Sukhoi Su-30MKI

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
330
195
Surat
It’s not possible. Russian won’t share source code for integration of western components and weapons into Su 30. It has a history of not certifying airworthiness of our own MAWS and EW components on Mig 21s and Su 30s, hindering our own EWS development.
And if you are thinking about something along the lines of Chinese J Series jets, well forget about it. It will be too time consuming for India unlike China who had their own weapons, radars and EW pods fully developed before venturing into this risky business. And they had money to shut Russians from making too much noise, we just can’t.

We have integr Brahmos without Russia certifying it. No Russian certification is needed. When we use all new electronics from non Russian source, we do not need Rusian source code to integrate it. I think Astra MK1 is already integrated with MKI.
 

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
1,833
Republic of Wadiya
We have integr Brahmos without Russia certifying it. No Russian certification is needed.
It’s necessary and it was provided by the OEM. Brahmos is a Russian system anyway.
When we use all new electronics from non Russian source, we do not need Rusian source code to integrate it.
Not true. Only IR guided weapons can work because they generally don’t need data from radar for target acquisition. Although the newer hybrid WVRAAMs do need some data to work it’s full potential.
I think Astra MK1 is already integrated with MKI.
Again Astra Mk 1 uses Russian seeker by AGAT and we have some agreements for local weapon systems.
But Airworthiness certification is mandatory for any weapon integration if you don’t intend to violate the OEM warranty.
 

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
330
195
Surat
It’s necessary and it was provided by the OEM. Brahmos is a Russian system anyway

Brahmos need no electronics integration. What it need is certification of airframe's capability to carry the load. We did it ourselves. Russia had asked 1400 cr INR to do it. We did it in 80 crore.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,573
11,326
India
It is nice but I would loke to have AL 41 to be sourced from Russia and rest of the things from elsewhere. We can incorporate Paython 5 , Astra mk1 and Mk2 with Mki. If France allow, we can integrate Meteor as well. We can make EW with Israel or we can get it from France in technology transfer. I am not in favor of Russian electronics.

It's unlikely the IAF is planning on changing the engine. They are looking for a least risky upgrade roadmap. MBDA has denied Meteor for Russian aircraft. But we have Astra Mk3 on the way. In the meantime, there's Derby ER and Astra Mk2.

It’s not possible. Russian won’t share source code for integration of western components and weapons into Su 30. It has a history of not certifying airworthiness of our own MAWS and EW components on Mig 21s and Su 30s, hindering our own EWS development. It’s just a fanboy dream which unfortunately will never materialise.
And if you are thinking about something along the lines of Chinese J Series jets, well forget about it. It will be too time consuming for India unlike China who had their own weapons, radars and EW pods fully developed before venturing into this risky business. And they had money to shut Russians from making too much noise, we just can’t.

We have no issues in incorporating anything we want, including Western weapons. MICA IR, ASRAAM and Derby ER are going on the MKI already. SPICE has also been integrated. More foreign weapons are on the way. The MKI's EW suite will be fully Indian, it has already finished development, apart from most other electronics. Only the radar is not yet known. Since the mission computer is Indian, we can integrate anything we want on it.

Keep fingers crossed for an upgrade contract in December.
 

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
330
195
Surat
Not true. Only IR guided weapons can work because they generally don’t need data from radar for target acquisition. Although the newer hybrid WVRAAMs do need some data to work it’s full potential.
What not true? I am talking about Changing all electronics including Radar. We already have integrated Astra MK1.
It's unlikely the IAF is planning on changing the engine. They are looking for a least risky upgrade roadmap. MBDA has denied Meteor for Russian aircraft. But we have Astra Mk3 on the way. In the meantime, there's Derby ER and Astra Mk2.



We have no issues in incorporating anything we want, including Western weapons. MICA IR, ASRAAM and Derby ER are going on the MKI already. SPICE has also been integrated. More foreign weapons are on the way. The MKI's EW suite will be fully Indian, it has already finished development, apart from most other electronics. Only the radar is not yet known. Since the mission computer is Indian, we can integrate anything we want on it.

Keep fingers crossed for an upgrade contract in December.

I said that We can integrate Meteor if France allow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shekhar Singh

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
1,833
Republic of Wadiya
Brahmos need no electronics integration. What it need is certification of airframe's capability to carry the load. We did it ourselves. Russia had asked 1400 cr INR to do it. We did it in 80 crore.
So ? You still need airworthiness certification for any modifications of the plane including its airframe. Yes we did it in India but it has been given the certification by Russian OEM ie JSC Sukhoi.
 

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
330
195
Surat
Again Astra Mk 1 uses Russian seeker by AGAT and we have some agreements for local weapon systems.
But Airworthiness certification is mandatory for any weapon integration if you don’t intend to violate the OEM warranty.
Seeker is already been replaced with Indian one if I am not wrong. We integrated Brahmos without Rusian certification.
So ? You still need airworthiness certification for any modifications of the plane including its airframe. Yes we did it in India but it has been given the certification by Russian OEM ie JSC Sukhoi.

Give the reference of Rusia certifying it. If Russia can certify it after we integrate, they will certify AAM integration as well. What is there to worry about?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shekhar Singh

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
1,833
Republic of Wadiya
What not true? I am talking about Changing all electronics including Radar. We already have integrated Astra MK1.
Re read your post to which I gave the answer.
Seeker is already been replaced with Indian one if I am not wrong.
I think so too.
We integrated Brahmos without Rusian certification.
Not true. We need Airworthiness Certificates for any modifications including those trivial ones like MRF tyres instead of OEM supplies tyres which was done due to supply issues. Or those drag chute used for short landing.
It may look insignificant to you but even for those too we need OEM certification.
 

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
1,833
Republic of Wadiya
It's unlikely the IAF is planning on changing the engine. They are looking for a least risky upgrade roadmap. MBDA has denied Meteor for Russian aircraft. But we have Astra Mk3 on the way. In the meantime, there's Derby ER and Astra Mk2.
I think we should have option of not going for immediate engine change but only during MLU. 14%thrust upgrade is not much considering Al 31FB is not underpowered. But in long term changing to AL 41 will be more logical considering that RuAF too is going for the same engine and it’s also claimed to have more life span and MTBO.
Keep fingers crossed for an upgrade contract in December.
Many reporters are claiming similar time line for signing of the contract. BTW we should press for AESA radar from Su 57 if it’s matured enough.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,573
11,326
India
I think we should have option of not going for immediate engine change but only during MLU. 14%thrust upgrade is not much considering Al 31FB is not underpowered. But in long term changing to AL 41 will be more logical considering that RuAF too is going for the same engine and it’s also claimed to have more life span and MTBO.

The problem isn't the thrust but electrical power. The 117S provides a significant boost in electrical power over the AL-31F. The question is whether the IAF is fine with the current level of power or they have an alternative.

Many reporters are claiming similar time line for signing of the contract. BTW we should press for AESA radar from Su 57 if it’s matured enough.

The Russians wanted to develop a much more capable radar than what's on the Su-57 for the MKI upgrade.

I'm hoping for the signatures of the MKI MLU, AK-203 and Ka-226T next month, along with 12 MKIs and 21 Mig-29s. The 12 MKIs will also be upgraded.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AbRaj

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
1,833
Republic of Wadiya
The problem isn't the thrust but electrical power. The 117S provides a significant boost in electrical power over the AL-31F. The question is whether the IAF is fine with the current level of power or they have an alternative.



The Russians wanted to develop a much more capable radar than what's on the Su-57 for the MKI upgrade.

I'm hoping for the signatures of the MKI MLU, AK-203 and Ka-226T next month, along with 12 MKIs and 21 Mig-29s. The 12 MKIs will also be upgraded.
All these upgrades are terribly delayed and should be done on war footing. Seeing the amount of well coordinated Chinese propaganda, we should not let our guards down.
Hope at least one follow on order of two squadrons of Rafale too should be ordered without waiting for MMRCA or whatever they are calling that monkey shopping nowadays.

Anything about artillery upgrades ? Chinese are miles ahead in that department and can saturate IA in no time.
Why no chatter about any light artillery system like Kalyani Garuda in IA ? PLA have so many different types of light artillery system capable to be deployed in high altitude terrain like Ladakh.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,573
11,326
India
All these upgrades are terribly delayed and should be done on war footing. Seeing the amount of well coordinated Chinese propaganda, we should not let our guards down.
Hope at least one follow on order of two squadrons of Rafale too should be ordered without waiting for MMRCA or whatever they are calling that monkey shopping nowadays.

Without changing the engine, the MKI upgrade should come in quite a bit faster than new Rafales though. Anyway, I don't think the IAF is interested in delaying the MRFA any more than it already is. We should have started the tender back in 2019.

I'd actually prefer spending money on 2 squadrons of Su-57 instead. For the same amount we spent on Rafale customisation, we can pay for the full MKIzation of the Su-57 with MKI MLU avionics.

Anything about artillery upgrades ? Chinese are miles ahead in that department and can saturate IA in no time.

We have more than enough 155mm guns for Ladakh.

Why no chatter about any light artillery system like Kalyani Garuda in IA ? PLA have so many different types of light artillery system capable to be deployed in high altitude terrain like Ladakh.

IA is only interested in 155mm guns. Otherwise, we have a hell lot of light guns, in the thousands.

We need more mobile guns, but the MGS tender is still in the works.
 

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
330
195
Surat
Re read your post to which I gave the answer.

I think so too.

Not true. We need Airworthiness Certificates for any modifications including those trivial ones like MRF tyres instead of OEM supplies tyres which was done due to supply issues. Or those drag chute used for short landing.
It may look insignificant to you but even for those too we need OEM certification.

I have already explan the case of certification.
Without changing the engine, the MKI upgrade should come in quite a bit faster than new Rafales though. Anyway, I don't think the IAF is interested in delaying the MRFA any more than it already is. We should have started the tender back in 2019.

I'd actually prefer spending money on 2 squadrons of Su-57 instead. For the same amount we spent on Rafale customisation, we can pay for the full MKIzation of the Su-57 with MKI MLU avionics.



We have more than enough 155mm guns for Ladakh.



IA is only interested in 155mm guns. Otherwise, we have a hell lot of light guns, in the thousands.

We need more mobile guns, but the MGS tender is still in the works.

Engine replacement will require irrespective of whether we go for AL31 or AL41. At the time of replacement, we can go for AL41 which is a better engine in all aspects.
 

Gautam

Moderator
Feb 16, 2019
12,725
10,045
Tripura, NE, India
HAL is outsourcing a few of the upgrades for the Su-30MKI via. the iDEX program. They are doing a lot of the work themselves with some DRDO labs:
Screenshot (801).png
 

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
330
195
Surat
And didn’t I said that you are not correct. What’s your confusion ?
PS: Before claiming anything, learn to read about it or at least apply some common sense.

It is you who is confused , not me. I said that we made sukhois capable of carrying Brahmos on our own and Russia certified it later (I believe your clain as I do not have any information on it). Similarly, if we make our own radar , missile Russia can certify it if required. We have already integrated Brahmos and Astra mk1. Now, Rudram is also integrated or being integrated. We already have a plan to upgrade MKIs to Super Sukhoi. Most of the stuff which is going to go into it is planned to be sourced from Desi source. So mow please do not defend indefensible.
 

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
1,833
Republic of Wadiya
I said that we made sukhois capable of carrying Brahmos on our own and Russia certified it later (I believe your clain as I do not have any information on it). Similarly, if we make our own radar , missile Russia can certify it if
If Russsia desires to certify. And they are very moody bunch.
Also there are certain limits beyond which even Russian OEM can’t integrate a western subsystem, let alone a third party.
We have already integrated Brahmos and Astra mk1.
Both have Russian seekers and we have agreements with them for further development (co development as they say ) and integration of other types of local seekers like MMW and Ku band.
No western party involved.
Now, Rudram is also integrated or being integrated.
Never heard of that name from any official source So can’t comment on rumours
We already have a plan to upgrade MKIs to Super Sukhoi. Most of the stuff which is going to go into it is planned to be sourced from Desi source.
Not true. Check the post number 1578. Su 30 SM2 standard for India is called Super Sukhoi upgrade (with minor exceptions like mission computer, EW pods, Local BVRAAM etc)
Its mostly Russian AFAIK.
So mow please do not defend indefensible.
Don’t have to. I don’t go by rumours.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,573
11,326
India
Not true. Check the post number 1578. Su 30 SM2 standard for India is called Super Sukhoi upgrade (with minor exceptions like mission computer, EW pods, Local BVRAAM etc)
Its mostly Russian AFAIK.

 

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
1,833
Republic of Wadiya
HAL has a habit of promising Moon and provides eggs.
1636475681224.png

AESA radar is nowhere near ready. It’s not even installed in any of its second tier jets like Mig 29 or even HAL made LCA and have not shown its operational readiness and performance in real life missions in any form. I doubt IAF will take the bait for its front line aircraft which forms the backbone of its AirPower. It’ll be a huge gamble for IAF if it goes for UTTAM derivative as Western radar is out of question.

Thales Topsight HMD is already integrated.
No western weapons integrated so for on MKI except few Israeli guided bombs and heat seeking WVRAAM.
And even those are mostly hacks and not full integration as we see in western fully integrated weapon systems (as per PKS). These are not the optimal solutions but necessary arrangements.
Rest of the components are minor subsystems and can be sourced from local/western OEMs like what was done in MKI.
BTW PKS is saying that Su 30 will continue to rely on podded SPJ as internal SPJ is not available.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RISING SUN

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,573
11,326
India
HAL has a habit of promising Moon and provides eggs.
View attachment 21830
AESA radar is nowhere near ready. It’s not even installed in any of its second tier jets like Mig 29 or even HAL made LCA and have not shown its operational readiness and performance in real life missions in any form. I doubt IAF will take the bait for its front line aircraft which forms the backbone of its AirPower. It’ll be a huge gamble for IAF if it goes for UTTAM derivative as Western radar is out of question.

Thales Topsight HMD is already integrated.
No western weapons integrated so for on MKI except few Israeli guided bombs and heat seeking WVRAAM.
And even those are mostly hacks and not full integration as we see in western fully integrated weapon systems (as per PKS). These are not the optimal solutions but necessary arrangements.
Rest of the components are minor subsystems and can be sourced from local/western OEMs like what was done in MKI.
BTW PKS is saying that Su 30 will continue to rely on podded SPJ as internal SPJ is not available.

AESA radar is not clear yet, but most of the stuff going on MKI will be Indian. This includes the helmet, targeting pod, IRST, IFF/CIT, the full EW suite, cockpit etc. Many of them are official projects.

IRST:

EW suite:

And yes, the MKI will use podded jammer. The IAF doesn't want major changes in the airframe. The podded jammer is under flight testing.

Uttam radar development is complete. Now it's only about adding in more advanced tech or scaling it up. A GaN version will begin testing next year. Regardless of whether it's chosen or not for the MKI, at least the option exists now.

Plenty of non-Russians weapons are being integrated on the MKI. The latest one was the MICA IR. Derby ER is coming up next along with ASRAAM. SPICE integration has already completed. Two WVR missiles, one BVR missile and a family of glide bombs, that's already plenty. The only thing left is a Western stealth cruise missile, but one hasn't been chosen yet, pending an Indian option.