Project 18, Next Generation Destroyer (NGD) : News and Updates

randomradio

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It is a very 'interesting' list - but I am not sure how to read it correctly. It would be a miracle if all these systems could be contracted for in 10 years, let alone 1. But then why are crucial programs such as MCM missing?

The big boost in their capital budget this year should give you the answer.

MCM is only a lease for now, not a purchase. A new tender is necessary.

MRSAM seems to figure a lot and at least to me that was a surprise.

It's only the missiles for the new ships coming in.
 
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aditya g

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May 11, 2020
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Most of the critical equipment in Indian navy is a foreign maal.

Yes and no.

A lot of the 'critical maal' is nominally Indian or Indian made (Brahmos, Varunastra, MRSAM). Other critical maal (MCM, PDMS, towed sonars, new gen submarine HWT) we are simply not buying so no problems :ROFLMAO:
 

Parthu

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Interesting tid bits from this promotional video of Next-Generation Combat Management System (ostensibly intended for NGD and NGF programs):


Could this be a conceptual render of the 10,000-13,000 ton NGD, unofficially known as the Project-18 DDG?

ngd.JPG


ngd 3.JPG


ngd 2.JPG


Few observations:

  • This is definitely Fincantieri-assisted design. Lots of similarity between this and the Italian Navy DDX concept (pic below), but there are key differences.
  • 72 VLS up front...another farm is present amidships, but I'm not entirely sure if its the same size but looking smaller due to perspective or if it's really a smaller farm. Either way, it would have 48-72 cells in the back for a total of 120-144 Universal VLS cells for SAMs, LACMs, smaller ASCMs, ASROCs etc. This is likely the same UVLS that was reported as being under development by DRDO.
  • They seem to have gotten rid of the BrahMos UVLM launchers (most likely the future BrahMos-II hypersonic missiles would have required the same or similar sized ones) and instead moved to 8 x inclined launchers for the SSM armament. It's yet unclear if the rear VLS farm is a 'modular' block which could be swapped for one equipped with large VLS for outsize articles (like hypersonics or SMART anti-sub missiles), such as what's intended for US Navy's DDG(X).
  • There is no visible secondary radar/volumn search radar anywhere. This could be an indication that the radar mast depicted here could be housing a multi-band radar setup (the LRMFR is already in testing on INS Anvesh) that can do both jobs within a single integrated radar housing, similar to what's on the Zumwalt-class.
  • The arrangement of exhaust funnels is unique and a lot can be inferred i.e. they are 100% moving away from Zorya-Mashproekt turbines and toward Rolls Royce MT30. MoUs have already been signed as previously reported, along with a joint development contract for customized IEP intended for warm-water applications between GE & BEL.

This is all of course considering this render is indeed somewhat indicative of the direction NGD/NGF are taking...if this turns out to be just a representative render, well then,...

Thanks to @Ashwin for finding.

@randomradio @vstol Jockey @Amarante @Gautam

Eq4K6qpXIAARqaC
 

Fatalis

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IMO it can be placeholder image because it has too many similarities with the DDX but at the same time some key differences. Once can see DDX having only 16 VLS at the forward part but the video has a whooping 72 vls. No, other sensor aside from the S-band radar mast is visible which doesn't sense. But yeah, it is indeed an interesting concept. Let's wait for the official things.
 

marich01

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Aug 17, 2022
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I guess

72 x LRsam/MRsam/VLSRsam system in forward deck
36-48 x SSM system in behind.
16 inclined launchers brahmos ng?
 

Parthu

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IMO it can be placeholder image because it has too many similarities with the DDX but at the same time some key differences. Once can see DDX having only 16 VLS at the forward part but the video has a whooping 72 vls. No, other sensor aside from the S-band radar mast is visible which doesn't sense. But yeah, it is indeed an interesting concept. Let's wait for the official things.

Things like VLS loadout & Sensor suite will be unique for each customer Navy anyway. For example the Australian Hunter-class is configured very differently compared to UK's City-class frigate even though both are based on same Type-26 baseline design. Same for US Navy's upcoming Constellation-class compared to the FREMM that it's based on.

We'll see if this is indeed the design they've chosen...hopefully something will be shown at upcoming DEFEXPO, at least a poster.

The lack of a secondary radar, like I said, is an indication of the main radar housing either being multi-band or at least capable of incorporating volumn-search functionalities such as the SPY-3 on Zumwalt-class. That's why ships like Zumwalt don't have separate surveillance radars. We still don't know what all the in-development LRMFR is capable of.

What's interesting is that this render is from WESEE - the ones who are responsible for developing the Combat Management System, if anyone is aware of the direction they are taking with regard to Sensors & Weapons, its them. Which is why the fact they made such deliberate modifications (we know they did not just hire someone to copy-paste DDX model) to the fitments is worth noting.

I guess

72 x LRsam/MRsam/VLSRsam system in forward deck
36-48 x SSM system in behind.
16 inclined launchers brahmos ng?

The forward farm is likely dedicated to a mix of Air Defence + BMD missiles.

The rear farm is more interesting. With inclined launchers already present for SSMs, all of the aft cells are free for Land-Attack missiles.

There's only 8 inclined launchers visible. Understandable, considering we're seeing a change in the roles traditionally performed by Destroyers vis-a-vis Frigates. NGD + NGF will be very different compared to P15A/B + P17/A. Going forward, ASuW & ASW are likely to be roles preferably performed by the NGF. Hence, reduction in SSM armament from 16 to 8 on the NGD makes sense. NGF will probably be carrying 16-24 SSMs, perhaps in VLS.

I wrote a small piece on this a while ago, linking below:

(bottom part)

 

Ashwin

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The rear farm is more interesting. With inclined launchers already present for SSMs, all of the aft cells are free for Land-Attack missiles.
Retaining inclined launchers is the puzzling part for me.
 

Parthu

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Retaining inclined launchers is the puzzling part for me.

Sorry, I misunderstood your question.

Inclined box launchers are a rather cheap & easy way to add (or remove) capability as and when required. Very much like how the Type 45 carries Harpoon launchers when it wants to eventhough ASuW is a role for Type 23.
 
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Ankit Kumar

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Interesting tid bits from this promotional video of Next-Generation Combat Management System (ostensibly intended for NGD and NGF programs):


Could this be a conceptual render of the 10,000-13,000 ton NGD, unofficially known as the Project-18 DDG?

View attachment 24847

View attachment 24848

View attachment 24849

Few observations:

  • This is definitely Fincantieri-assisted design. Lots of similarity between this and the Italian Navy DDX concept (pic below), but there are key differences.
  • 72 VLS up front...another farm is present amidships, but I'm not entirely sure if its the same size but looking smaller due to perspective or if it's really a smaller farm. Either way, it would have 48-72 cells in the back for a total of 120-144 Universal VLS cells for SAMs, LACMs, smaller ASCMs, ASROCs etc. This is likely the same UVLS that was reported as being under development by DRDO.
  • They seem to have gotten rid of the BrahMos UVLM launchers (most likely the future BrahMos-II hypersonic missiles would have required the same or similar sized ones) and instead moved to 8 x inclined launchers for the SSM armament. It's yet unclear if the rear VLS farm is a 'modular' block which could be swapped for one equipped with large VLS for outsize articles (like hypersonics or SMART anti-sub missiles), such as what's intended for US Navy's DDG(X).
  • There is no visible secondary radar/volumn search radar anywhere. This could be an indication that the radar mast depicted here could be housing a multi-band radar setup (the LRMFR is already in testing on INS Anvesh) that can do both jobs within a single integrated radar housing, similar to what's on the Zumwalt-class.
  • The arrangement of exhaust funnels is unique and a lot can be inferred i.e. they are 100% moving away from Zorya-Mashproekt turbines and toward Rolls Royce MT30. MoUs have already been signed as previously reported, along with a joint development contract for customized IEP intended for warm-water applications between GE & BEL.

This is all of course considering this render is indeed somewhat indicative of the direction NGD/NGF are taking...if this turns out to be just a representative render, well then,...

Thanks to @Ashwin for finding.

@randomradio @vstol Jockey @Amarante @Gautam

Eq4K6qpXIAARqaC
Italians have worked upon INS Vikrant with us. Maybe they are consultants for NGD also ?
 

Gautam

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Good find @Ashwin @Parthu
Few observations:

  • This is definitely Fincantieri-assisted design. Lots of similarity between this and the Italian Navy DDX concept (pic below), but there are key differences.
  • 72 VLS up front...another farm is present amidships, but I'm not entirely sure if its the same size but looking smaller due to perspective or if it's really a smaller farm. Either way, it would have 48-72 cells in the back for a total of 120-144 Universal VLS cells for SAMs, LACMs, smaller ASCMs, ASROCs etc. This is likely the same UVLS that was reported as being under development by DRDO.
  • They seem to have gotten rid of the BrahMos UVLM launchers (most likely the future BrahMos-II hypersonic missiles would have required the same or similar sized ones) and instead moved to 8 x inclined launchers for the SSM armament. It's yet unclear if the rear VLS farm is a 'modular' block which could be swapped for one equipped with large VLS for outsize articles (like hypersonics or SMART anti-sub missiles), such as what's intended for US Navy's DDG(X).
  • There is no visible secondary radar/volumn search radar anywhere. This could be an indication that the radar mast depicted here could be housing a multi-band radar setup (the LRMFR is already in testing on INS Anvesh) that can do both jobs within a single integrated radar housing, similar to what's on the Zumwalt-class.
  • The arrangement of exhaust funnels is unique and a lot can be inferred i.e. they are 100% moving away from Zorya-Mashproekt turbines and toward Rolls Royce MT30. MoUs have already been signed as previously reported, along with a joint development contract for customized IEP intended for warm-water applications between GE & BEL.
Excellent summation. Let me add a few things:

1. The biggest change from the original Italian design is the main radar mast. First the Kolkatas, then the Vizags & Nilgiris. The Navy loves that mast.

2. The main gun on the Italian DDX is the Otobreda 127mm x 64 cal. That's an obvious choice for the Italians. As you know, for us this has been a problematic point for years. Do we go with the Otobreda or the BAE Mark45 Mod4? It is difficult to freeze designs without clarity of supply of such critical equipment.

3. The renders shown in the navy video shows two 76mm SRGMs placed mid-ship & another one overlooking the helo-deck. That is understandable for a ship this long. I can see a few mounted machine guns too. Probably 12.7mm. There are 2 CIWS mid-ship just infront of the SRGMs. Just 2 for a ship this big? What's more the CIWS appears to be an American Phalanx. What the fook ? o_O

4. There is a dish like thing behind the rear VLS farm, beside the exhaust vents. Secondary radar? Why would it look like that? Can't be a satcom, those can be seen behind.

5. No FCRs? Will the primary radar take up that role?

6. No RBU-6000? How did this happen? I mean I love it, but still how? 🤨

The lack of a secondary radar, like I said, is an indication of the main radar housing either being multi-band or at least capable of incorporating volumn-search functionalities such as the SPY-3 on Zumwalt-class. That's why ships like Zumwalt don't have separate surveillance radars. We still don't know what all the in-development LRMFR is capable of.
There was a LRDE paper I read where they were exploring non-homogenous TRMs on a single radar panel. They were trying to explore is there was any way of balancing the needs of a radar that does volume scan, anti-aircraft, BMD & EW. So, they would have TRMs radiating different frequencies on the same panel. These TRMs would have different power, cooling & space needs.

Incorporating volume search capabilities on a modern powerful AESA radar is not a very challenging task. But what they were exploring was beyond just having a new search mode.

Italians have worked upon INS Vikrant with us. Maybe they are consultants for NGD also ?
Fincantieri also were a consultant to the MDL for readying the shipyard to adopt modular construction method for the Nilgiri class frigates. They also built an oil tanker for the Navy many years ago.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
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Interesting tid bits from this promotional video of Next-Generation Combat Management System (ostensibly intended for NGD and NGF programs):


Could this be a conceptual render of the 10,000-13,000 ton NGD, unofficially known as the Project-18 DDG?

View attachment 24847

View attachment 24848

View attachment 24849

Few observations:

  • This is definitely Fincantieri-assisted design. Lots of similarity between this and the Italian Navy DDX concept (pic below), but there are key differences.
  • 72 VLS up front...another farm is present amidships, but I'm not entirely sure if its the same size but looking smaller due to perspective or if it's really a smaller farm. Either way, it would have 48-72 cells in the back for a total of 120-144 Universal VLS cells for SAMs, LACMs, smaller ASCMs, ASROCs etc. This is likely the same UVLS that was reported as being under development by DRDO.
  • They seem to have gotten rid of the BrahMos UVLM launchers (most likely the future BrahMos-II hypersonic missiles would have required the same or similar sized ones) and instead moved to 8 x inclined launchers for the SSM armament. It's yet unclear if the rear VLS farm is a 'modular' block which could be swapped for one equipped with large VLS for outsize articles (like hypersonics or SMART anti-sub missiles), such as what's intended for US Navy's DDG(X).
  • There is no visible secondary radar/volumn search radar anywhere. This could be an indication that the radar mast depicted here could be housing a multi-band radar setup (the LRMFR is already in testing on INS Anvesh) that can do both jobs within a single integrated radar housing, similar to what's on the Zumwalt-class.
  • The arrangement of exhaust funnels is unique and a lot can be inferred i.e. they are 100% moving away from Zorya-Mashproekt turbines and toward Rolls Royce MT30. MoUs have already been signed as previously reported, along with a joint development contract for customized IEP intended for warm-water applications between GE & BEL.

This is all of course considering this render is indeed somewhat indicative of the direction NGD/NGF are taking...if this turns out to be just a representative render, well then,...

Thanks to @Ashwin for finding.

@randomradio @vstol Jockey @Amarante @Gautam

Eq4K6qpXIAARqaC
Stealth design? 🙄
 

Parthu

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Dec 1, 2017
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1. The biggest change from the original Italian design is the main radar mast. First the Kolkatas, then the Vizags & Nilgiris. The Navy loves that mast.

I have to wonder if its not a placeholder though, due to the LRMFR's operational radar housing not yet being frozen. On the other hand if its just going to be MFSTAR again, the lack of a prominent secondary radar cannot be explained.

2. The main gun on the Italian DDX is the Otobreda 127mm x 64 cal. That's an obvious choice for the Italians. As you know, for us this has been a problematic point for years. Do we go with the Otobreda or the BAE Mark45 Mod4? It is difficult to freeze designs without clarity of supply of such critical equipment.

Yea - I'm also certain this time around they'll want to develop one indigenously as well. Tbh, I'm surprised all the progress made on Dhanush /45 and ATAGS /52 guns has not even spawned even a study for possible naval application. On a ship the size of the NGD (if we make it same as DDX, it'll be at least 11,000 tons) even a 155mm main gun won't be out of place. It would also open the doors for a pool of new ammo types that would be common to the land-based cousins such as Excalibur or future Ramjet-powered 155 shells.

15,000-ton Zumwalt was supposed to have 2 x 155mm guns - their plan didn't work out, thanks to the ammo being unnecessarily sophisticated, but it shows the calibre has naval applications especially on a DDG.
3. The renders shown in the navy video shows two 76mm SRGMs placed mid-ship & another one overlooking the helo-deck. That is understandable for a ship this long. I can see a few mounted machine guns too. Probably 12.7mm. There are 2 CIWS mid-ship just infront of the SRGMs. Just 2 for a ship this big? What's more the CIWS appears to be an American Phalanx. What the fook ? o_O

I don't think we can take a call on the CIWS yet - we know IN wants DEWs on NG combatants eventually. Yes, 2 x capable modern CIWS like Phalanx or Goalkeeper should be enough.

4. There is a dish like thing behind the rear VLS farm, beside the exhaust vents. Secondary radar? Why would it look like that? Can't be a satcom, those can be seen behind.

No idea...its a parabolic antenna so has to be some kind of transceiver/radar...but that's no place to put a surveillance radar, half its field of view is blocked, and there's an SRGM on the other side so we know there isn't a second one covering that sector.

My first thought was some kind of illumination radar like SPG-62 (which strangely is still present even on DDG(X) concept), but that's still a bad spot for it and it can't see anything behind the ship.

5. No FCRs? Will the primary radar take up that role?

Possibly - Right now I'm thinking the primary radar housing will contain several different 'sections' of the array dedicated for various roles.

Fincantieri also were a consultant to the MDL for readying the shipyard to adopt modular construction method for the Nilgiri class frigates. They also built an oil tanker for the Navy many years ago.

Italians have worked upon INS Vikrant with us. Maybe they are consultants for NGD also ?

And the Shivalik class before that. Fincantieri has had a hand in DND's design efforts for a long time. There's also cooperating on NGMV - reason why I think that ship may actually end up being a modified Doha-class.

Besides, it seems the Italians are still iterating their DDX design, this is the latest one I've seen:

FQzQ4A3WQAQMYX4


It seems DND has seized on the older iteration as a baseline for NGD.
 

Fatalis

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Sep 30, 2022
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There was AoN for indigenous 127mm gun few months back under Make I category.


The funny part for me is that not even Italian Navy has put any promotional video of DDX aside from the one you posted and yet we made a full video showing them working together in action and taking down target.

Also, DND is now WDB.
 

Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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I have to wonder if its not a placeholder though, due to the LRMFR's operational radar housing not yet being frozen. On the other hand if its just going to be MFSTAR again, the lack of a prominent secondary radar cannot be explained.
Good point. If I recall correctly the MF_STAR was put on MoD's negative import list. DRDO's LR-MFR was touted to be a superstructure mounted radar, not a mast mounted one.
Yea - I'm also certain this time around they'll want to develop one indigenously as well. Tbh, I'm surprised all the progress made on Dhanush /45 and ATAGS /52 guns has not even spawned even a study for possible naval application. On a ship the size of the NGD (if we make it same as DDX, it'll be at least 11,000 tons) even a 155mm main gun won't be out of place. It would also open the doors for a pool of new ammo types that would be common to the land-based cousins such as Excalibur or future Ramjet-powered 155 shells.

15,000-ton Zumwalt was supposed to have 2 x 155mm guns - their plan didn't work out, thanks to the ammo being unnecessarily sophisticated, but it shows the calibre has naval applications especially on a DDG.
My thoughts exactly. The testing infra, data from previous tests, working models etc. are all available to the DRDO. The complete IP of those guns is with the DRDO/pvt. industry. The only thing missing is a tested sliding breech block mechanism for the 155mm guns. The current artillery guns (Dhanush & ATAGS) use a screw type breech locking mechanism. That type of mechanism provides better accuracy & safety but reduces rate of fire. In contrast a sliding breech type mechanism provides higher rate of fire at the cost of accuracy & safety. A naval main gun requires higher rate of fire than a land-based artillery gun.

The biggest sliding breech type gun we have now is the Arjun's 120mm main gun. Scaling that upto 155mm & testing it will be the most time-consuming task. Other than that, I don't see a lot of challenge in making a 155mm naval gun. If corrosion at sea is an issue, we can switch to titanium alloys & get Bharat Forge to manufacture it.
I don't think we can take a call on the CIWS yet - we know IN wants DEWs on NG combatants eventually. Yes, 2 x capable modern CIWS like Phalanx or Goalkeeper should be enough.
Switch from one import to another. 😑
We license manufacture the AK-630 & have 2 upcoming MANPAD/VSHORAD systems in development. We have many short range FCR in service/development. The pieces for a modern CIWS are all available.
And the Shivalik class before that. Fincantieri has had a hand in DND's design efforts for a long time. There's also cooperating on NGMV - reason why I think that ship may actually end up being a modified Doha-class.
Googled Doha-class. Interesting ship. It is bigger that what the NGMV is projected to be & carries a lighter payload than that of the NGMV. If that ship serves as the base for the NGMV design than the Navy would have to loosen their requirements of max. displacement/length etc.

I would argue that a design inspired by the Kamorta class has a better chance than a Doha-class inspired design. Let's see.
It seems DND has seized on the older iteration as a baseline for NGD.
If they bought out the basic design data from the Italians to modify the ship to their needs, then this is a very good move. Saves the time spent on doing basic design & move straight to detailed design phase.

Well, this is very interesting. So long as we can mount our own ESM/EW/Comms systems.