Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

The Armenia deal is obviously fake. What they are looking to do is upgrade their existing Flankers with Indian tech.

The parallel upgrade path for the IAF's MKI is also likely fake. It's all based on unnamed sources and only 1 mainstream newspaper published it. What gives it away is they are talking about a Russian EW suite, which is frankly a dumb proposition. So it looks more like Russian/HAL lobby work.

At best, there may be a smaller set of upgrades coming in from Russia to keep the old MKI configuration more relevant until those jets are MLU'd at a later date, if the news is real. The export-grade Irbis-E is totally trash compared to a proper GaN radar. It has decent detection range, not better than Uttam Mk2, but tracking range is ridiculously low. It cannot function to its greatest potential without an external long range acquisition radar supporting it, that's where their IADS comes in. So you can see why neither Irbis E nor the Russian EW suite make the proposition realistic, any core avionics must remain Indian. But if Bars gets a new frontend upgrade, that would be great, it can definitely use a bit more power. But this is also unlikely to be pursued.

New weapons, definitely.

 

[Hydra]

Is there any chance that we are re opening MKI line? We need to replace old MKI which aren't going to upgraded to super sukhoi standard, and it will be better if we are having few MKI with growler type EW attack capability.


Please don't tell that Rfale can do what Growler is doing on EW. @Rajput Lion

 

[randomradio]

This is what the Armenians are actually looking at.

Armenia seeks India’s help to upgrade its Su-30 fighters

The development comes on the back of Armenia ordering rocket systems, artillery guns and weapon locating radars from India| India News

www.hindustantimes.com

“We are looking at modernising our Su-30s with the help of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as it has a lot of expertise in the field,” Colonel Hovhannes Vardanyan, who heads Armenia’s Air Force Department, told HT on the sidelines of multilateral Tarang Shakti 2024 air combat drills that concluded at the Jodhpur airbase on September 13.

Armenia's interest in MKI rumors started ever since they tried to buy more Su-30SMs but were denied by the Russians. Even their 4 SMs are currently not equipped with weapons, so the Armenians are hoping India will supply weapons meant for MKI. But this is how the rumor started, that Armenia will instead buy MKIs, even though HAL does not have export clearance. There's no guarantee Russia will allow it either due to whatever tensions they have with Armenia.

The MKI isn't a good option for Armenia compared to LCA.

They can in fact lease half a squadron of Mk1As before replacing them with Mk2s at a later date. Or they can outright buy 12 Mk1As, it will cost no more than $1B with weapons, spares, and ground equipment.

In any case they are not going to get upgraded MKIs anytime before the IAF will. Virupaksha will only begin flight testing on MKI in 2028 and will take 2 years to finish. Even with export clearance, they can only buy the standard MKIs.

But this is specific to Armenia alone. As soon as the war started in Ukraine, I had pointed out that Russia can use India as a base of production for global exports and bypassing CAATSA, so it's possible for export clearance to eventually come over time, but it's no longer a smart purchase for any new customer without existing Flanker infrastructure. Only Indonesia and Vietnam make sense. But LCA is still the better option.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Is there any chance that we are re opening MKI line? We need to replace old MKI which aren't going to upgraded to super sukhoi standard, and it will be better if we are having few MKI with growler type EW attack capability.


Please don't tell that Rfale can do what Growler is doing on EW. @Rajput Lion

MKI line is definitely going to be reopened for our own jets plus exports to friendly nations.

Regarding Growler version? Unfortunately, IAF so far hasn't given it a go ahead. They think that MKI with SAP-14 and in future EL/L-8251 Scorpius-EJ Escort Jammers, Sky Shied pods for stand-off jamming or our own 'Talon Shield' pods by Data Patterns for high-band jamming(along with DRDO HBJs) would fulfill the role of Growler without actually turning MKI into a dedicated EA version.

The Armenia deal is obviously fake. What they are looking to do is upgrade their existing Flankers with Indian tech.

The parallel upgrade path for the IAF's MKI is also likely fake. It's all based on unnamed sources and only 1 mainstream newspaper published it. What gives it away is they are talking about a Russian EW suite, which is frankly a dumb proposition. So it looks more like Russian/HAL lobby work.

At best, there may be a smaller set of upgrades coming in from Russia to keep the old MKI configuration more relevant until those jets are MLU'd at a later date, if the news is real. The export-grade Irbis-E is totally trash compared to a proper GaN radar. It has decent detection range, not better than Uttam Mk2, but tracking range is ridiculously low. It cannot function to its greatest potential without an external long range acquisition radar supporting it, that's where their IADS comes in. So you can see why neither Irbis E nor the Russian EW suite make the proposition realistic, any core avionics must remain Indian. But if Bars gets a new frontend upgrade, that would be great, it can definitely use a bit more power. But this is also unlikely to be pursued.

New weapons, definitely.

Let me tell you something which I haven't revealed yet. IAF has already rejected PESA radar like Irbis-E for MKI upgrade. This upgrade which Russians are offering is derived from their Su-35 upgrade programme, known as Su-35SM. It will have GaN based AESA radar, QWIP based IRST, composite skin, better engines and reduction in frontal RCS with use of EWP. It's a very comprehensive offer. Apart from this, Russians want us to buy 40-50 Su-35SM. Both offers are on the table.

PS: Armenia export talks are also on. The news isn't BS.

 

[Speedster1]

MKI line is definitely going to be reopened for our own jets plus exports to friendly nations.

Regarding Growler version? Unfortunately, IAF so far hasn't given it a go ahead. They think that MKI with SAP-14 and in future EL/L-8251 Scorpius-EJ Escort Jammers, Sky Shied pods for stand-off jamming or our own 'Talon Shield' pods by Data Patterns for high-band jamming(along with DRDO HBJs) would fulfill the role of Growler without actually turning MKI into a dedicated EA version.

Let me tell you something which I haven't revealed yet. IAF has already rejected PESA radar like Irbis-E for MKI upgrade. This upgrade which Russians are offering is derived from their Su-35 upgrade programme, known as Su-35SM. It will have GaN based AESA radar, QWIP based IRST, composite skin, better engines and reduction in frontal RCS with use of EWP. It's a very comprehensive offer. Apart from this, Russians want us to buy 40-50 Su-35SM. Both offers are on the table.

PS: Armenia export talks are also on. The news isn't BS.

I suspect most of the new tech on the Su-35SM is derived from Su-57. This is certainly not without precedent. The F-16V B70 and J-10C both borrow tech from the F-35 and J-20 respectively.

Since we are reportedly buying 114 Rafales anyway, what good would Su-35s do? In any case, the IAF is already top-heavy. They capped the MKI fleet at 272 for this reason.

I agree the Su-35S has performed quite well in Ukraine. But it brings very little to the table (better EW, cockpit displays, radar, engine) over and above the existing MKI.

MKI UPG will certainly outmatch anything the Russians might put on the Su-35SM.

 

[randomradio]

Let me tell you something which I haven't revealed yet. IAF has already rejected PESA radar like Irbis-E for MKI upgrade. This upgrade which Russians are offering is derived from their Su-35 upgrade programme, known as Su-35SM. It will have GaN based AESA radar, QWIP based IRST, composite skin, better engines and reduction in frontal RCS with use of EWP. It's a very comprehensive offer. Apart from this, Russians want us to buy 40-50 Su-35SM. Both offers are on the table.

PS: Armenia export talks are also on. The news isn't BS.

Okay, let's see if all three happen. Su-57 with MKIzation, Su-35SM for India, and Armenia.

The Su-35SM deal for new jets is dumber than the Irbis upgrade though. It's better to buy Su-57 instead. In any case, the Su-35SM upgrade, if carried out, will basically be a copy of the Su-57's avionics. But this defeats the purpose of MKIzation of Su-57, that's how contradictory this is. On the one hand we change Su-57's avionics with DRDO's, but on the other we stick Su-57's Russian avionics on MKI and then buy Su-35SM too. How does that even work? It's actually ridiculous. One would imagine we won't buy Su-35SM and that Su-57 and MKI will carry the same DRDO avionics instead. Worst case, operate the Su-57 with Russian avionics in isolation.

And I was dismissing media reports about Irbis for having Irbis in the article. I already know the IAF rejected Irbis, they did it many years ago.

My position is we won't buy Su-57. Even the Su-60 is suspect. And that we will stick with Indian avionics for MKI. Definitely no Su-35SM. And Armenia is better off buying Su-30SM on the cheap from Russia itself, we can stick some of our weapons on it.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I suspect most of the new tech on the Su-35SM is derived from Su-57. This is certainly not without precedent. The F-16V B70 and J-10C both borrow tech from the F-35 and J-20 respectively.

Since we are reportedly buying 114 Rafales anyway, what good would Su-35s do? In any case, the IAF is already top-heavy. They capped the MKI fleet at 272 for this reason.

I agree the Su-35S has performed quite well in Ukraine. But it brings very little to the table (better EW, cockpit displays, radar, engine) over and above the existing MKI.

MKI UPG will certainly outmatch anything the Russians might put on the Su-35SM.

Okay, let's see if all three happen. Su-57 with MKIzation, Su-35SM for India, and Armenia.

The Su-35SM deal for new jets is dumber than the Irbis upgrade though. It's better to buy Su-57 instead. In any case, the Su-35SM upgrade, if carried out, will basically be a copy of the Su-57's avionics. But this defeats the purpose of MKIzation of Su-57, that's how contradictory this is. On the one hand we change Su-57's avionics with DRDO's, but on the other we stick Su-57's Russian avionics on MKI and then buy Su-35SM too. How does that even work? It's actually ridiculous. One would imagine we won't buy Su-35SM and that Su-57 and MKI will carry the same DRDO avionics instead. Worst case, operate the Su-57 with Russian avionics in isolation.

And I was dismissing media reports about Irbis for having Irbis in the article. I already know the IAF rejected Irbis, they did it many years ago.

My position is we won't buy Su-57. Even the Su-60 is suspect. And that we will stick with Indian avionics for MKI. Definitely no Su-35SM. And Armenia is better off buying Su-30SM on the cheap from Russia itself, we can stick some of our weapons on it.

We won't buy Su-35SM, but IAF thinks our own domestic upgrade timeline for MKI is too late. So they want a parallel upgrade that has been offered by Russia. It isn't set in stone, but they are considering. If IAF was impressed with MKI's prowess post Balakot/Swift Retreat, they are completely in awe of its performance post last year Ops. It was our only top jet that didn't get shot down. There was time when it dug down deep and even rescued our Rafales, otherwise more than 1 would have got shot down on that day.

Re: Su-57. It's a lock now. E or M1 or M2I. Time will tell.

 

[Hydra]

It was our only top jet that didn't get shot down. There was time when it dug down deep and even rescued our Rafales, otherwise more than 1 would have got shot down on that day.

Re: Su-57. It's a lock now. E or M1 or M2I. Time will tell.

We didn't lose any manned jet by enemy fire during op sindoor.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We didn't lose any manned jet by enemy fire during op sindoor.

Both IAF and our CDS acknowledged that losses are part of combat. We lost 3 jets and 1 Heron Drone. MKI was our sole jet which defeated all PL-15s and HQ-9 SAMs. Plus what it did to Pak with BrahMos-A(being the only jet capable of firing this missile), makes it the MVP of our last year's Ops sans none.

 

[Hydra]

IAF and both our CDS ackowledged that combats are part of equation. We lost 3 jets and 1 Heron Drone. MKI was our sole jet which defeated all PL-15s and HQ-9 SAMs. Plus what it with BrahMos-A(being the only jet capable of firing this missile), makes it the MVP of our last year's Ops sans none.

They admitted loss, but not what sort of loss we envountered exactly . Hellfire, multiple time had told this that"loss was UAVs". I have more trust on him & @vstol Jockey than anyone else in this forum when comes to inside info.

 

[Rajput Lion]

They admitted loss, but not what sort of loss we envountered exactly . Hellfire, multiple time had told this that"loss was UAVs". I have more trust on him & @vstol Jockey than anyone else in this forum when comes to inside info.

Did I ever ask anyone here to ever believe me? Believe your conscience and in the end Dharma and truth always prevails.

PS: Rafale and Mig-29 shot down was certain. M-2000 and Heron likely too.

 

[Hydra]

PS: Rafale and Mig-29 shot down was certain. M-2000 and Heron likely too.

We don't have any circumstantial evidence for that.

 

[darshan978]

We don't have any circumstantial evidence for that.

We most likely lost 2 jets. one in bhatinda and another one in jammu which was most probably mig-29
and Heron-tp drone which many po0rkies brand it as su-30 mki due to 2 vertical fins which are just twin-tailboom

 

[Rajput Lion]

We most likely lost 2 jets. one in bhatinda and another one in jammu which was most probably mig-29

Rafale in Bhatinda & Mig-29 in Ramban are most certain.

and Heron-tp drone which many po0rkies brand it as su-30 mki due to 2 vertical fins which are just twin-tailboom

P o r kies are fools. The footage from Akhnoor did show Heron-TP wreckage.

The above 3 are absolutely confirmed. But M-2000 wreckage at Pampore may or may not be doctored.

 

[Speedster1]

We won't buy Su-35SM, but IAF thinks our own domestic upgrade timeline for MKI is too late. So they want a parallel upgrade that has been offered by Russia. It isn't set in stone, but they are considering. If IAF was impressed with MKI's prowess post Balakot/Swift Retreat, they are completely in awe of its performance post last year Ops. It was our only top jet that didn't get shot down. There was time when it dug down deep and even rescued our Rafales, otherwise more than 1 would have got shot down on that day

Imo, Su-35SM was likely a cold pitch by the Russians. Putin might have been trying to capitalize on the negative media reporting around the F404 delays late last year. The IAF didn't even consider this jet for MRFA. No chance they'd change their mind now.

The MKIs opex is already among the highest across the IAFs fighter fleet. Add to that the logistical burden of maintaining 2 different UPG versions and any hoped for benefits wrt faster availability of Russian kit start to fade quickly.

With an Indian radar replacing the Bars, there's also a good chance that MBDA would finally allow the integration of the Meteor on the MKI. That just wouldn't be possible with Russian upgraded jets.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Imo, Su-35SM was likely a cold pitch by the Russians. Putin might have been trying to capitalize on the negative media reporting around the F404 delays late last year. The IAF didn't even consider this jet for MRFA. No chance they'd change their mind now.

The MKIs opex is already among the highest across the IAFs fighter fleet. Add to that the logistical burden of maintaining 2 different UPG versions and any hoped for benefits wrt faster availability of Russian kit start to fade quickly.

With an Indian radar replacing the Bars, there's also a good chance that MBDA would finally allow the integration of the Meteor on the MKI. That just wouldn't be possible with Russian upgraded jets.

Su-35S has proven to be the baddest aerial killer of Ukrainian jets. Its air combat prowess are as good as any 4.5gen jet can get. But we have already selected Rafale as MRCA winner way back in 2012. Post that, there was no chance that we would go for import of any other 4.5 gen fighter. Both UAC and Saab tried hard with Su-35S and Gripen-E but thankfully IAF chose the best 4.5gen option for themselves and our country, i.e., Rafale.

 

[Hydra]

With an Indian radar replacing the Bars, there's also a good chance that MBDA would finally allow the integration of the Meteor on the MKI. That just wouldn't be possible with Russian upgraded jets.

With new sky sting offer and timeline of Astra mk3,i don't think that Meteor is that much needed missile for MKI at the time of upgraded MKI.

 

[Rajput Lion]

With new sky sting offer and timeline of Astra mk3,i don't think that Meteor is that much needed missile for MKI at the time of upgraded MKI.

The more weapons your jet can fire, the harder it's for the enemy to devise a plan and ECM against it. Meteor is about to get whole new upgrades which will enhance its seeker, range and speed. So not a bad choice for MKI UPG. despite the presence of Gandiva.

 

[randomradio]

With new sky sting offer and timeline of Astra mk3,i don't think that Meteor is that much needed missile for MKI at the time of upgraded MKI.

It's about logistics, not the weapon alone.

 

[batman]

Imagine how many programs could've been farther along were it not for some traitorous egos.

"Following the 1991 Soviet collapse, Russia offered scientists to India; however, a proposal to pay top Soviet experts around ₹10,000 monthly, plus USD 200—considered high compared to Indian ministerial pay and senior scientists' salaries at the time—was reportedly not fully accepted by the Indian government due to pay structure concerns, leading some experts to be picked up by China."

This is beyond fkd up if true, guess what they say is true. Can count on India to waste the opportunities they get.