is taking action against wangchuk.. A very welcome move, with the hard stance shown by MHA. Hopefully they won't back down now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paro
I am talking about zip tying and castrating the feral hog. Not let it build up strength.

Defanged and split up. The remaining force trying to maintain order and consequently its corner plots.

Nope and Nope

What I am talking about is an Iraq like collapse after the head loses contact with the tail, you dont fight major units, instead you buy out key commanders, stubborn units get isolated and either break / collapse or get wiped out after GHQ Pindi gets rezoned as a parking lot at Zero Hour.

A broken command structure where we achieve strategic paralysis if not operational for 72 hours will achieve the collapse I am talking about.
Let 1/2 province secede, set a fire in PoK - people demand exiting Pak, Balochis running their own train.

Turn your existing boots on ground into peacekeepers while Delhi puts together a peace formula.

If you try the full war route you will end with a Ukraine like situation with Arabs, Unkil and others propping Pak up while we grind away.

Knock out Pak before the Chinese can move or BD can finish the fish curry lunch.
You're referring to the immediate future post collapse of the Paxtani State.

I'm referring to the medium to long term future there. Those various factions of Fauji Foundation left & their commanders will have a fiefdom to look after . To what extent are you going to subsidise them & for how long ?

Look at the long term scenario for Paxtan . Their population today is 250 million poised to reach 300 million in a decade if not earlier.

The water scarcity is so acute it makes the list of the top 5 water stressed nations in the world. And that's in the present . What happens tomorrow when we divert waters from the Indus River Systems to our states since India especially North India is pretty water stressed too ?

Then there're the various tanzeems & the radicalization to consider. Add illiteracy , poor health & sanitation. Economically their industries are shutting down , agriculture even otherwise is unviable , with water scarcity it's going to be even more so .

Where do you think this mass of people will go to ? This isn't the 2010s anymore where people from sub Saharan Africa , Iraq , Libya , Syria etc ended up welcomed in the EU .

You're looking at masses of young men highly radicalized , well armed ( with small arms mfg becoming a cottage industry there not that it isn't ) running narco jehadi terrorist fiefdoms.

Paxtan eventually becomes an amorphous state with no central authority resembling the NW frontiers at the beginning of last millenium from where they lauch daily raids into what was then Paxtan & what is now NW India.

Our entire IB from J&K down to the Rann of Kutch will be highly militarised & clashes across the border will be daily affairs spilling onto our territory frequently or waged on their lands.

This will be a replay of the old classic pastoral nomadic vs sedentary population dynamic. Most of our energy & focus will go towards meeting this threat.

In the meanwhile BD explodes & the after effects are felt in our NE where pretty soon the Bengali Muslims in Assam who're galloping towards the 50% + population mark & having achieved it will look to surpass it soon achieving 60% .

The native Assamese won't sit quiet for obvious reasons & voila ! We've the makings of a major insurgency there with the Bengali Muslims finding sanctuary & support across the border.

Before you realise it the same situation is replicated in WB & since these vermin have spread across towns & cities in India you can expect problems to crop up everywhere.

Problems would be an extremely polite way to describe the situation & as this issue progresses it gets inter woven with traditional Hindu Muslim animosities & you're looking at a full blown civil war .

Into this now try to visualise how & where those narco jihadi tanzeems from Paxtan fit in !

What I'm describing isn't some cheap plot from a pulp fiction novel but a very realistic scenario set to unfold anywhere between 2-3 decades from now likely earlier.

It's something I've thought about long & hard. I can't seem to come up with any plausible scenario which isn't dire to our existence .

Oh yes for the purpose of a realistic scenario I've considered the Sino US war over Taiwan to have resulted in a Pyrrhic victory for the US with China split into 3-4 nations , the Gulf states lose their importance as oil as a commodity now longer rules the roost , EU is economically devasted after resuming the war in Ukraine against Russia defeating it but only barely & now have to face down Islamic hordes they've imported with a belligerent native population baying for their blood given the economic downturn , loss of confidence in the state as the social contract between the state & the citizens has long ceased to be functional or even trustworthy.

In other words the rest of the world have their own fish to fry which leaves us open to do pretty much what we want to . However the odds we face are daunting.

Check if you can wargame this differently.
 
Check if you can wargame this differently.
I actually modified my copy of Indo Pak Next war post sindoor with help from a few friends. The EW phase now is EW and drones/loitering munition, air strikes phase. A pvt AI LLM running locally helped us update the rules without running out of turns daily (Chat GPT I am looking at you)

The timeline is truncated to 4 days (additional 2 days on a lucky roll).

In 6 out of 10 plays its been limited territorial gains with massive degrading of Pak infra. The other 3 were stalemates (sindoor like) with Pak getting hit but nothing decisive.

The one that stood out was Pak going in first and knocking out Indian EW assets and degrading Indian bases. (We alt first turns to factor various triggers). This version played out almost mirroring Pak's Sindoor claims. They took nasty hits but prevented India from realizing any objectives - the conflict ended with Pak blunting India (which is a win for them)

The long digression aside - your post war population bomb scenario cant be gamed atleast not with the tools at hand.

In my long (sometimes liquid lunch driven) interactions with the people across the line, the sentiment is strong - either the future includes the army or there is no future for everyone.

A nuke exchange is not what India wants or needs to the golden parachute route sounds really appealing. A post conflict weakened Army is a necessity. The population bomb is our next problem. Unless you go all Mongol on them (which has its own challenges) this bomb is going to explode. We can just secure our borders with a North Korea level fanatism. Let them go hug their Arab brothers.
 
Indus water must be supplied to Delhi or else every house will require 1HP motor and without water CCS can't do meeting, what is the benefit of suspending IWT when water is not coming. Pyare Lal from NDMC can't do anything piche se pani band hai bhaisahab. Yamuna ka kooda phans gaya supply line mein.
 
My only point is if Indians were aware that Pakistan knew of incoming Indian strike, then RoEs should have been different.

Please next time don't do such incorrect assessment on Pakistan because this becomes a habbit and a muscle memory in whole establishment. You can't afford such assessment failure when dealing with bigger powers. Thanks to Indian convectional advantage over Pakistan but this advantage is not there while dealing with bigger powers.

Every test case should be simulated during peace time no matter if the chances of it happening are 0.01% . Because this 0.01% is what will become 100%.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Subgradewalker
I actually modified my copy of Indo Pak Next war post sindoor with help from a few friends. The EW phase now is EW and drones/loitering munition, air strikes phase. A pvt AI LLM running locally helped us update the rules without running out of turns daily (Chat GPT I am looking at you)

The timeline is truncated to 4 days (additional 2 days on a lucky roll).

In 6 out of 10 plays its been limited territorial gains with massive degrading of Pak infra. The other 3 were stalemates (sindoor like) with Pak getting hit but nothing decisive.

The one that stood out was Pak going in first and knocking out Indian EW assets and degrading Indian bases. (We alt first turns to factor various triggers). This version played out almost mirroring Pak's Sindoor claims. They took nasty hits but prevented India from realizing any objectives - the conflict ended with Pak blunting India (which is a win for them)

The long digression aside - your post war population bomb scenario cant be gamed atleast not with the tools at hand.
Why not ? Arguably the external enabling factors outside the sub continent has to be resolved in our favor the way I put it otherwise the factors within the sub continent are known & I don't see any substantial changes in it one way or another.
In my long (sometimes liquid lunch driven) interactions with the people across the line, the sentiment is strong - either the future includes the army or there is no future for everyone.
That's always been true about Paxtan ever since Zia toppled Bhutto. If ever there was any doubt Fauji Foundation wasn't the final arbiter of everything in Paxtan that event cleared any such doubts & since then like an invasive species they've been thriving at the cost of everything within that ecosystem.
A nuke exchange is not what India wants or needs to the golden parachute route sounds really appealing. A post conflict weakened Army is a necessity.
My larger point is that weaker military won't be able to sustain things beyond a point . Even after , theoretically speaking , a Balochistan is carved out & KPK FATA merge with Afghanistan .

And there're only so many games we can play pitting the Punjabi Musalman against the Pashtun or the Pashtun against the Tajik or the Sindhi against the Punjabi before they wise up & form a joint front .

Returning to the internal situation within Paxtan , the Punjab itself houses ~ 150 million people . That's no joke . How are you going to cater to that population which btw is ever increasing in the light of the points I've raised in my previous post ?!

You're looking at a Myanmar kind of situation where the United Wa Army functions as a state within a state with it's own army & primary economy derived from narcotics. And that's only one group albeit the most organised & dangerous of the ethnic groups there .

At least as far as China goes the region bordering those Wa region have people of the same ethnicity & religion occupy those lands in China which gives them added leverage over that Wa state & thereby leverage over the Tatmadaw in Myanmar.

We don't even have that advantage unless of course you're buying into the SGPC / Khalistani line of Punjabiyat.

Now multiply that 10 fold at the very least & factor in religious ideology & all the paraphernalia it brings to the Indo Pak dynamic.

The population bomb is our next problem. Unless you go all Mongol on them (which has its own challenges) this bomb is going to explode. We can just secure our borders with a North Korea level fanatism. Let them go hug their Arab brothers.
Going Mongol on them is the best way out else we'd be faced with something we'd have to grapple with for another century at least likely more than that . Think Israel ¹⁰ at the very least.

History demonstrates that whenever sedentary societies are faced with such repeated onslaughts over an extended period of time they eventually crack.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Karan
Why not ? Arguably the external enabling factors outside the sub continent has to be resolved in our favor the way I put it otherwise the factors within the sub continent are known & I don't see any substantial changes in it one way or another.

That's always been true about Paxtan ever since Zia toppled Bhutto. If ever there was any doubt Fauji Foundation wasn't the final arbiter of everything in Paxtan that event cleared any such doubts & since then like an invasive species they've been thriving at the cost of everything within that ecosystem.

My larger point is that weaker military won't be able to sustain things beyond a point . Even after , theoretically speaking , a Balochistan is carved out & KPK FATA merge with Afghanistan .

And there're only so many games we can play pitting the Punjabi Musalman against the Pashtun or the Pashtun against the Tajik or the Sindhi against the Punjabi before they wise up & form a joint front .

Returning to the internal situation within Paxtan , the Punjab itself houses ~ 150 million people . That's no joke . How are you going to cater to that population which btw is ever increasing in the light of the points I've raised in my previous post ?!

You're looking at a Myanmar kind of situation where the United Wa Army functions as a state within a state with it's own army & primary economy derived from narcotics. And that's only one group albeit the most organised & dangerous of the ethnic groups there .

At least as far as China goes the region bordering those Wa region have people of the same ethnicity & religion occupy those lands in China which gives them added leverage over that Wa state & thereby leverage over the Tatmadaw in Myanmar.

We don't even have that advantage unless of course you're buying into the SGPC / Khalistani line of Punjabiyat.

Now multiply that 10 fold at the very least & factor in religious ideology & all the paraphernalia it brings to the Indo Pak dynamic.


Going Mongol on them is the best way out else we'd be faced with something we'd have to grapple with for another century at least likely more than that . Think Israel ¹⁰ at the very least.

History demonstrates that whenever sedentary societies are faced with such repeated onslaughts over an extended period of time they eventually crack.

I don't think the the bomb issue is gonna remain constrained to India or subcontinent only.
The biggest issue in india is the leftist or psuedo-"secular"who provide ambiguity to demographic issue.

So, it probably needs an event where L-M black swan event to happen for that unholy alliance to end and your scenario to take place. Otherwise, the Indian army will be our last frontier. It might also finally move church to come out of the shadow and do some medical era shit. Given that our Temples have already been coopted, they will hardly be able to provide any resistance. They couldn't save Sabarimala even..
 
Posting again
Oh you bet. My money is on the fuse being already lit.
Tick Tok Tick Tok
Why not ? Arguably the external enabling factors outside the sub continent has to be resolved in our favor the way I put it otherwise the factors within the sub continent are known & I don't see any substantial changes in it one way or another.

That's always been true about Paxtan ever since Zia toppled Bhutto. If ever there was any doubt Fauji Foundation wasn't the final arbiter of everything in Paxtan that event cleared any such doubts & since then like an invasive species they've been thriving at the cost of everything within that ecosystem.

My larger point is that weaker military won't be able to sustain things beyond a point . Even after , theoretically speaking , a Balochistan is carved out & KPK FATA merge with Afghanistan .

And there're only so many games we can play pitting the Punjabi Musalman against the Pashtun or the Pashtun against the Tajik or the Sindhi against the Punjabi before they wise up & form a joint front .

Returning to the internal situation within Paxtan , the Punjab itself houses ~ 150 million people . That's no joke . How are you going to cater to that population which btw is ever increasing in the light of the points I've raised in my previous post ?!

You're looking at a Myanmar kind of situation where the United Wa Army functions as a state within a state with it's own army & primary economy derived from narcotics. And that's only one group albeit the most organised & dangerous of the ethnic groups there .

At least as far as China goes the region bordering those Wa region have people of the same ethnicity & religion occupy those lands in China which gives them added leverage over that Wa state & thereby leverage over the Tatmadaw in Myanmar.

We don't even have that advantage unless of course you're buying into the SGPC / Khalistani line of Punjabiyat.

Now multiply that 10 fold at the very least & factor in religious ideology & all the paraphernalia it brings to the Indo Pak dynamic.


Going Mongol on them is the best way out else we'd be faced with something we'd have to grapple with for another century at least likely more than that . Think Israel ¹⁰ at the very least.

History demonstrates that whenever sedentary societies are faced with such repeated onslaughts over an extended period of time they eventually crack.
We are talking on the same scenario but different stages. Times like these makes me wish we had a DM feature.
 
  • Like
Reactions: _Anonymous_
You're referring to the immediate future post collapse of the Paxtani State.

I'm referring to the medium to long term future there. Those various factions of Fauji Foundation left & their commanders will have a fiefdom to look after . To what extent are you going to subsidise them & for how long ?

Look at the long term scenario for Paxtan . Their population today is 250 million poised to reach 300 million in a decade if not earlier.

The water scarcity is so acute it makes the list of the top 5 water stressed nations in the world. And that's in the present . What happens tomorrow when we divert waters from the Indus River Systems to our states since India especially North India is pretty water stressed too ?

Then there're the various tanzeems & the radicalization to consider. Add illiteracy , poor health & sanitation. Economically their industries are shutting down , agriculture even otherwise is unviable , with water scarcity it's going to be even more so .

Where do you think this mass of people will go to ? This isn't the 2010s anymore where people from sub Saharan Africa , Iraq , Libya , Syria etc ended up welcomed in the EU .

You're looking at masses of young men highly radicalized , well armed ( with small arms mfg becoming a cottage industry there not that it isn't ) running narco jehadi terrorist fiefdoms.

Paxtan eventually becomes an amorphous state with no central authority resembling the NW frontiers at the beginning of last millenium from where they lauch daily raids into what was then Paxtan & what is now NW India.

Our entire IB from J&K down to the Rann of Kutch will be highly militarised & clashes across the border will be daily affairs spilling onto our territory frequently or waged on their lands.

This will be a replay of the old classic pastoral nomadic vs sedentary population dynamic. Most of our energy & focus will go towards meeting this threat.

In the meanwhile BD explodes & the after effects are felt in our NE where pretty soon the Bengali Muslims in Assam who're galloping towards the 50% + population mark & having achieved it will look to surpass it soon achieving 60% .

The native Assamese won't sit quiet for obvious reasons & voila ! We've the makings of a major insurgency there with the Bengali Muslims finding sanctuary & support across the border.

Before you realise it the same situation is replicated in WB & since these vermin have spread across towns & cities in India you can expect problems to crop up everywhere.

Problems would be an extremely polite way to describe the situation & as this issue progresses it gets inter woven with traditional Hindu Muslim animosities & you're looking at a full blown civil war .

Into this now try to visualise how & where those narco jihadi tanzeems from Paxtan fit in !

What I'm describing isn't some cheap plot from a pulp fiction novel but a very realistic scenario set to unfold anywhere between 2-3 decades from now likely earlier.

It's something I've thought about long & hard. I can't seem to come up with any plausible scenario which isn't dire to our existence .

Oh yes for the purpose of a realistic scenario I've considered the Sino US war over Taiwan to have resulted in a Pyrrhic victory for the US with China split into 3-4 nations , the Gulf states lose their importance as oil as a commodity now longer rules the roost , EU is economically devasted after resuming the war in Ukraine against Russia defeating it but only barely & now have to face down Islamic hordes they've imported with a belligerent native population baying for their blood given the economic downturn , loss of confidence in the state as the social contract between the state & the citizens has long ceased to be functional or even trustworthy.

In other words the rest of the world have their own fish to fry which leaves us open to do pretty much what we want to . However the odds we face are daunting.

Check if you can wargame this differently.
China collapsing into 3-4 countries? Civil war in India? Frankly your situations are fantastical.

Bangladeshi are a threat in WB and NE. Elsewhere they dont stand a chance. In any so called civil war between Hindus and Muslims it will be a one sided massacre and the side being massacred aren't going to be the Hindus. We totally dominate the government, military, police services along eith having pretty potent groups such as the VHP, RSS, Bajrang Dal etc. Before anyone here accuses other of being soft or something I implore you to remember 2002 Gujarat where the VHP and RSS were so brutal and inflicted the most amazing cruelties on Muslims. If the Bangladeshis attempt to act up elsewhere in India especially in RSS/Bajrang Dal strongholds such as UP, Karnataka, Gujarat, MH they will be very badly and publicly massacred along with any Muslim who may choose to join them.

The real threat are one off large scale terrorist attacks sponsored by ISI sleeper cells from BD and Nepal.
Bruh. If we bomb Karachi and their oil depots, even with Saudi support they can't even fight for 2 weeks. Because how the hell will Saudi ships deposite oil to them? And how exactly they plan to fight without oil? Lol.
 
China collapsing into 3-4 countries? Civil war in India? Frankly your situations are fantastical.

Bangladeshi are a threat in WB and NE. Elsewhere they dont stand a chance. In any so called civil war between Hindus and Muslims it will be a one sided massacre and the side being massacred aren't going to be the Hindus. We totally dominate the government, military, police services along eith having pretty potent groups such as the VHP, RSS, Bajrang Dal etc. Before anyone here accuses other of being soft or something I implore you to remember 2002 Gujarat where the VHP and RSS were so brutal and inflicted the most amazing cruelties on Muslims. If the Bangladeshis attempt to act up elsewhere in India especially in RSS/Bajrang Dal strongholds such as UP, Karnataka, Gujarat, MH they will be very badly and publicly massacred along with any Muslim who may choose to join them.

The real threat are one off large scale terrorist attacks sponsored by ISI sleeper cells from BD and Nepal.

Bruh. If we bomb Karachi and their oil depots, even with Saudi support they can't even fight for 2 weeks. Because how the hell will Saudi ships deposite oil to them? And how exactly they plan to fight without oil? Lol.

No. Blood and gore is different then hoodlism and civil force. Radicals are trained in madrassas, mentally for this.
Even in 2002, switch the sides at godhra station. And then imagine the scale of riots. It will be far more than what you saw. Hindus have given up on the sword a long time ago. Few exceptions won't change the things.

And this is w/o factoring in the insiders.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: RationalGuy
Due to Trump sanctions if the economy is doing bad, like 4-5% of GDP and Modi has nothing to show by 2029 we can definitely expect Modi to attack Pakistan and take some land probably just 10 square kms, just to win the elections. At the same time Chinese would be ready by 2027 to take over Taiwan, US would be happy as you are keeping the Chinese border busy, all this provided the Americans are not Afghanistan.

And by 2028 I’m pretty sure Pakistan will give us enough opportunities for such an eventuality.
 
Tick Tok Tick Tok

We have already started work on DAMS for containing water on our side. It will take till 2027-2028 for some of those projects to start showing its effects on Pakistan. If “abrogation of IWT” is an act of war — we should already have been at war over water.

This looks like a diversion to me, though they might still bank on this narrative when they attack.

Also, given the destruction we dealt them on May 9-10, they will want to fully recover from that before attacking again - I guess that’s where US $ is going now in full force .

The main questions is probably this —

From a capability standpoint (considering how their defensive systems performed during our attack, I think they will look towards US based defensive systems. Now, how fast can they get them? A lot of things are being moved to Ukraine - can Pakistan get a bite of that pie?
 
Last edited:
Another interesting area is their offensive capabilities — even for offensive purposes, their missiles and rockets did pretty horribly — our AD systems took out all that mattered. Will Pak get some kind of upgraded offensive weapons from China/Turkey this time? What they basically need is a deterrence against Brahmos - what system(s) can give them this?

These two things will have a direct consequence on the timing of their offensive, the better their preparation the quicker they will strike.

Side question: When is the mid-term election in US? Pretty sure Pak will want to get this done while Trump is still around!
 
Last edited: