Sukhoi Su-30MKI

Aniruddha said:
Neither is easier because of the number of unknowns.
Also the entire reason why Super Sukhoi is stretching this long is because the aircraft will essentially be grounded until the upgrade is complete and IAF does not have the luxury of grounding 100s of aircraft that form its mainstay.
Even the F-16 PoBiT upgrade program is meant to run for a period of 6 years.
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Why should all the MKIs selected for upgradation be grounded ? I was under the impression that most technologies required for the upgrade are either being developed or are under testing post which they'd be installed on board 2-3 such FAs & tested.

Once the entire upgrade is certified as FOC , it's replicated on the other MKIs. Reportedly the entire process is divided into 2 phases of 8 years each wherein 8 years would be for development testing & certification of those technologies & another 8 years for installation of them on board ~ 88 nos MKIs followed by certification.
 
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Speedster1 said:
Iirc, the Russians had also pitched the Su-35S along with the Su-57 some months back.

If the IAF signs up for parallel track upgrades for MKI, could they be considering some Su-35S as well?

Any Ru UPG package would have to be heavily based on the Su-35.

I don't believe the Russians would cannibalize their Su-57 market by offering elements like radar and avionics from it for MKI.
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"The Ministry of Defense is now looking at a government-to-government deal, rather than it being a global tender. The 114 aircraft probably may get divided into two parts. One being the Rafale from France and the second could probably see the Su-35 and the Su-57 for which Russians have offered a transfer of technology and production in India," Vohra said.
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Ashish Vohra, a retired air vice marshal and additional director general of New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies

www.dw.com

India's air force falling behind despite sky-high ambitions

After decades of service, India is retiring the last of its 1950s-era MiG-21 jets. But New Delhi's dream of buying new planes and building a sleek and modern air force has grown into a procurement nightmare.
www.dw.com www.dw.com
 
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spice said:
Ashish Vohra, a retired air vice marshal and additional director general of New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies

www.dw.com

India's air force falling behind despite sky-high ambitions

After decades of service, India is retiring the last of its 1950s-era MiG-21 jets. But New Delhi's dream of buying new planes and building a sleek and modern air force has grown into a procurement nightmare.
www.dw.com www.dw.com
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A few years ago, the IAF wouldn't even consider Su-35 as a worthy MRFA contender. I don't see how they'd take such a dramatic U-turn, esp. now that 114 Rafale have been cleared for induction and Su-57 is under consideration.

Russian jets have no export orders either, except perhaps from Iran and Algeria. So the theory of Sukhoi wanting to make India an export hub (like Israel) isn't plausible.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Why should all the MKIs selected for upgradation be grounded ? I was under the impression that most technologies required for the upgrade are either being developed or are under testing post which they'd be installed on board 2-3 such FAs & tested.

Once the entire upgrade is certified as FOC , it's replicated on the other MKIs. Reportedly the entire process is divided into 2 phases of 8 years each wherein 8 years would be for development testing & certification of those technologies & another 8 years for installation of them on board ~ 88 nos MKIs followed by certification.
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So 16 years to upgrade just 84 su-30 MKI ?....timelines doesnt seem correct.

I think 16 years for entire fleet of su-30 mki MLU upgrade in a phased manner.

During putin visit in december ANI reported for a second upgrade project in partnership with russia. This project would be separate from the indigenous upgrade of the 84 su-30s by HAL.

If the IAF is considering an engine upgrade in this russian upgrade than they should opt for 177s engine.
 
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Hydra said:
www.theweek.in

Why is Indian Air Force exploring a parallel route for Su-30MKI fighter jet upgrade?

Alongside the planned 'Super Sukhoi' upgrade for 84 jets, which has a long timeline, the IAF is exploring a parallel, faster upgrade path for the remaining 175 aircraft
www.theweek.in www.theweek.in
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If the IAF believes the Russian upgrade package which will be obsolete in another 5 years if not already then they are fooling nobody but themselves.
The indigenous Super Sukhoi programme needs to be expanded from 84 jets to the entire fleet of 259 jets or atleast 222 jets that were licensed produced by HAL in three separate batches.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Why should all the MKIs selected for upgradation be grounded ? I was under the impression that most technologies required for the upgrade are either being developed or are under testing post which they'd be installed on board 2-3 such FAs & tested.

Once the entire upgrade is certified as FOC , it's replicated on the other MKIs. Reportedly the entire process is divided into 2 phases of 8 years each wherein 8 years would be for development testing & certification of those technologies & another 8 years for installation of them on board ~ 88 nos MKIs followed by certification.
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What I meant by grounding the aircraft for the upgrade is that the IAF will at max commit to 18-20 aircraft to be upgraded each year, especially if this upgrade is to be carried out HAL and not BRD.
Also this is a deep upgrade involving everything from the cockpit instruments, radar, IRST, radar, etc.
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Aniruddha said:
What I meant by grounding the aircraft for the upgrade is that the IAF will at max commit to 18-20 aircraft to be upgraded each year, especially if this upgrade is to be carried out HAL and not BRD.
Also this is a deep upgrade involving everything from the cockpit instruments, radar, IRST, radar, etc.
View attachment 49964
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~ 88 MKIs in 8 years suggests the IAF is planning on upgrading 11 per annum. At par with HAL's record of turning out brand new MKIs when production was in full swing.

Also means only 1 line will be deployed by HAL. Seems neither the IAF nor HAL or the MoD is keen on speeding up the process else HAL can deploy 2 lines & a couple of BRD's can be brought into play .

No clue how does it affect the warranty / guarantee post production at the BRD though.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
~ 88 MKIs in 8 years suggests the IAF is planning on upgrading 11 per annum. At par with HAL's record of turning out brand new MKIs when production was in full swing.

Also means only 1 line will be deployed by HAL. Seems neither the IAF nor HAL or the MoD is keen on speeding up the process else HAL can deploy 2 lines & a couple of BRD's can be brought into play .

No clue how does it affect the warranty / guarantee post production at the BRD though.
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My guess is IAF is worried about airframe downtime given the magnitude of the upgrade.
Let's say the fitment of the various components that make up this upgrade takes a few months, but for those select few months the airframe would effectively be grounded and the serviceability of the Su30 MKI isn't that exceptional to begin with.
For comparison, the initial fitment of all 22 systems that make up the F-16 PoBIT upgrade takes 7 weeks, but those 7 weeks the aircraft is grounded, IAF likely wants to avoid that and this will result in the timelines being stretched.
 
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Aniruddha said:
My guess is IAF is worried about airframe downtime given the magnitude of the upgrade.
Let's say the fitment of the various components that make up this upgrade takes a few months, but for those select few months the airframe would effectively be grounded and the serviceability of the Su30 MKI isn't that exceptional to begin with.
For comparison, the initial fitment of all 22 systems that make up the F-16 PoBIT upgrade takes 7 weeks, but those 7 weeks the aircraft is grounded, IAF likely wants to avoid that and this will result in the timelines being stretched.
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Well (IAF) is proposing a major upgrade for its Su-30MKI fleet with Russian assistance to fast-track modernization and bridge capability gaps.

To run PARALLEL to indegenious supersukhoi upgrade.

www.newindianexpress.com

As Super Sukhoi awaits clearance, IAF turns to Russia for parallel Su-30MkI upgrade

NEW DELHI: Even as the Indian Air Force’s plan to upgrade 84 Su-30MKI fighters under the Super Sukhoi programme awaits clearance from the Cabinet Committee on S
www.newindianexpress.com www.newindianexpress.com

So for downturn concerns, they seem fine with upgrading more than 11 su30mki per year.
Infact if 175 no. For Russian upgrade are correct, it will make 30+ su30mki upgraded per year, even 40 at peak years.

**Relying solely on the indigenous upgrade could push timelines well into the next decade. A parallel track is therefore being considered to ensure operational readiness is not affected,” a source said.

The source added, “Moreover, with the Super Sukhoi upgrade limited to 84 aircraft, a parallel route is needed for the remaining Su-30MKI fleet of around 175 aircraft.”**
 
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babablacksheep said:
Well (IAF) is proposing a major upgrade for its Su-30MKI fleet with Russian assistance to fast-track modernization and bridge capability gaps.

To run PARALLEL to indegenious supersukhoi upgrade.

www.newindianexpress.com

As Super Sukhoi awaits clearance, IAF turns to Russia for parallel Su-30MkI upgrade

NEW DELHI: Even as the Indian Air Force’s plan to upgrade 84 Su-30MKI fighters under the Super Sukhoi programme awaits clearance from the Cabinet Committee on S
www.newindianexpress.com www.newindianexpress.com

So for downturn concerns, they seem fine with upgrading more than 11 su30mki per year.
Infact if 175 no. For Russian upgrade are correct, it will make 30+ su30mki upgraded per year, even 40 at peak years.

**Relying solely on the indigenous upgrade could push timelines well into the next decade. A parallel track is therefore being considered to ensure operational readiness is not affected,” a source said.

The source added, “Moreover, with the Super Sukhoi upgrade limited to 84 aircraft, a parallel route is needed for the remaining Su-30MKI fleet of around 175 aircraft.”**
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The Russian offering is similar to the Su30SM2 upgrade which they undertook to increase commonality with their Su35S fleet.
The centrepiece is the Irbis-E radar which although powerful and an upgrade over the N011M isn't exactly next generation and nowhere near as capable as a GaN AESA radar.
Also the power hungry Irbis-E means we will have to swap out the AL-31FP with AL-41F1-S engines.
Also given these systems are going to be sourced from a nation that is at war, I highly doubt how this parallel program would be any quicker.
 
Aniruddha said:
My guess is IAF is worried about airframe downtime given the magnitude of the upgrade.
Let's say the fitment of the various components that make up this upgrade takes a few months, but for those select few months the airframe would effectively be grounded and the serviceability of the Su30 MKI isn't that exceptional to begin with.
For comparison, the initial fitment of all 22 systems that make up the F-16 PoBIT upgrade takes 7 weeks, but those 7 weeks the aircraft is grounded, IAF likely wants to avoid that and this will result in the timelines being stretched.
Click to expand...
I don't get what do you mean by downtime? Is it your contention that say 1-2 MKIs being upgraded per month ought to be available on a dime if a conflict breaks out? That's impossible coz the FA would've been opened up for upgrading.

Beyond that I'm not sure how exactly have IAF & MoD scheduled these upgrades? Coz from what you're stating it appears 11-12 FAs would be parked at HAL at any given time & they'd be moved thru each work station for dismantling followed by upgrading / replacement of individual components to be followed by testing & formal certification after successful demonstration of these upgrades in a series of test flights.

This also works out to be the same as I've described in the first paragraph except the qtys are on the higher side. Once again there's no alternative to this besides grounding those FAs and if HAL is so concerned about the qty of air worthy FAs especially the MKIs they should've gone in for more.
 
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Speedster1 said:
Iirc, the Russians had also pitched the Su-35S along with the Su-57 some months back.

If the IAF signs up for parallel track upgrades for MKI, could they be considering some Su-35S as well?

Any Ru UPG package would have to be heavily based on the Su-35.

I don't believe the Russians would cannibalize their Su-57 market by offering elements like radar and avionics from it for MKI.
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We should avoid Su-35S at all costs. Rather order more Su-30MKI in UPG. configuration. Adding another heavy-weight 4.5gen fighter type shall further complicate our logistics problems.
 
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