Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Speedster1]

This upgrade which Russians are offering is derived from their Su-35 upgrade programme, known as Su-35SM. It will have GaN based AESA radar, QWIP based IRST, composite skin, better engines and reduction in frontal RCS with use of EWP.

By all accounts, the Su-57 still carries a GaAS AESA radar. I'd imagine any GaN antenna the Russians develop would first go onboard the Felon before anything else.

Now MiG apparently had offered an AESA Zhuk radar for the MiG-35. But the prog appears to have been scrapped after the jet failed to make the cut.

And EWP for Su-35 is a stretch. Structural RAS/RAM for the airframe or even spray-on coatings for the weapons I could see. But, EWP? Nope.

 

[Rajput Lion]

By all accounts, the Su-57 still carries a GaAS AESA radar. I'd imagine any GaN antenna the Russians develop would first go onboard the Felon before anything else.

GaN is part of M modernisation plan.

Now MiG apparently had offered an AESA Zhuk radar for the MiG-35. But the prog appears to have been scrapped after the jet failed to make the cut.

Not even in contention.

And EWP for Su-35 is a stretch. Structural RAS/RAM for the airframe or even spray-on coatings for the weapons I could see. But, EWP? Nope.

Russians want to reduce loaded Su-35SM's RCS(with 4 BVRs) to -30dBsm or less. For that they need a new engine with integrated front/rear Radar-Blockers and an External Weapons Pods housed between its 2 engines holding at least 4 BVRs. They also want to use same RAM/RAS of Su-57 in Su-35SM upgrade.

All-in-all, Su-35SM upgrade is very comprehensive and if done as planned would convert Su-35S to a minus 5th gen fighter from current 4++ gen one.

We may or may not accept this upgrade path for some of our MKIs, but about actually acquiring Su-35SM like what Russia wants? No thanks.

 

[Speedster1]

Russians want to reduce loaded Su-35SM's RCS(with 4 BVRs) to -30dBsm or less. For that they need a new engine with integrated front/rear Radar-Blockers and an External Weapons Pods housed between its 2 engines holding at least 4 BVRs. They also want to use same RAM/RAS of Su-57 in Su-35SM upgrade.

How could they possibly place radar blockers on the compressor face or the exhaust nozzles? The nozzles are among the hottest parts of any jet engine, after all.

Su-57 reportedly has a FSS radome. So Su-35 might get a more rounded version of the same. That's plausible.

But EWP is news to me. I don't believe there are any cropped fin versions of the R-77 and R-27 AAMs either. So would this even be feasible?

 

[babablacksheep]

How could they possibly place radar blockers on the compressor face or the exhaust nozzles? The nozzles are among the hottest parts of any jet engine, after all.

Su-57 reportedly has a FSS radome. So Su-35 might get a more rounded version of the same. That's plausible.

But EWP is news to me. I don't believe there are any cropped fin versions of the R-77 and R-27 AAMs either. So would this even be feasible?

Unless it actually happens, just consider it his fantasy for now.

 

[Rajput Lion]

How could they possibly place radar blockers on the compressor face or the exhaust nozzles? The nozzles are among the hottest parts of any jet engine, after all.

They plan to change the engines to Su-57's Item 117, from current 117S. The former has in-built radar blockers. Russians want most of the tech of Su-57S percolate to Su-35SM.

Su-57 reportedly has a FSS radome. So Su-35 might get a more rounded version of the same. That's plausible.

Same RAM & RAS as well.

But EWP is news to me. I don't believe there are any cropped fin versions of the R-77 and R-27 AAMs either. So would this even be feasible?

They've a plethora of BVRs lined up for Su-57's IWB. They could be used by Su-35 in its EWP. Years ago Sukhoi did plan for EWP, but because of lack of funds, they forlorned that program.

If any 4.5 gen jet can accomodate EWP(between its engines), it's Flanker because of its huge size and lifting body along with gap between both of its podded engines. Unlike a lot of people who thought that the Flanker would get outdated in the modern aerial battlespace, thanks to its size and growth potential, it'll remain potent for quite some time to come.

Unless it actually happens, just consider it his fantasy for now.

Absolutely. No need to take my words as Gospel.

 

[Speedster1]

Years ago Sukhoi did plan for EWP, but because of lack of funds, they forlorned that program.

I find this very intriguing.

And we all know that the IAF's risk appetite for fancy tech is low. Unless the RuAF proves EWP is viable on Flanker family jets, I doubt it will bite.

 

[randomradio]

Russians want to reduce loaded Su-35SM's RCS(with 4 BVRs) to -30dBsm or less. For that they need a new engine with integrated front/rear Radar-Blockers and an External Weapons Pods housed between its 2 engines holding at least 4 BVRs. They also want to use same RAM/RAS of Su-57 in Su-35SM upgrade.

All-in-all, Su-35SM upgrade is very comprehensive and if done as planned would convert Su-35S to a minus 5th gen fighter from current 4++ gen one.

We may or may not accept this upgrade path for some of our MKIs, but about actually acquiring Su-35SM like what Russia wants? No thanks.

Their EWP plans for a Silent Flanker died years ago. Anyway, can't have anything "silent" with humongous vertical fins.

The Su-35SM is currently only a rumor. For now, with the exception of avionics upgrades and maybe replacing some of the titanium with composites, there's nothing big possible on it anymore.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Their EWP plans for a Silent Flanker died years ago. Anyway, can't have anything "silent" with humongous vertical fins.

The goal is to reduce frontal RCS to the level of stage-1 Su-57 with EWP, new engines and stealth materials. All-aspect RCS won't come anywhere near Su-57.

The Su-35SM is currently only a rumor. For now, with the exception of avionics upgrades and maybe replacing some of the titanium with composites, there's nothing big possible on it anymore.

Su-35SM has already been mentioned in UAC's internal documents. It's on.

 

[Hydra]

We may or may not accept this upgrade path for some of our MKIs, but about actually acquiring Su-35SM like what Russia wants? No thanks.

MKI is getting old, no matter how much you upgrade its airframe is getting old day by day. At one point you will need to retire it, either by 2040 or 2050. You will need an air superiority heavy fighter to replace MKI. It should be either SU35 or newly built upgraded MKI or F15EX or a new fighterjet altogether akin to F22. Not replacing MKI with another heavy class aircraft is the repeation of the the mistake IAF did with Mig25,ie retiring it without successor Mig31.

 

[Rajput Lion]

MKI is getting old, no matter how much you upgrade its airframe is getting old day by day. At one point you will need to retire it, either by 2040 or 2050. You will need an air superiority heavy fighter to replace MKI. It should be either SU35 or newly built upgraded MKI or F15EX or a new fighterjet altogether akin to F22. Not replacing MKI with another heavy class aircraft is the repeation of the the mistake IAF did with Mig25,ie retiring it without successor Mig31.

Su-35S/SM or F-15EX are not better than MKI. MKI is the best heavy-weight 4.5 gen jet out there. That's why we'll never ever buy Su-35 or F-15EX. Newly built MKIs of UPG. standard are our best bet.

If we join FCAS then NGF would be our MKI replacement. If not then, maybe we will replace MKI with Su-57M2I or our own domestic 6th gen AHCA. Nothing is set in stone at the moment.

 

[Hydra]

If we join FCAS then NGF would be our MKI replacement.

No. It still will be a medium category aircraft among stealth aircraft arena.

If not then, maybe we will replace MKI with Su-57M2I.

Not required.

 

[Hydra]

own domestic 6th gen AHCA. Nothing is set in stone at the moment.

We need a heavy class engine program for that. The ongoing chatter of joint development will serve for TE medium class, it cant even used for a proper SE stealth aircraft.

If we have desi 160-180 KN engine with enough electrical power, yeas the aircraft built around that engine will serve as our MKI replacement. And good thing about such engine will be we can make MK1/MK2 replacement SE stealth aircraft.

 

[randomradio]

The goal is to reduce frontal RCS to the level of stage-1 Su-57 with EWP, new engines and stealth materials. All-aspect RCS won't come anywhere near Su-57.

Su-35SM has already been mentioned in UAC's internal documents. It's on.

There's only a commonality upgrade to match the Su-57, nothing about serious airframe changes. It defeats the purpose of operating a 4th gen alongside 5th gen.

 

[Speedster1]

The IAF plans to MUM-T the MKI in the future. FUFA could serve as an A2A 'remote carrier' similar to the LM Longshot. Building on the Ghatak experience, development should be much faster, imo.

Better option than EWP in terms of increased loadouts and tactical flexibility.

 

[randomradio]

The IAF plans to MUM-T the MKI in the future. FUFA could serve as an A2A 'remote carrier' similar to the LM Longshot. Building on the Ghatak experience, development should be much faster, imo.

Better option than EWP in terms of increased loadouts and tactical flexibility.

Yes, any stealth requirement on Flankers will come via stealth drones. The IAF has not yet announced their plans for loyal wingman drones in the Warrior class, so let's see when that happens.

FUFA and Ghatak are for "autonomous" missions though, not loyal wingman. They will integrate with fighter jets and other "semi-autonomous" drones for more complex missions.

FUFA's essentially a stealth fighter drone meant for A2A and SEAD/DEAD. It's likely to be in the Rafale's class and will be powered by two Kaveri derivatives with supersonic performance.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The IAF plans to MUM-T the MKI in the future. FUFA could serve as an A2A 'remote carrier' similar to the LM Longshot. Building on the Ghatak experience, development should be much faster, imo.

Yes.

Better option than EWP in terms of increased loadouts and tactical flexibility.

When years ago, I said here that IAF wants to reduce MKI's RCS further by changing its metal panels with a composite one, most members here mocked me and called this exercise as "putting lipstick on a pig", lol. But then one day, MKI's latest composite RAS surfaced and everyone accepted that how much we're working on reducing its RCS.

Russians are going ahead with their Su-35SM, whether we accept the upgrade package or not! If you remember many Western propagandists also said that Russia won't buy Su-57 until we procure it. But despite our leaving the program, Su-57 is still a reality and close to 50 jets are flying in VVS.

Personally, I want IAF to stick with our domestic UPG. upgrade path rather than accepting the Russian Su-35SM one but with the exception of engines. I want MKI with Item 177(the more powerful 158KN version). Let's see what path we choose!

 

[Speedster1]

When years ago, I said here that IAF wants to reduce MKI's RCS further by changing its metal panels with a composite one, most members here mocked me and called this exercise as "putting lipstick on a pig", lol. But then one day, MKI's latest composite RAS surfaced and everyone accepted that how much we're working on reducing its RCS.

I agree there are advantages to replacing metallic airframe parts (canards, airbrake, nose cone et all) with lighter, more durable composites. Applied RAM treatments are also par for the course.

If you recall I have been hankering (fwiw) for the IAF to fit band pass/RSS radome, conformal weapons stns on the MKI.

But I later realized that the cost would probably be too high for the benefits accrued.

Plus HAL would've had to seek permission from the oem for a deep structural upgrade as it would void warranties, etc.

That said, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that they are working on RAS elements for MKI UPG.

If the Russians are indeed integrating EWP on the Su-35SM, it's reasonable to expect that the MKI might someday get them too. Just that I couldn't find any open source info on this.

 

[randomradio]

Is there a misunderstanding somewhere? RAM was supposed to come with MKI MLU program back in the 2010s. DRDO had made one back then for LCA, but it was never used on MKI. Now that the MLU is back on, the RAM program is back. DRDO's old RAM was used on LCA though, 2010-11.

Composites were progressively enhanced during production. As per HAL, they have used as much as possible without needing to put the aircraft through flight testing. IAF doesn't want anymore changes either, so there's not likely to be any addition of RAS. Plus any new changes will delay the program, so it's not a priority.

 

[randomradio]

conformal weapons stns

Nothing conformal on the MKI.

Composites for elevators, rudders, ailerons, landing gear doors, fairings, wing spars etc.

 

[randomradio]

That said, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that they are working on RAS elements for MKI UPG.

No RAS, no re-certification. Or else we would have had internal MAWS and jammer instead of podded ones.

If the Russians are indeed integrating EWP on the Su-35SM, it's reasonable to expect that the MKI might someday get them too. Just that I couldn't find any open source info on this.

Dead program. There were plans for a flush-mounted conformal weapons bay within the nascelle tunnel, but it did not go anywhere, performance was trash. So it was junked in favor of Berkut/Mig 1.44 continuation, but even that died after the SU died. There was also a detachable conformal fuel tank program that also got junked back then. We are talking 80s/90s.

If there's a plan for external pods, then that's just pointless for the Flanker. So, no, no RAS for MKI, no EWP for Su-35S. It's just silly internet rumors.

The real alternative is to use metamaterials on MKI once it becomes available via AMCA. But nothing more than RAM today.