The ONLY way I find this expense justifiable is if this was somehow a precondition for having an FTA with the EU.
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
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The ONLY way I find this expense justifiable is if this was somehow a precondition for having an FTA with the EU.
There should be public parliamentary-level oversight of these excessively expensive acquisitions, similar to that in the West.
Well you consider the expected delays, some items are delayed by 12-24 months when foreign sourced deal like scorpene. On top they argue about to whom the delay is attributed so LD can be charged. More delay = more upkeep cost in the yard which the shipbuilder will factor in when quoting. German sourced items are always high expensive. Then the LD provision is increased by Navy in anticipation of those delay so there again higher provision built into the quote. If it really touches max 15% in fiscal and you consider provisioning for 24 months delay due to supply chain issues + recent Red Sea disruption so alternative route or air traffic which cost more, obviously higher estimates went into that. So in CNC negotiation they will drop the quote amount to what, like at best 4-8% max, can not be more?
The IN understandably wants a qualitative edge in the neighborhood. Most Western analysts say that the Yuan/Hangor SSK is a credible threat (with its clear Kilo/Lada design influence).
But the decision to go with a new Type 214/216 variant is risky to say the least.
Everyone knows that brochure specs are highly inflated. Though TKMS design and engineering skills are nothing to scoff at, the Greeks had a ton of problems with their new Type 214s in the early 2000s.
www.koreatimes.co.kr
I'd say we should have settled on the proven design template of the RSN Invincible class or the Israeli Dakar class template which are now entering service.
But the decision to go with a new Type 214/216 variant is risky to say the least.
Everyone knows that brochure specs are highly inflated. Though TKMS design and engineering skills are nothing to scoff at, the Greeks had a ton of problems with their new Type 214s in the early 2000s.
How Greece's acquisition of Type 214 submarines failed - The Korea Times
The most dangerous moment in national security arrives when decision-makers trust the numbers written on paper more than reality itself. The Greek...
I'd say we should have settled on the proven design template of the RSN Invincible class or the Israeli Dakar class template which are now entering service.
All new design are untested before there induction......... Things have changed since Greek fiasco...... TKMS is offering us something unparalleled & technological superior product...... Nothing like which will ever be available to our enemies for multiple decades to come....... As far as Yuan/Hangor SSK goes, that sub is a relic by modern technological standards....... Worse than Russian improved kilo & far far noiser than kalvari class.The IN understandably wants a qualitative edge in the neighborhood. Most Western analysts say that the Yuan/Hangor SSK is a credible threat (with its clear Kilo/Lada design influence).
But the decision to go with a new Type 214/216 variant is risky to say the least.
Everyone knows that brochure specs are highly inflated. Though TKMS design and engineering skills are nothing to scoff at, the Greeks had a ton of problems with their new Type 214s in the early 2000s.
How Greece's acquisition of Type 214 submarines failed - The Korea Times
The most dangerous moment in national security arrives when decision-makers trust the numbers written on paper more than reality itself. The Greek...
I'd say we should have settled on the proven design template of the RSN Invincible class or the Israeli Dakar class template which are now entering service.
Since India is supposed to get the IPR to this new TKMS design, any cost escalations and technical risks will have to borne by us. That's the problem. We should've insisted on a proven in-service hull design rather than just a proven at-sea AIP.
In any case, Dakar/Invincible are brand new boats and have very advanced sensors and stealth.
India, Germany set to cement biggest military contract to make six subs - The Tribune
India and Germany could cement their biggest military contract to jointly produce latest submarines for the Indian Navy.
For once, I hope they clarify the exact model we're getting - Type 214, Type 212C/D or a hybrid. Press reports so far have been all over the place.
Personally, I'm skeptical about us getting U212C/D because the original U212 variant was restricted for sale outside Europe.
It has sensitive acoustic silencing tech that Germany might not want to part with. Plus very expensive at over $1B per unit. That's in the same ballpark as a P-15A/B DDG mind you.
I'd be glad to be wrong though.
Personally, I'm skeptical about us getting U212C/D because the original U212 variant was restricted for sale outside Europe.
It has sensitive acoustic silencing tech that Germany might not want to part with. Plus very expensive at over $1B per unit. That's in the same ballpark as a P-15A/B DDG mind you.
I'd be glad to be wrong though.
we are trying to acquire systems from two main european countries whose long term commitment is absolutely suspect. Chances of this ending up like like engines from GE is pretty high.
Hope fully we dont compromise on our missiles and drone programs.
Defence ministry to seek CCS approval to build 6 submarines under Project 75
The project, to be executed with the support of Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) under Project 75 India, is estimated at $8 billion ( ₹66,000 crore).| India News
www.hindustantimes.com
With the cost negotiating committee (CNC) successfully completing its work, the defence ministry will soon approach the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for approval to construct six air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarines at Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL). The project, to be executed with the support of Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) under Project 75 India, is estimated at $8 billion ( ₹66,000 crore), with the submarines expected to be commissioned by the end of this decade.
HT learns that the Indian Navy expects the CCS to give the green light within the current fiscal year, following approvals from the finance department. People familiar with the matter said the CNC has negotiated the construction price of each submarine within the projected cost band.
India’s sea-based capabilities will get a huge boost with the acquisition of an Akula-class nuclear-powered conventionally armed submarine from Russia in 2027-2028, and the commissioning of two more SSBNs (INS Aridhaman and INS AriSudan). The Narendra Modi government has approved the construction of two SSNs for the Strategic Forces Command in 2025 and work has begun on Project 77.
Government pact to clear way for $10 billion submarine deal with Germany
India is set to sign a major deal for new submarines by March end. This multi-billion dollar contract with Germany will bring advanced technology. Mazagon Dockyards Limited will build six submarines in India. The deal aims to boost India's naval capabilities and create jobs. This will help...
India is set to sign a multi-billion dollar deal to construct next-generation conventional submarines by the end of March, with an Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA) finalised with Germany for long-term support and export clearances and cost negotiations with Mazagaon Dockyards Limited (MDL) completed.
Sources said the IGA was finalised recently and the German defence minister is expected to visit India by end of March for the final signing. While the main contract will be signed between MDL and the defence ministry, the IGA will give a larger umbrella of assurances for technology transfer, training of personnel and administrative clearances.
The high value contract can also place India as a warship building hub for the German company that is seeking new markets and estimates that Indian shipbuilders can bring down costs significantly, enabling joint exports in the region.
The navy is keen to sign the contract in the current financial year, given that it is facing a severe shortage in underwater platforms. The mainstay Kilo class submarines are being retired as they have reached end of service life and the only additions in the past two decades have been six of the Kalvari class submarines, also manufactured by MDL. The navy also has financial provisions in the current year that need to be utilised and would be used for the first payments to MDL for the mega contract.
Government pact to clear way for $10 billion submarine deal with Germany
India is set to sign a major deal for new submarines by March end. This multi-billion dollar contract with Germany will bring advanced technology. Mazagon Dockyards Limited will build six submarines in India. The deal aims to boost India's naval capabilities and create jobs. This will help...www.economictimes.com
India is set to sign a multi-billion dollar deal to construct next-generation conventional submarines by the end of March, with an Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA) finalised with Germany for long-term support and export clearances and cost negotiations with Mazagaon Dockyards Limited (MDL) completed.
Sources said the IGA was finalised recently and the German defence minister is expected to visit India by end of March for the final signing. While the main contract will be signed between MDL and the defence ministry, the IGA will give a larger umbrella of assurances for technology transfer, training of personnel and administrative clearances.
The high value contract can also place India as a warship building hub for the German company that is seeking new markets and estimates that Indian shipbuilders can bring down costs significantly, enabling joint exports in the region.
The navy is keen to sign the contract in the current financial year, given that it is facing a severe shortage in underwater platforms. The mainstay Kilo class submarines are being retired as they have reached end of service life and the only additions in the past two decades have been six of the Kalvari class submarines, also manufactured by MDL. The navy also has financial provisions in the current year that need to be utilised and would be used for the first payments to MDL for the mega contract.
Navy, Germany’s TKMS wrap up cost negotiations for new submarines, P-75I deal likely early next fiscal
It is estimated the deal would eventually work out to cost around $9 bn at least for 6 submarines—negotiated down by India. Original bid by state-run MDL & TKMS was over Rs 1.2 lakh cr.
theprint.in
It'd be interesting to know whether the IN got the Germans to part with sensitive tech like sub torpedo tube/ non-magnetic hull fabrication tech for this kind of money. HDW was generous with ToT for the Type 209 back in the 1980s.
Untill and unless that expertise (ToT of whatever level it might be), is accessible by those actually designing the sub in India, it's useless.
For example HAL has the expertise for Adour, RD33 and AL31s while GTRE is struggling to develop everything from scratch. In this case the ToT is useless.