Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk

[suryakiran]

Then please, please, please complain to SEBI after the FY report comes in. Let's see what HAL does to its only customer. Or what HAL's only customer does to HAL.

The problem is a lot of people think the defence industry is just like the civilian industry.

Buddy, once its listed, it really does not matter. Either they comply or fly.

 

[randomradio]

Just like Army's WZT's, Tatra, bofors etc. I guess IAF want's it's Augusta, PC7, etc too.

Problems all institutions face. Even the US. Do you think HAL doesn't have skeletons in their closet?

 

[vstol Jockey]

With due respect, I beg to differ. You are talking about calling for special general body meeting or the likes. A person with 1 share, can ask questions regarding compliance and file a case against the company board.

Party A owns Company B. Company B has minority share holders and during the process, provides for financial leeways, which are not as per contract to Party A. This results in Party A getting benefits which are detrimental to the minority shareholders Company B, who would have got those benefits. This is a clear cut case of compliance.

In case, there were penalties but were waived under duress from Party A, this is also grounds for compliance. This can also be made into a case of financial fraud.

There can also be a case made of unfair trade practices, why is the Company B providing preferential treatment at the cost of minority shareholders to Party A.

Under the above scenarios, a court of law is not required. A shareholder can complain to SEBI. SEBI can initiate proceedings.

Unless, written into the contract that there are no penalties, the case will stand in front of SEBI. Of course, that opens a very different set of questions.

you are completely wrong. please read about the rights of shareholders and what is the minimum shareholding required to call for such a board meeting. Please read the difference between individual shareholders and shareholders acting as a combine.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Problems all institutions face. Even the US. Do you think HAL doesn't have skeletons in their closet?

I think I should introduce you to my extended family.you have the makings of a fine defense attorney. Except Your sheer dogmatism gets in the way, much more than your optimism. That's where my family comes in. They'd teach you the ropes of how to go about defending the indefensible.

 

[suryakiran]

you are completely wrong. please read about the rights of shareholders and what is the minimum shareholding required to call for such a board meeting. Please read the difference between individual shareholders and shareholders acting as a combine.

Dear sir

You are talking about calling a board meeting. Same is not necessary. I can assure you of the same. A complaint can be filed with SEBI if there is an issue of compliance or serious allegations of financial misconduct in a publicly listed company.

Without saying what I do, let me assure you, I have to be SEBI compliant in all my activities to such an extent, that, all phones lines in my home/office are automatically recorded and uploaded to SEBI compliant servers. Hence, my disclaimer at the top, when I mentioned that I hold shares of HAL.

 

[randomradio]

Buddy, once its listed, it really does not matter. Either they comply or fly.

I know. But I would love to see the MoD comply. Even they need to be brought down from their high horse. I think HAL shouldn't be given contracts on "udhaar" when the MoD doesn't have any money to pay for it.

For example, IAF won't be able to sign the contract with HAL for 83 LCAs, when money is earmarked for more Rafales.

So if there's something you don't like in the Annual Report that's coming up, I believe you should most definitely bring SEBI into the picture. Then IAF will put the LCA program on hold because whatever they have left after paying off HAL will most definitely go into fulfilling the higher priority programs first. And everybody knows foreign suppliers are always paid first. Then let's see what HAL's revenue will be like when they do not have an active fighter jet program until 2026 or so.

Or even better, it's possible MoF will be forced to earmark extra funds for the IAF in order to induct the LCAs. And since this currency manipulation within DPSUs will end, this will also hasten the privatisation of defence. ADA is also fed up by HAL, which is why they are looking for a private contractor instead.

It's not just HAL, a lot of DPSUs have pending bills. And there are also a whole lot of other private companies last year that have unpaid bills. In fact this is the first time that even private contractors were not paid.

Even the year before, after floating shares, MoD owed HAL over 9000 Cr. IIRC, HAL borrowed multiple times in the month of March 2018 alone.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Dear sir

You are talking about calling a board meeting. Same is not necessary. I can assure you of the same. A complaint can be filed with SEBI if there is an issue of compliance or serious allegations of financial misconduct in a publicly listed company.

Without saying what I do, let me assure you, I have to be SEBI compliant in all my activities to such an extent, that, all phones lines in my home/office are automatically recorded and uploaded to SEBI compliant servers. Hence, my disclaimer at the top, when I mentioned that I hold shares of HAL.

what you posted earlier and what you are posting now is different. Any person can take a company to cleaners if he has proof of financial wrong doings. You need not be a shareholder as that falls under other acts.

 

[suryakiran]

what you posted earlier and what you are posting now is different. Any person can take a company to cleaners if he has proof of financial wrong doings. You need not be a shareholder as that falls under other acts.

could you please point out the same. Will gladly correct it.

My point of share holders, was because of an opinion that because government holds close to 90% nothing can be done by minority shareholders.

 

[suryakiran]

I know. But I would love to see the MoD comply. Even they need to be brought down from their high horse. I think HAL shouldn't be given contracts on "udhaar" when the MoD doesn't have any money to pay for it.

For example, IAF won't be able to sign the contract with HAL for 83 LCAs, when money is earmarked for more Rafales.

So if there's something you don't like in the Annual Report that's coming up, I believe you should most definitely bring SEBI into the picture. Then IAF will put the LCA program on hold because whatever they have left after paying off HAL will most definitely go into fulfilling the higher priority programs first. And everybody knows foreign suppliers are always paid first. Then let's see what HAL's revenue will be like when they do not have an active fighter jet program until 2026 or so.

Or even better, it's possible MoF will be forced to earmark extra funds for the IAF in order to induct the LCAs. And since this currency manipulation within DPSUs will end, this will also hasten the privatisation of defence. ADA is also fed up by HAL, which is why they are looking for a private contractor instead.

It's not just HAL, a lot of DPSUs have pending bills. And there are also a whole lot of other private companies last year that have unpaid bills. In fact this is the first time that even private contractors were not paid.

Even the year before, after floating shares, MoD owed HAL over 9000 Cr. IIRC, HAL borrowed multiple times in the month of March 2018 alone.

Now, you are thinking. The question to be asked, which even @Milspec was talking about, is this.

If there are delays in payments, its ok. Its part and parcel of business. But, what is the remedy to this payment delay? Is there a financial liability, the absence of which is giving the leeway?

If no, why is there no penalty clause, while the MoD can levy a penalty on delayed deliveries.

The answer to PSU financial woes, lies in compliance. Not just productivity. Productivity can be improved, but there are lots of ways to kill a project.

 

[randomradio]

Now, you are thinking. The question to be asked, which even @Milspec was talking about, is this.

If there are delays in payments, its ok. Its part and parcel of business. But, what is the remedy to this payment delay? Is there a financial liability, the absence of which is giving the leeway?

If no, why is there no penalty clause, while the MoD can levy a penalty on delayed deliveries.

The answer to PSU financial woes, lies in compliance. Not just productivity. Productivity can be improved, but there are lots of ways to kill a project.

We are simply broke. IAF needs over 70,000 Cr every year for modernisation alone, but they get only half of that.

Penalties are pointless because of cost overruns and later you need to deal with inflated costs of after servicing and such. HAL will even sell the aircraft at a loss and later recoup it during after sales service. They even admitted to doing this in the Ecuador helicopter deal where they sold Dhruvs at less than cost of production.

The second problem is DPSUs deliberately delay projects in order to keep the business running for a longer time. When it comes to production, the workers themselves delay projects for the sake of overtime during delivery. And since these units are all under unions, these unions are too powerful for politicians to interfere in. And bureaucrats are paid off to shut up about it.

DPSUs are sh!tholes of corruption. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. That's why even today the armed forces prefer imports. When it comes to imports, they are in control, when it comes to indigenous products, DPSUs are in control. DPSUs have to go, the armed forces should be given full control, like it is in all developed countries.

 

[Milspec]

We are simply broke. IAF needs over 70,000 Cr every year for modernisation alone, but they get only half of that.

Penalties are pointless because of cost overruns and later you need to deal with inflated costs of after servicing and such. HAL will even sell the aircraft at a loss and later recoup it during after sales service. They even admitted to doing this in the Ecuador helicopter deal where they sold Dhruvs at less than cost of production.

The second problem is DPSUs deliberately delay projects in order to keep the business running for a longer time. When it comes to production, the workers themselves delay projects for the sake of overtime during delivery. And since these units are all under unions, these unions are too powerful for politicians to interfere in. And bureaucrats are paid off to shut up about it.

DPSUs are sh!tholes of corruption. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. That's why even today the armed forces prefer imports. When it comes to imports, they are in control, when it comes to indigenous products, DPSUs are in control. DPSUs have to go, the armed forces should be given full control, like it is in all developed countries.

All I would say is go and talk to technicians in a DPSU, all of your nonsensical conspiracy theories that you have concocted from hearsay will disappear, even better next time I am in India, I offer to take you on a visit to HAL and interact with officers and technicians in HAL. And given MES/ 11BRD is next door, not sure if I can get some interaction with IAF personnel, but sure as hell we have common contractors, and you can hear all about how brilliantly BRD's function. Let me know if interested.

 

[Milspec]

Problems all institutions face. Even the US. Do you think HAL doesn't have skeletons in their closet?

The difference being I do not gloss over corrupt practices of an organization like HAL, while you are waving "chalta hai" poms poms at MoD's.

 

[randomradio]

The difference being I do not gloss over corrupt practices of an organization like HAL, while you are waving "chalta hai" poms poms at MoD's.

I'm not supporting the MoD, I'm supporting the armed forces.

I believe, as Surya Kiran wants, you should take HAL's problems to SEBI, solve it overnight.

I suppose you won't have problems if all of HAL's programs are transferred to IAF's control, right? The same as it is in the US, where the Pentagon heads all programs.

 

[Ashwin]

PC-7 is indeed cheaper than HTT-40. If you think there was corruption involved, then you should push for a PIL in the SC.

Calling PC-7 cheaper compared to a massproduced and home build HTT-40 is just wrong. CAG report clearly says they used incorrect price benchmarks. No Special Maintenance Tools (SMTs)/Special Test Equipment (STE) not even Maintanance ToT !.



Army used the same kind of brain dead methodology to justify T-90 purchanse for 12 cr per tank without any support and ammo.

 

[randomradio]

Calling PC-7 cheaper compared to a massproduced and home build HTT-40 is just wrong. CAG report clearly says they used incorrect price benchmarks. No Special Maintenance Tools (SMTs)/Special Test Equipment (STE) not even Maintanance ToT !.

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Pray tell me how many HTT-40s have been "mass produced" to date? Do tell what are the costs for this "mass produced" HTT-40? Something that even HAL doesn't know until the IAF actually inducts the aircraft and flies it around for a few years.

Army used the same kind of brain dead methodology to justify T-90 purchanse for 12 cr per tank without any support and ammo.

Same as above. How do you know how much all of the above costs when even DRDO cannot even estimate those figures?

That clip you posted clearly says "it is not meant to measure the absolute expenditure."

Can you please tell me the cost of Arjun in 2038? DRDO would also love to know.

 

[Ashwin]

Pray tell me how many HTT-40s have been "mass produced" to date? Do tell what are the costs for this "mass produced" HTT-40? Something that even HAL doesn't know until the IAF actually inducts the aircraft and flies it around for a few years.

Then how did you deduced imported European aircraft is cheaper? Doesn't the same logic apply there? Common sense says Indian aircraft would be far cheaper on LCC.

I assumed you were referring to L1 bid of Pilatus and comments by 'unverified' sources thus showed how it's wrong according to CAG. No need to muddle it up.

Can you please tell me the cost of Arjun in 2038? DRDO would also love to know.

The comparison was against upgraded T-72 at that time.

 

[Sathya]

Solution is stop anymore BTA imports once HTT 40 is certified.

I hope HAL is allowed to improve the HTT 40 without insisting on IAF permission.

 

[suryakiran]

I believe, as Surya Kiran wants, you should take HAL's problems to SEBI, solve it overnight.

nothing gets solved overnight

 

[randomradio]

Then how did you deduced imported European aircraft is cheaper? Doesn't the same logic apply there? Common sense says Indian aircraft would be far cheaper on LCC.

Nope on both counts. The PC-7 has been built in the hundreds. Well over 600. Common sense says the PC-7 will be cheaper.

HTT-40 could have been cheaper had they started production this year. But if testing itself is delayed, then production is delayed, so escalation comes into the picture. And the PC-7's euro escalation is much smaller than HTT-40's rupee escalation.

The comparison was against upgraded T-72 at that time.

T-90 vs T-72? The T-90 is simply a modernised T-72.

 

[randomradio]

Solution is stop anymore BTA imports once HTT 40 is certified.

But until then, they should allow imports, right?

I hope HAL is allowed to improve the HTT 40 without insisting on IAF permission.

HAL is free to do whatever they want. But they are not free to force the IAF or MoD to release funds for that purpose.