Ukraine - Russia Conflict

Jaymax

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Apr 1, 2019
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Can Someone explain, Why is Germany acting like this?
what does germany want?
Our Kraut friends are afraid of pissing off Russia too much. Biden is sitting on the other side of the lake sucking on Russian oil hoses like its Putin's member. 2 major indian refiners are processing Russian oil to almost max capacity and all of it is going to the US.

Germany on the other hand is supposed to reduce energy dependence on Russian oil and of all things go nuclear. Germany like most of the west is in a tight spot economically. To deter Russians, it will need a massive spending spree money that is needed elsewhere. So Germany was holding out on sending Tanks which Moscow would see as a direct provocation.

Recent events however have made Germany think again. Ukraine is outgunned and bleeding men. Russia is systematically degrading Ukraine's forces on the static lines. The only way to break this logjam is to give Ukraine some capacity to break the lines and conduct mobile warfare. Hence the tanks.

US put a lot of pressure on Germany to give leopards. Common sense dictates Ukraine operate a single tank type. The cheapest option is the leopard. But most of Leopard 1s still around are in storage and will need a bit of work to fight again.
you need to sanction the buyer not the seller. isnt that how CAATSA works?
US will buy from India and sanction India. sounds logical. :LOL:
US wont sanction Indian oil since its buying most of it.

 

BMD

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you need to sanction the buyer not the seller. isnt that how CAATSA works?
US will buy from India and sanction India. sounds logical. :LOL:
Doesn't work that way. Private companies operate a free market system, the US is not buying from you, private US companies are. The only way to stop them doing that is via sanctions on India, which may become inevitable if the killing in Ukraine is to prevented.
 

Jaymax

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3rd Rock from the Sun
Germany has already said that they will not buy Natural gas from Russia.
So, why was this initial hesitation to send leopard tanks to ukraine?

When you are in Moscow's reach and you have systematically reduced defense capacity (so called Peace Dividend), you play nice with Moscow.

The initial plan was to slow the Russians and make them talk. Not to arm Ukraine to smash the Russians. What does Russia do when it sees Tanks going to Ukraine. Its very tempting to do a preemptive strike especially if you are Russia and you are desperate. That brings a risk of a NATO Russia war. No one wants that. No one.

The plan was to keep the escalations under a threshold that wont tip Russia over. When you hear Dmitry Medvedev threaten nuclear war its not because he has lost his mind, its an exercise in brinkmanship. He is reminding NATO that Russia wont go down alone.

Its a tight rope to walk with no perfect answers.
 
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BMD

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Germany has already said that they will not buy Natural gas from Russia.
So, why was this initial hesitation to send leopard tanks to ukraine?
Historical sensibilities and guilt over WWII. Even though Russia was allied to the Nazis for the first 2 years of the war, and feels no guilt whatsoever. They have given other countries the go ahead to send Leopard 2s though. Leopard 2s being the most sensible choice because it is the most common and most widely supported tank within Europe in terms of spares and training.
 
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BMD

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Do you even read? CSG is looking to buy machines to build ammo. Sigh... this is a waste of time. Lets wait a few months and see who is right.
I know who is right, Russia is operating a war economy with workers pulling 110 hours per week with no overtime pay and still needing to source ammo from Iran and North Korea. The West has not even started to stretch its legs yet, it's just yawning at the moment because Russia is boring them. The so-called 'lengthy delivery times' can also be bypassed by the government ordering them to be placed front of the queue for lathes etc.
 
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BMD

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Why not Sanctions the Consumers( Pvt. Cos)?
Doesn't work that way and it would be the same difference even if it did. Sanctions being placed on Indian petroleum exports is the same as preventing private companies buying from India. The sanctions are said to have been placed on India, but you could view them as being placed on private companies if you wanted, the difference is the same either way, it's entirely arbitrary.
Meh! I don't buy this.
Pragmatism Overrules Historical sensibilities & guilt.
Not for Germany it doesn't. In most Western countries holocaust denial is something that's frowned upon, in Germany it's an actual crime. Also distributing Nazi propaganda is a crime. How serious?


 
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BMD

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Germany was a Russian ally for a long time, and looked at the EU as their own empire. So they do not like that other EU members are partnering with the US and providing aid to Ukraine.
That's a little steep. I think they wanted to work with Russia whilst Russia was behaving itself and foolishly made themselves too dependant on Russian gas during that time.
 
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jetray

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Germany was a Russian ally for a long time, and looked at the EU as their own empire. So they do not like that other EU members are partnering with the US and providing aid to Ukraine.
That's a little steep. I think they wanted to work with Russia whilst Russia was behaving itself and foolishly made themselves too dependant on Russian gas during that time.
well is it not obvious that US wants leopards to be sent so that it can sell/give abrams to those countries. germany's industry is slowly getting dismantled by US and they are pushing their products. Now if you end up saying abrams is heavier or some other technical reason the same would apply to leopards to a large extent.

The worse thing is when leopards get taken to cleaners by russians americans will be laughing their *censored* off and painting on every street why abrams is superior. It will be adding salt to wounds.
 

BMD

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well is it not obvious that US wants leopards to be sent so that it can sell/give abrams to those countries. germany's industry is slowly getting dismantled by US and they are pushing their products. Now if you end up saying abrams is heavier or some other technical reason the same would apply to leopards to a large extent.

The worse thing is when leopards get taken to cleaners by russians americans will be laughing their *censored* off and painting on every street why abrams is superior. It will be adding salt to wounds.
The Leopard is the most sensible tank choice for Ukraine, because it is the most common and most widely supported tank within Europe in terms of spares and training, as I've already mentioned. Other Western tanks like Challenger and Leclerc only have training support in their respective countries in Europe, and the M1 has no training support in Europe.

Leopards only can and will do better than T-XX tanks.
 
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jetray

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The Leopard is the most sensible tank choice for Ukraine, because it is the most common and most widely supported tank within Europe in terms of spares and training, as I've already mentioned. Other Western tanks like Challenger and Leclerc only have training support in their respective countries in Europe, and the M1 has no training support in Europe.

Leopards only can and will do better than T-XX tanks.
are you saying abrams is stationed in finland/ poland without having any spares or repair facility ? If ukraine has to win shouldnt it have the so called most technological advanced tank ? surprisingly the logic does not apply when russia does the same by sending t-72 or t80.
 

BMD

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are you saying abrams is stationed in finland/ poland without having any spares or repair facility ? If ukraine has to win shouldnt it have the so called most technological advanced tank ? surprisingly the logic does not apply when russia does the same by sending t-72 or t80.
There'll be some kind of provision for spares and repair for M1s yes, but not as much as for the Leopards, unless the US moves in more of such. There are also no training camps for M1s in Europe AFAIK. Like I posted earlier: