S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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If it came down to fighting, Pakistan will not hesitate to destroy itself fighting India. China will only fight a limited conflict.
Fight with China is going to be a mountain corps battle. Tanks are extremely hard to deploy in that region because of Himalayas.
Air power without land invasion army is worthless. Air power can only soften an enemy but to actually defeat an enemy, you need boots on ground.

China is limited threat to India because China is not desperate to fight India and India is well guarded against Chinese due to geography.
China would destroy India with a limited conflict.

You should revisit Desert Storm. After 2 weeks of air power, there was little left on the ground and anything left had its engine turned off to avoid detection from the air, and was easy prey.
 

BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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China and India is more of a diplomatic war than a military conflict. China is a very rational enemy. Wonder how many bullets have been fired on India China border over all these decades? Less than number of bullets fired in an hour with Pakistan, almost daily. Plus, China's mode of war is not a direct or lone confrontation of India. It will be via or with Pakistan.

Lastly, China itself has a bigger problem to solve. They don't have too many airbases near Indian border. And if they move their air assets near Indian border, they have a much bigger enemy than India to bother in the east. To tackle China, we need an understanding with other nations in the region and USA.
Yes but China beat you in the last war. That's the difference.
Sino-Indian War - Wikipedia

Who is the much bigger enemy?

I agree with the last statement.
 

_Anonymous_

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As per fact at the time. In terms of numerical size, it was only behind US, Russia and China. You massively underestimate how many tanks, APCs, IFV, artillery pieces and aircraft were destroyed (many still on the ground). It was a demonstration of how fast you get screwed if you don't have air superiority.
Please read about the Iraq Iran conflict. In spite of having what you claim to be the 4 th strongest military ( in the same breath, you also indicate that they didn't have air superiority) as per some yardstick, uniquely your own, they were forced into a stalemate by the Iranians.

All this, when they had the support of the entire Arab world, with the French & Russians playing Santa Claus, selling them their choicest arms.
 
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_Anonymous_

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China would destroy India with a limited conflict.

You should revisit Desert Storm. After 2 weeks of air power, there was little left on the ground and anything left had its engine turned off to avoid detection from the air, and was easy prey.
China would have the upper hand, but there's always a danger that this conflict won't be restricted to the border areas. There's a very strong chance that the situation would escalate enough to get the Navy involved, in which case we can choke off supplies in the Malacca & Lombok straits.

This isn't as easy as your simplistic mind comprehends it to be.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Yeah sure. Kim launches a few ICBMs, they get shot down by GBI, then NK gets turned into glass. Absolutely quivering. It's funny that at one time you mock the UK deterrent and then later massively overstate the NK deterrent, which is pitiful in number.

I never mocked British deterrent.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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China would destroy India with a limited conflict.

You should revisit Desert Storm. After 2 weeks of air power, there was little left on the ground and anything left had its engine turned off to avoid detection from the air, and was easy prey.

The Chinese air capability in Tibet is a joke.

Our air chief recently said they have only 50 jets in the region.
 
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Shajida Khan

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Dec 27, 2017
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China would destroy India with a limited conflict.

You should revisit Desert Storm. After 2 weeks of air power, there was little left on the ground and anything left had its engine turned off to avoid detection from the air, and was easy prey.
India is no Iraq occupying Kuwait and China is no USA and Indian geography is no Middle East. You can only stretch an analogy so far. The situation is not even comparable.

The simplest part : Iraq could have never attacked US carrier groups or US airfields anywhere. India can attack Chinese airbases in Tibet and elsewhere.
 
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BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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India is no Iraq occupying Kuwait and China is no USA and Indian geography is no Middle East. You can only stretch an analogy so far. The situation is not even comparable.

The simplest part : Iraq could have never attacked US carrier groups or US airfields anywhere. India can attack Chinese airbases in Tibet and elsewhere.
They actually did launch Silkworm AShMs but they were shot down. China can attack everything in India with more firepower than India can throw back, and with air superiority.
 

BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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China would have the upper hand, but there's always a danger that this conflict won't be restricted to the border areas. There's a very strong chance that the situation would escalate enough to get the Navy involved, in which case we can choke off supplies in the Malacca & Lombok straits.

This isn't as easy as your simplistic mind comprehends it to be.
Indian Navy vs Chinese Navy = Easy win for China. This is the problem, you are outgunned in the air and at sea.
 

BMD

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Please read about the Iraq Iran conflict. In spite of having what you claim to be the 4 th strongest military ( in the same breath, you also indicate that they didn't have air superiority) as per some yardstick, uniquely your own, they were forced into a stalemate by the Iranians.

All this, when they had the support of the entire Arab world, with the French & Russians playing Santa Claus, selling them their choicest arms.
The Iranians were stronger in the air too. They had F-14s with the AIM-54 remember, which back then was state-of-the-art. They also had F-4s and Cobras armed with AIM-9s. meanwhile Iraq had MiG-23s and MiG-25s - not match for F-14 and Mirage F1 - POS.
 

Parthu

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I believe they have AESA on some flankers and more of them in number.

Those AESAs (actually, some analysts still argue they are really PESAs) are in the same boat as everything else that's Chinese in this league...don't really know if they're good or if they just slapped a new array onto the same evolutionary development of N011 Bars that existed since 90s and calling it a new radar. I have little doubt that RBE-2AA is a better radar overall, even though Rafale nose is nowhere as big as Flanker's and there's far fewer of them. The planned Su-30MKI upgrade should incorporate a Tikhomirov AESA derived from Su-57's N036 Byelka - if/when that comes that'll very likely be better than J-20's radar actually (because again, Flanker nose is huuuge), let alone J-11B or J-10B/C.

Even if it doesn't for some reason, the consistently upgraded N011M Bars (went through three iterations since induction) on the MKIs is not a weak radar by any means. A healthy mix of MKI and its big *censored* PESA, Rafale with its AESA and Meteor, should be very much able to secure an upper hand in the air.

They also have MRBMs and IRBMs with manoeuvrable re-entry vehicles to wipe out your airfields or any SAMs that hang around in one place for more than 10 minutes.

So do we. Actually the Army has already inducted ~400 rounds (divided into 4 regiments if I remember correctly) of the ground-launched BrahMos Block-II/III with a reach of ~550km or above (we know the range restrictions have been lifted). And at least half of them are available for the Chinese front. Block-III was specifically developed for the Chinese.

Not to mention Nirbhay and the other systems set to come online in the next couple years.

S-400s shouldn't have a problem defending against short ranged BMs (if put to that role), although no one's saying they'll shoot down each and every missile China fires into our airspace. It won't...but neither will China shoot down all of ours. And there's actually far fewer targets we have to take out on the Chinese side to cripple the war effort. On the Indian side a LOT more facilities can help the effort, so more possible targets.

Long answer short...I don't see either side able to treat this conflict as a walk in the park.
 
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_Anonymous_

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The Iranians were stronger in the air too. They had F-14s with the AIM-54 remember, which back then was state-of-the-art. They also had F-4s and Cobras armed with AIM-9s. meanwhile Iraq had MiG-23s and MiG-25s - not match for F-14 and Mirage F1 - POS.
The Iranians were completely isolated minus many of their personnel lost to defections , arrests, assassinations , lack of spares, qualified mechanics etc.

Here, murphy, educate yourself before you go shooting that Golden mouth of yours -
Persian Cats | Military Aviation | Air & Space Magazine

https://warisboring.com/in-the-iran-iraq-war-f-5s-and-mig-21s-fought-to-a-standstill/

P. S - besides, if the Iraqis had the "4 th strongest military " As per your earlier post, then how does it square with your latest post of the Iranians being stronger than the Iraqis? Please don't embarass yourself. Listen to some boring tunes and post the links in your favourite thread out here.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Indian Navy vs Chinese Navy = Easy win for China. This is the problem, you are outgunned in the air and at sea.
You ought to write for Houlihan's Defence Studies or the Irish Intelligence Review ( Itself a oxymoron) or some other Irish based Geopolitical website ( har har har, so sorry. Couldn't resist that).

I'm sure your enjoy a very good audience and reputation there.
 

suryakiran

Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
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China would destroy India with a limited conflict.

You should revisit Desert Storm. After 2 weeks of air power, there was little left on the ground and anything left had its engine turned off to avoid detection from the air, and was easy prey.

Educate yourself on Indian history before talking man. Post 1965, China has tried at-least 3 times to change the status quo. Each time, it was unchanged. In Doklam, for the first time we initiated aggressive action by crossing borders. Guess what happened?

Read about 1967 and 1987. The Chinese tried invading, were beaten back and had to come to the negotiating table and accept the sanctity of LAC and de jure acceptance of Arunachal Pradesh. In 1967, they realised Sikkim will become Indian territory. Something they wanted for themselves.

In the Doklam, they tried intervening in the chicken neck area, which we are consider our strategic area of interest. Guess what happened there? We crossed the border and asked them to vacate an area which they consider theirs.

Here is something more for you. Both countries, while adversarial are not nuts like our western neighbours. If China, settles the Indo-China border issue, you will see India leave the anti China camp in an instant. Then they will leave the Chinese to deal with the South China Sea, while we deal with the nuts to the west.

Nathu La and Cho La clashes - Wikipedia
 
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Shajida Khan

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Dec 27, 2017
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Yes but China beat you in the last war. That's the difference.
Sino-Indian War - Wikipedia

Who is the much bigger enemy?

I agree with the last statement.

Out last 'war' with China was '67. The Chola incidence. We were able to take over Sikkim and China since then have acknowledged Sikkim as a state of India.

'62 was inconsequential as far as any territorial change goes. India was at its weakest during this war owing of a complete neglect to intelligence and military by Nehru and yet the war was large inconsequential as far as political goals of China go. It however ensured that India would be more than ready for the next wars. '67 and '71.

Who is the much bigger enemy?
The US of Father-loving A.