Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 16 36.4%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
Could this have something to do with the data breach (yet again) at NG? After the 1st incident in 2016, the IN delayed plans to buy more Kalvari.

Le Naval Groupe seems to be a bunch of Charlot . Just a few years ago leaked details of the Scorpenes made the headlines around the world. Le Naval Groupe assured everybody concerned those leaks weren't important. People seem to have bought into these explanations & the matter died a quiet death.

7-8 years later , here we are once again. Wonder what will the Charlot at Le Naval Groupe be coming out with next by way of an explanation instead of strengthening their cyber security. @Picdelamirand-oil ; @Bon Plan ; @Amarante ; @Herciv

The Australians not the brightest of the lot out there giving close competition in this matter to the Canadians must be on the floor besides themselves. You tell le Francais pops . @Optimist
 
  • Like
Reactions: Asmodeus
Le Naval Groupe seems to be a bunch of Charlot . Just a few years ago leaked details of the Scorpenes made the headlines around the world. Le Naval Groupe assured everybody concerned those leaks weren't important. People seem to have bought into these explanations & the matter died a quiet death.

7-8 years later , here we are once again. Wonder what will the Charlot at Le Naval Groupe be coming out with next by way of an explanation instead of strengthening their cyber security. @Picdelamirand-oil ; @Bon Plan ; @Amarante ; @Herciv

The Australians not the brightest of the lot out there giving close competition in this matter to the Canadians must be on the floor besides themselves. You tell le Francais pops . @Optimist
i’ve sent some messages here

@Sathya namaskar (‘cause i Forgot in my Previous post) and Namaskar to all of you.

Other infos dated 23.07:

The French authorities have been doing cybercriminals a disservice lately! [want to say « are Harming ´em »]

New victory ✌🏽 with the arrest of the "administrator"—read: the mastermind—of the other Russian "Amazon of cybercrime"!

As a reminder, this forum existed for over 12 years—since 2013—and contained firsthand information about cybercrime!

According to the authorities, the arrested suspect, who has been very active in cybercrime for nearly 20 years, allegedly pocketed the tidy sum of €7 million.
He was arrested in Ukraine, four years after the investigation began!

Note that since this afternoon, the site is no longer accessible on the clearnet—read: the normal internet—but remains (for the time being) accessible on its darkweb version.

Cyber-yours,

SaxX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ /d**pl

adendum from a contributor on the air-défense forum, thx 2 the original poster:

A recap of the alleged NG hack:

Naval Group, a destabilization operation underway?

Two weeks ago, NoName057 (no introduction needed), a pro-Russian hacktivist group known for its DDOS attacks, already claimed, before its partial dismantling, to have infiltrated "the internal perimeter of Naval Group."

They mentioned the assistance of "volunteers" with whom "interesting data" had been recovered before being shared with "relevant/appropriate third parties." without making any mention of the nature of this data or even accompanying this claim with a screenshot in the absence of samples...

This first claim made on Telegram was a flop.

A week later, between July 14 and 17, a large-scale operation, led by authorities from several countries, including France, put a serious stop to the activities of the hacker collective NoName057(16).

Another week later, we find the "same" claim, from a cybercriminal who had created his account a little earlier on the "Amazon of cybercrime," with more details on the alleged cyberattack on Naval Group, a 13GB sample of data, and, above all, a 72-hour ultimatum...

The modus operandi, the timeline, and many other questions arise... are surprising.
A destabilization operation targeting France through its flagship maritime defense? A false flag operation by a competitor or a government following the group's latest contracts? ...

Also, always take a step back, know how to cross-reference sources, and avoid letting your narrative dictate!
A reputational attack, a destabilization operation,
it's like the three Rafale jets supposedly shot down during Sindoor.

There's a saying that goes: gossip, gossip, there's always something left.
 
Last edited:
i’ve sent some messages here


A reputational attack, a destabilization operation,
it's like the three Rafale jets supposedly shot down during Sindoor.

There's a saying that goes: gossip, gossip, there's always something left.
I'm sorry but this is what NG claimed the last time too. Whether these disclosures affect national security & compromise operations are something only expert evaluation will confirm. As of now it's one man's word against the other .

Btw NG quite obviously hasn't learnt anything from the previous episode. Last time the allegations were TKMS was indulging in industrial espionage . Now it's being blamed on the Russians.
 
french subs leaks (real truth revealed)
Gw3PlN8WcAArPB4

@_Anonymous_
we know nothing​
 
How Make in India comes to focus in submarine plan amidst Trump shadow

So the Babus do know that 3 Scorpenes would be delivered starting 6 years and P75I delivery will start in 10.

Logically the last Scorpene will come before the 1st P75I.
Of course they know, each file needs 4-5 signatures from different stakeholders, and the top rank official has to self-attest each page of the file. Like if the entire file is with 200 300 or more pages still no exception. Else finance ministry will send it back again. Approx 40% are getting sent back this way and more delay.

Anyway, this cutting up a sub and fitting the module biz is frankly pathetic and as per projection due to overall cost involved Govt is not considering subs as priority. Hence the surface warfare asset building is more priority.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Sathya

How Make in India comes to focus in submarine plan amidst Trump shadow


Even as the Indian Navy is tossing between two of its critical submarine programmes, three additional Kalveri (Scorpene) submarines and Project-75 India (P-75I) for six advanced submarines, the issue of the Make in India component is being discussed in the corridors of South Block.

India is in critical need to enhance the navy’s underwater capabilities as Pakistan is building its underwater prowess massively with the help of China. The PLA Navy is the world’s largest and most rapidly expanding navy. Its submarine fleet is projected to reach 65 this year and 80 by 2035.

Early this week, during Philippines president Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr’s bilateral discussions with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, both leaders discussed enhancing cooperation in maritime security, including through collaborative efforts for enhanced maritime domain awareness (MDA), cooperation in ship-building, maritime connectivity and coastal surveillance.

It is learnt that the Philippines has expressed interest in Indian-built submarines. For that, the Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) will play a significant role as it has just delivered six Kalveri (Scorpene)-class submarines in partnership with France’s Naval Group.


In July 2023, India and France had signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) to fabricate submarine and surface combatants and parts in Mumbai and Kolkata, respectively, for export. It was announced that the move will boost the Make in India initiative since MDL will jointly develop and manufacture Scorpene-class submarines with the Naval Group for a third country.

While the contract for three additional Kalveri-class submarines is awaiting the Union Cabinet’s approval, as announced a year ago, P-75I is at the cost-negotiation stage, even though the shipbuilder has not yet been called for it. Modi announced the contract for manufacturing three additional Scorpene submarines during his visit to France in July 2023. Progress of the project has been followed up by French president Emmanuel Macron and Modi during state visits in India and France in January 2024 and February 2025.

While explaining the timelines of both submarine projects, a defence official said that three additional Scorpene submarines will be delivered in six years from signing of the contract, while in the case of P-75I, it will take at least 10 years to deliver the first boat, factoring in the tedious procurement process in India.

Defence sources claim the additional submarines will have 60 per cent indigenous content compared to the previously delivered six Kalveri submarines, where all six boats had close to 30 per cent indigenous content on an average. Moreover, the new additional Scorpene submarines will be slightly bigger than the earlier version of the boat and have improved performances, including significant involvement of Indian industry and possibilities of integration of technologies developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), including torpedoes.

For the Scorpene (Kalveri) submarines under Project 75, the Make in India components include main batteries, gas analysers, intercoms, AC and RO plants, and hull fabrication—with INS Vagsheer, the most recent boat to be commissioned, achieving 40 per cent indigenisation. Moreover, it will have the DRDO Naval Materials Research Laboratory’s fuel cell-based AIP (air independent propulsion) system, which is being developed. Besides, the combat management system and missile package area are also planned as Made in India.

On the other hand, P-75I (whose project cost has shot up from Rs 43,000 crore to Rs 70,000 crore) will have local content of about 45 per cent in the first boat, going up to 60 per cent in the last (sixth) boat. These six advanced conventional submarines will have the latest sensors and weapons and AIP. Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), which is being shortlisted for the project in partnership with MDL, cleared the technical evaluation conducted by the ministry of defence, and will bring its own proven AIP into the boat.

Another factor bothering Indian naval planners is the weapons package in the German boat. So far, existing German HDW (Shishumar-class) submarines have the US’s Harpoon missiles, and it is likely that the new submarines to be built under P-75I will also carry Harpoon missiles. However, the Indian Navy has not finalised the weapons package with the submarine-maker yet. Considering US president Donald Trump’s unpredictability, India’s advanced submarine programme resting some dependency on a US missile platform could cause problems at a later stage.

On the other hand, the DRDO is at an advanced stage of developing its 500-km-range Submarine-Launched Cruise Missile (SLCM). This missile is expected to be fitted on Indian submarines. “Uniformity in its inventory is always good for any navy. From weapons package to propulsion system, the Indian Navy should be trying to get a common platform as much as possible,” said a defence source. Moreover, the DRDO-developed AIP gives India an edge when it comes to exporting submarines as this will not require consent from any third country.
 
Western navies are phasing out Harpoon and it's unlikely the IN will want to buy any more. As the article itself states the focus is on commonality and localization. Imo, negotiations for Kalvari B2 have advanced too far for the deal to be cancelled now. Otoh, cost negotiations with TKMS for Type-214I haven't even started.
 
Navy Set to Seal Two Mega Submarine Projects with France, Germany

New Delhi: India is likely to seal two mega submarine deals worth over Rs one lakh crore by the middle of next year to crank up its undersea warfare capabilities against the backdrop of China's increasing naval prowess, authoritative sources said on Sunday.
The first project that is being negotiated is for the procurement of three Scorpene submarines, which will be jointly constructed by state-run Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) and French defence major Naval Group.

Though the defence ministry cleared the nearly Rs 36,000 crore deal over two years back, there have been delays in negotiations to firm up various technical and commercial aspects of the project, the sources said.

The second project that the defence ministry is eyeing to seal is for the acquisition of six diesel-electric stealth submarines at a cost of around Rs 65,000 crore. The procurement was initially cleared by the ministry in 2021.
"We are expecting both contracts will be firmed up by the middle of next year," a source said.

Leading German shipbuilder ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) has partnered with Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd for the project, billed as one of the biggest 'Make in India' initiatives in recent years.

The sources said the cost negotiations for the deal will start soon and the entire process may take six to nine months before a contract is concluded.

While the proposed acquisition of six stealth submarines under Project 75 India (P75-I) is a completely new programme, the plan for the three Scorpene submarines will be a follow-on order of a previous acquisition.

Under the Indian Navy's Project 75, six Scorpene submarines have already been constructed by Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) in collaboration with the Naval Group.

The Navy wants both deals to be firmed up soon as it is looking at bolstering its underwater capabilities, said an official aware of the matter.

The sources cited above said finalising the cost negotiations process for the diesel-engine programme will take time. The commercial negotiations for Scorpene-class submarines have almost been completed, they added.

If everything goes as per plan, then the Scorpene project will be finalised early next year as it has already suffered significant delays, the sources said.

The delivery of boats under both projects will start around six years after the signing of the contracts, they said.

Asked if the MDL will have the capabilities to implement both the projects simultaneously, the sources said it was for the shipbuilder to augment its infrastructure.

"There have already been inordinate delays in the Scorpene submarine project and we hope it will be concluded soon," said one of the sources.

While the defence ministry had given its in-principle approval for the additional Scorpenes as well as procurement of 26 naval variants of Rafale jets from France, the first project remained in limbo.

In April, India and France inked an intergovernmental agreement sealing a mega deal to procure 26 Rafale marine jets at a cost of Rs 64,000 crore (Euro 7 billion) for deployment on board the Indian Navy's aircraft carrier INS Vikrant.
 
Surprising that no one posted this:


Very interesting insinuations:
But with only L&T qualifying in the private sector, the Navy roped in MDL as well for the P75I. TKMS, initially in talks with L&T, ultimately switched sides to MDL sensing a possible single vendor situation.

It is also learnt that that another fear was the possibility of South Korean experience where TKMS tied up private firm Daewoo Shipbuilders for their submarine programme and within years the South Korean company became a competitor.
:ROFLMAO:
MDL is being talked about as too incompetent to copy the design.
L&T on the other hand is seen as a potential competitor.

Sources in the know said that the defence and security establishment had also toyed with the idea of MDL being asked to sublet two submarines to L&T or expanding the order to nine at a later stage.

However, it is learnt that no such plan has moved forward.
This is the way forward if Indian leaders have any semblance of forward thinking. PSUs will never innovate, their only upside is their ability to handle erratic orders from spoiled services that no pvt sector company will entertain. Entire system is rotten.
 
India hopes to seal submarine contract with Germany this fiscal, MDL pares down cost ‘significantly’

First submarine, according to RFP, must be delivered 7 yrs after contract signing with 45% indigenous content, followed by one each year until programme reaches 60% localisation.

New Delhi: The Indian Navy is hoping to conclude contract negotiations and sign the mega deal for six new conventional diesel-electric submarines with better stealth features this fiscal, in what will be a culmination of a nearly 30-year journey, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint that Navy is catering for signing of the Project 75 India (P75I) contract by end of March next year and is looking at even making the first tranche of payment.

Regarding the cost factor, the sources said that negotiations are still on and the state-run Mazagon Dockyard Limited (MDL), which has tied up with German firm ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), has “significantly” brought down the cost.
It is learnt that this would be the most expensive conventional submarine contract to be signed in the world even though cost has been brought down.

As reported by ThePrint earlier, when the project received a fresh Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) in 2018, it was benchmarked at Rs 43,000 crore. However, MDL and TKMS’s bid crossed Rs 1.2 lakh crore, with GST pushing it even higher.

When the MDL-TKMS bid was chosen earlier this year, the Germans were sounded to pare the costs down, with the Navy hoping to finalise the deal in the Rs 60,000 crore–70,000 crore range.

However, it is learnt that despite the cost being brought down by the MDL, the primary contractor, the deal may cost around Rs 90,000 crore, almost double of what was earmarked in 2019.

The sources said that since the initial bid, there has been a new management at MDL, which negotiated with the Germans and brought the cost down.

According to the request for proposal (RFP), the first submarine must be delivered seven years after contract signing with 45 percent indigenous content, followed by one each year until the programme reaches 60 percent localisation.

This means that even if a contract is signed tomorrow, the first submarine will be delivered only in 2032, and that too, if there is no delay.


The sources are apprehensive that technical consultations and design verification could take time. While TKMS is seen as a reliable partner, the sources remained sceptical of the MDL claim of delivering the first submarine within 7 years of signing the contract.

The Strategic Partnership model, under which the project is being executed, was meant to break the monopoly of state-run yards by bringing private players into submarine building.

But with only L&T qualifying in the private sector, the Navy roped in MDL as well for the P75I. TKMS, initially in talks with L&T, ultimately switched sides to MDL, sensing a possible single vendor situation.

L&T later tied up with Spanish firm Navantia and bid for the project. However, their bid was disqualified on the ground that the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system that allows the submarine to remain under water for longer durations has still not been integrated with a sea sailing boat.

Because of this, the sources said, there was no price discovery made and the German bid was accepted.

The new TKMS submarines will be built on an entirely new design, not based on its proven Type 212/214 platforms. Unlike the conventional rounded hulls, the new design will feature angular lines for reduced sonar signature, TKMS CEO Khalil Rahman had told ThePrint in July last year.

This meant that the submarine design would not be as mature as those already built by the TKMS even if inspired from the existing design. However, it is now learnt that the new design will be based on Type 214 and will be larger than it is. The new design is in the last stages of being finalised, the sources said.