S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

BMD

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So, USA is modern day superman? Do you think Russia is incapable? On what basis? USA and Russia have an arrangement o de-escalation. So, neither does USA shoot down Russian planes nor Russia shoots USA planes
Russian equipment has never in history stood up to US equipment, even in the Korean War when it was relatively good thanks to the USSR copying a Rolls-Royce Nene engine.

Stealth aircrafts are not Alladin's flying mat! They have low visibility but not invisible. Also, the air defence network has radars from various angles due to which not just the frontal RCS is seen but sideways RCS is also seen which is god enough to give away any stealth plane.
S-400s are not God's right hand. Wait until you add EW to that nearly invisible RCS and see what happens. BQM-74s, cruise missiles, F-22s/35s plus Growlers and no air-defence system has a cat in hell's chance, or even enough missiles.
 

BMD

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Its purpose, in Indian defence is three folds.

1. Deny Pakistan from operating a AWACS or a Fuel Tanker to extend their limited range and force of PAF.
2. Deny Pakistan's F-16 any operational capabilities in Indian Airspace and to a large extent, Pakistani Airspace as well.
3. Defeat most of Pakistan's cruise missiles at a longer distance. A cruise missile is much more maneuverable and potent threat than a Ballistic missile.
You keep concentrating on your weakest opponent, you should concentrate on your strongest opponent. It's like concentrating on Brock Lesnar's child rather than Brock Lesnar.
 

BMD

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When was the last time you tried doing this against Iran? Hell, when was the last time Israel tried this against Iran? And please, its not because of "We don't want to start a war".
Israel is more scared by the prospect of a large volume of ballistic missiles coming back than defeating the pathetic Iranian air-defences.
 

BMD

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And the basis for this assertion is?
Because SAMs have never succeeded in area denial ever. You're banking on S-400s starting a new trend of ground superiority, which is like expecting the bow and arrow to make a comeback on the battlefield. If air defences were that good, dreadnoughts and cruisers would still rule the oceans/seas and not aircraft carriers.
 

Parthu

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You keep concentrating on your weakest opponent, you should concentrate on your strongest opponent. It's like concentrating on Brock Lesnar's child rather than Brock Lesnar.

As far as air defence goes, I don't think things can actually get any better than SPYDER + Akash + Barak-8 + S400. Not many countries can claim to have a better AD system in place. I'm pretty sure Barak beats the lesser ranged Chinese AD systems hands down.

As of aircraft themselves, that's a separate discussion and depends on where we decide to go with 5th generation requirement. And off topic anyway.
 

_Anonymous_

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What about China-India. Pakistan is barely Iraq-level opposition, in fact they are below 1991 Iraq as an opponent.
They're a Nuclear Power with a decent Air Force and a sizeable arsenal of CM, SRBM & MRBM. I wouldn't be so dismissive of them.
 

randomradio

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You keep concentrating on your weakest opponent, you should concentrate on your strongest opponent. It's like concentrating on Brock Lesnar's child rather than Brock Lesnar.

Um... I would recommend checking a map and taking a look at India's geography. A lot of our assets in the north can be used against China also.

And we are concentrating on both our opponents. The 5 S-400 systems will be complemented by 5 more systems at a later date. And we have another long range SAM program called the XRSAM, which should start testing by 2020.
 

randomradio

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What about China-India. Pakistan is barely Iraq-level opposition, in fact they are below 1991 Iraq as an opponent.

They have nukes, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, submarines and relatively modern aircraft supported by AWACS and refuelers. That's a whole lot better than the Iraqis.
 

advaidhya

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Russian equipment has never in history stood up to US equipment, even in the Korean War when it was relatively good thanks to the USSR copying a Rolls-Royce Nene engine.


S-400s are not God's right hand. Wait until you add EW to that nearly invisible RCS and see what happens. BQM-74s, cruise missiles, F-22s/35s plus Growlers and no air-defence system has a cat in hell's chance, or even enough missiles.
There was never a direct confrontation of USA with USSR for that claim to be made. NATO only hit the enemies who were weak or under equipped and hence such claims don't hold ground.

S400 is not god's hand. But we are speaking of multiple layer of SAMs - Akash, Barak-8 and XRSAM. S400 is just an import in small quantity and not a game changer. S400 deal will also give technology to India to make XRSAM of 250km which will be the SAM which India will mass produce. To penetrate 3 layer defence even with stealth planes will be hell of a job. The advantage of EW in reducing RCS can be countered by radar jammers. F22/F35 are also not god's hand and can be beaten. At the end of the day, ground based systems are always having upper hand over air based system in efficiency
 

BMD

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There was never a direct confrontation of USA with USSR for that claim to be made. NATO only hit the enemies who were weak or under equipped and hence such claims don't hold ground.

S400 is not god's hand. But we are speaking of multiple layer of SAMs - Akash, Barak-8 and XRSAM. S400 is just an import in small quantity and not a game changer. S400 deal will also give technology to India to make XRSAM of 250km which will be the SAM which India will mass produce. To penetrate 3 layer defence even with stealth planes will be hell of a job. The advantage of EW in reducing RCS can be countered by radar jammers. F22/F35 are also not god's hand and can be beaten. At the end of the day, ground based systems are always having upper hand over air based system in efficiency
The Soviets were flying for NK in the Korean War and for the NVA in Vietnam. The Soviets only hit enemies who were under-equipped and still lost.

SAMs in general are no match for air power.

That doesn't make any sense. The stealth aircraft is using the jamming.

A2A I'm yet to see any evidence that an F-22 can be beaten in open combat (not mock dogfights).

Nope, they just don't. Ground-based air defences have never successfully countered air power since WWII. Like I said, cruiser and destroyers would still rule the waves if they did.
 

BMD

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They have nukes, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, submarines and relatively modern aircraft supported by AWACS and refuelers. That's a whole lot better than the Iraqis.
Not relative to the time period. Iraq 1991 was the 4th strongest military in the world. Pakistan 2018 is not.
 

BMD

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Um... I would recommend checking a map and taking a look at India's geography. A lot of our assets in the north can be used against China also.

And we are concentrating on both our opponents. The 5 S-400 systems will be complemented by 5 more systems at a later date. And we have another long range SAM program called the XRSAM, which should start testing by 2020.
But you keep mentioning Pakistan. They are a worthless opponent.
 

BMD

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As far as air defence goes, I don't think things can actually get any better than SPYDER + Akash + Barak-8 + S400. Not many countries can claim to have a better AD system in place. I'm pretty sure Barak beats the lesser ranged Chinese AD systems hands down.

As of aircraft themselves, that's a separate discussion and depends on where we decide to go with 5th generation requirement. And off topic anyway.
China's air power is miles ahead of India's and SAMs will not right that wrong.
 

Parthu

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China's air power is miles ahead of India's and SAMs will not right that wrong.

Besides the J-20 (which is unproven and I can't say how good or bad it is), what does PLAAF have that can give IAF too much trouble in the air? Newer J-10s and J-11s? Nothing an upgraded Su-30MKI cannot handle. Throw in a few Rafales with Meteor and those legacy Chinese fighters are in trouble.

Numbers? When you calculate how many fighters China can actually deploy on the Indian front (they can't bring their entire air force to Tibet or Xinjiang) and how many operable air bases they have that can host an offensive air campaign in this region, its pretty evenly matched.

As of SAMs, they certainly have their role to play in denting an offensive campaign, not to mention their role in shooting down TBMs and cruise missiles.
 

Arvind

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Because SAMs have never succeeded in area denial ever. You're banking on S-400s starting a new trend of ground superiority, which is like expecting the bow and arrow to make a comeback on the battlefield. If air defences were that good, dreadnoughts and cruisers would still rule the oceans/seas and not aircraft carriers.

Cruisers and destroyers dont carry S-400s due to financial constraints. Bad analogy.
 

suryakiran

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Israel is more scared by the prospect of a large volume of ballistic missiles coming back than defeating the pathetic Iranian air-defences.

Actually no. Even when Iran had ballistic missiles, surveillance drones were used by US and Israel. Things changed post the shooting down of the stealth UCAV and being paraded around Tehran.

Don't mix things up.