Operation Sindoor: Aftermath

What is more important for us is that we got to know the real capabilities of China. After the arrival of Astra MK1 (160 KM range), Astra MK2 (240 K.M.) Range and Gandiv, our BVR capabilities will take a big Jump. If we are able to get Super Sukhois in time, we shall have a great capability to even deal with Stealth like J 35 with VIrupaksh which is said to have the capabilities to detect something Like J20 from 200 kms. With the arrival of Brahmos NG, Rudram II and III, our standoff capability will get a big boost. We shall be able to lock on to the target from a range well beyond the reach of enemy's air defense.
1. the upgraded su30mki is not enough to deal with the j20s and j35s. Sure it can detect them at 200 kms but can it acheive weapons grade lock it yet to be seen.
2. standoff capablity is looking very good tbh with the brahmos NG and the rudrams. Hopefully they get them on time.
3. You seem to forget that the chinese also have a massively upgraded su27 varaint which is the j16D. Its only slightly worse than the super 30 and unlike the super 30 is operational which means they have a very significant experience gap.

The next 10-15 years for india is not offence but complete defense vs china. Theyre not even fighting us, they fighting the US and so theyre capablities are going to vastly outmatch us for a longgggg while. Until our economy is pretty good by the mid to late 2030s its complete defense and hope that they dont *censored* with you for no reason.
 
Why?
Like has war become a joke among us? do people not REALISE WHAT THE *censored* WAR IS?

@HariPrasad stop saying randomn shit like a 12 year old who has no idea what people have to go through in war. its not a fking video game. maybe you should be the first on the frontlines and even then your opinion is moot because there are tens of thousands if not millions who would die.

Just to keep us on our toes my *censored*. What an idiotic statement
Our system doesn't have the unity, sturdiness required to become that kind of state. A state on constant military interventions, conflicts etc outside of its borders.
 
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Our system doesn't have the unity, sturdiness required to become that kind of state. A state on constant military interventions, conflicts etc outside of its borders.

If we do not have, we can build it. That capability is a must. We are growing in stature, our economy is growing bigger and bigger. We are surrounded by rogue enemies and to pretends to be our friends are not happy with our growth. We have conflicts of ambitions with China. US do not want to see one more pole emerging in this world who dare to challenge US or exercise a policy which does not have US's recognition. Coming time is challenging. We need couple of strong decades to establish ourselves from where nobody can think to contain us. A lot need to be done on this front. We need a strong, stable and nationalistic government at the center. Modi has delivered whatever he could have. He can not deliver anything batter. He is proving to be disaster on many internal issues. We had a hope from yogi but he proved to be unfit to live up to our expectation. No capable leadership is in sight. Let us wait and watch.
 
Why?
Like has war become a joke among us? do people not REALISE WHAT THE *censored* WAR IS?

@HariPrasad stop saying randomn shit like a 12 year old who has no idea what people have to go through in war. its not a fking video game. maybe you should be the first on the frontlines and even then your opinion is moot because there are tens of thousands if not millions who would die.

Just to keep us on our toes my *censored*. What an idiotic statement
If we do not have, we can build it. That capability is a must. We are growing in stature, our economy is growing bigger and bigger. We are surrounded by rogue enemies and to pretends to be our friends are not happy with our growth. We have conflicts of ambitions with China. US do not want to see one more pole emerging in this world who dare to challenge US or exercise a policy which does not have US's recognition. Coming time is challenging. We need couple of strong decades to establish ourselves from where nobody can think to contain us. A lot need to be done on this front. We need a strong, stable and nationalistic government at the center. Modi has delivered whatever he could have. He can not deliver anything batter. He is proving to be disaster on many internal issues. We had a hope from yogi but he proved to be unfit to live up to our expectation. No capable leadership is in sight. Let us wait and watch.

I am talking about system, not the GOI.
The system includes the people, the state, the Beauracracy, the historical baggage, Politics, The direction of evolution since independence. It also includes how the various factions interact with each other inside the state. All of that results into the system I am referring to.

Consider it as alignment of interest of all the parties involved. We don't have that right now.

That, my friend is a must before a state can look outward and engage in continuous conflicts that you are envisioning.

Let me put some examples forward for you guys:

1) Israel: Currently, the interests of all the parties with stake in Israel( including majority of citizens) are aligned on need to contain Hamas and maintain strong posture against terrorism. Hence, it keeps up the ante even if it doesn't align with International actors all the time.

2) Back when USA was at height of its interventionist policies and power.. all the interests in power back then aligned and people too weren't averse to it.
Once that erode and the current trajectory of US was set.. it is increasingly becoming difficult for US to maintain its past posture. It still maintains whatever leverage it can, but it's undoubtedly declining. Even with the external factors involved, it wouldn't be a threat to US hegemony if there wasn't ideological/interests conflict within US system. The petroleum industry, "green" industry, The big Tech, Plastic, Wokes, Conservative.. their interest has disaligned .

3) Pakistan: On the surface it's united, but under it, there lies disunity b/w various groups, PA, Govt of Pak.. yet it increasingly chose to be in constant state of conflict outside its own domain.. well well well.. it hasn't turned out well for them, and it will only go worse.

4) India: We too doesn't have that unity or alignment of interest.. but fortunately, India has not been an expansionist state. Allowing us to have the time required to solve internal issues first. " The fault lines".
So, it's better path for us to not focus on indulging in constant conflict.. because we don't have the requirement to do it without harming ourselves. Focus on internal management and development first.
 
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What is more important for us is that we got to know the real capabilities of China. After the arrival of Astra MK1 (160 KM range), Astra MK2 (240 K.M.) Range and Gandiv, our BVR capabilities will take a big Jump. If we are able to get Super Sukhois in time, we shall have a great capability to even deal with Stealth like J 35 with VIrupaksh which is said to have the capabilities to detect something Like J20 from 200 kms. With the arrival of Brahmos NG, Rudram II and III, our standoff capability will get a big boost. We shall be able to lock on to the target from a range well beyond the reach of enemy's air defense.
Still no answer to the pl-17 and Netra is still in infancy. We don't have cooperative targetting. Something that even the Pakistanis have mastered with their link 17.
 
You seem to forget that the chinese also have a massively upgraded su27 varaint which is the j16D
The j-11 is the su-27 variant developed by China
J-16 is based on their su-30mkk an inferior version of the mki with no thrust vectoring sold by the Russians. Now it's far superior to our mki's. The The j-11d and j-16 both have an aesa radar and can fire the pl-15(200-300km) as well as pl-17(400km).
In fact both j-11 and j-16 can reach higher speeds than the mki and can go higher altitude.
J-20 is least of our problems. You have around a 1000 flankers and 600 j-10's to face even before you for their 200 something j-20's. We haven't even put their sixth gen j-31 and j-50's which can carry pl-17 internally.
 
The j-11 is the su-27 variant developed by China
J-16 is based on their su-30mkk an inferior version of the mki with no thrust vectoring sold by the Russians. Now it's far superior to our mki's. The The j-11d and j-16 both have an aesa radar and can fire the pl-15(200-300km) as well as pl-17(400km).
In fact both j-11 and j-16 can reach higher speeds than the mki and can go higher altitude.
J-20 is least of our problems. You have around a 1000 flankers and 600 j-10's to face even before you for their 200 something j-20's. We haven't even put their sixth gen j-31 and j-50's which can carry pl-17 internally.
If IAF hadn't fixated its entire focus on the Rafale and had given some attention to the Super Sukhoi program then they would have had a heavily upgraded Su30 MKI in service to go up against PLAAF J-11D and J-16.
Still no answer to the pl-17 and Netra is still in infancy. We don't have cooperative targetting. Something that even the Pakistanis have mastered with their link 17.
Untrue, if I recall there was a Bharat Shakti video published last year that specifically talked about IAF's co-operative engagement tactics.
It was taken down because it revealed a bit too much.
 
If IAF hadn't fixated its entire focus on the Rafale and had given some attention to the Super Sukhoi program then they would have had a heavily upgraded Su30 MKI in service to go up against PLAAF J-11D and J-16.

Untrue, if I recall there was a Bharat Shakti video published last year that specifically talked about IAF's co-operative engagement tactics.
It was taken down because it revealed a bit too much.
We need meteor license production and rafale needs to be integrated to the IACCS
 
The j-11 is the su-27 variant developed by China
J-16 is based on their su-30mkk an inferior version of the mki with no thrust vectoring sold by the Russians. Now it's far superior to our mki's. The The j-11d and j-16 both have an aesa radar and can fire the pl-15(200-300km) as well as pl-17(400km).
In fact both j-11 and j-16 can reach higher speeds than the mki and can go higher altitude.
J-20 is least of our problems. You have around a 1000 flankers and 600 j-10's to face even before you for their 200 something j-20's. We haven't even put their sixth gen j-31 and j-50's which can carry pl-17 internally.
China has multiple strategic direction like Taiwan front,east & south china sea and india etc. they cant move their entire fleet to western theatre command which consist of approx 5-6 air bases within range of LAC. They will have roughly 150-200 aircrafts forward deployed not 1000 + ( acc to availability rate ) and same goes for IAF they will also have approx 200 jets combat ready at a time. so i dont think no of jets will be an issue in case of conflict with china.
IAF will have advantage of lower altitude air bases allowing higher sortie rate & endurance with full payload and fuel
PLAF will have advantage of 5th gen paltforms & extensive missile force targeting our airbases & infrastructure.

so there is no need to overhype raw numbers of PLAF jets ....the result of Air war bw IAF & PLAF would largely depend on many factors like airbases survivabillity , logistics & supply chain , EW capabilities, pilot training & tactics etc.
IAF assessments suggest Rafale can counter J-20 , though at the end of the day real combat will tell who is cooking & who is on the menu.
 
1. the upgraded su30mki is not enough to deal with the j20s and j35s. Sure it can detect them at 200 kms but can it acheive weapons grade lock it yet to be seen.
2. standoff capablity is looking very good tbh with the brahmos NG and the rudrams. Hopefully they get them on time.
3. You seem to forget that the chinese also have a massively upgraded su27 varaint which is the j16D. Its only slightly worse than the super 30 and unlike the super 30 is operational which means they have a very significant experience gap.

The next 10-15 years for india is not offence but complete defense vs china. Theyre not even fighting us, they fighting the US and so theyre capablities are going to vastly outmatch us for a longgggg while. Until our economy is pretty good by the mid to late 2030s its complete defense and hope that they dont *censored* with you for no reason.

What is being said about 2400 TR Module GAN based AESA is that it will be able to detect J 20 from 200 kms. This is very impressive. This neutralizes the stealth advantage of J20 to a large extent. If we are able to put a good EW suit like spectra, most of the advantage of which J20 carries will be neutralized. With new powerful engines, it can be machine to whom we can send to counter J20, the capability which is currently lagging.

Recently, one scientist/High Rank Airforce official had said that Su 57 with Virupaksha and other electronics can be batter than J35. This corroborate what I say. Indian RAM, Virupaksha AESA, Indian mission computer, AI software developed for AMCA, ultra long range BVRS, can transform Su30 MKI and put it in a different league capable of countering fifth generation Chinese stuff. This is not only my wishful thinking, but what is something being planned by IAF to counter Chinese Airforce in Himalayas.

Here, what the mission of upgrade is not only marginal improvement to make it more capable but to put it in a different league capable of handling enemy aircrafts which are 0.5 to 0.75 generation ahead.

Currently, India is giving a massive order of rafale. This reinforces the faith in 4.75 generation rafale to handle 5th generation Chinese stuff. IAF is confident of handling it.

When we talk about handling J 20, Chinese Su 27 upgrade remains irrelevant because if J20 can be handled, Any Su27 can also be handled. China has Su 30 and Su35 as well.
 
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Still no answer to the pl-17 and Netra is still in infancy. We don't have cooperative targetting. Something that even the Pakistanis have mastered with their link 17.

First of all, PL-17 is said to have 400 KMs of range at the most. Our Gandiv is going to have 340 to 350 KM range atleast if it is not revised upward like Astra Mk1 and MK2. In the BVR conflict scenario, what matters is Radar detection range and BVR range combo. Lower of the two will be relevant. Again, detection will dependent on RCS of enemy aircraft. PL 17 can only be useful against SU30 MKI in best case scenario. Rafale, Tejas MK1 and MWF with lower RCS will only be detectable from much closer range than highest range of PL17 so in that case scenario, PL15 and PL 17 will be same. China with 4 to 5 times the defense budget has lot more flexibility in research and development and also in absorbing failures of projects and weapons. We cannot fail. We need innovation and frugle engineering to match Chinese weapons and R & D with various combination and fusion of technologies which exactly we are trying. We too have a Tripple pulse ultra long range BVR project which will have a range higher than current Astra MK III.

yes, we leg behind in numbers in AEW&C, which we need to cope up fast. We compensated that with Akash Teer networking and S400 combo and able to keep Pakistani AWE& C at a bay to neutralize its advantage. With the arrival of Kusha and S500, Pakistani AWE&C shall lose its utility in war.

However, this does not justify the lack of AEW&C and BVR combo advantage. I do not mean that. What I say is that we have a Jugad that worked very well. Operation Sindoor exposed our weaknesses (Which is only relevant for current discussion and not the weaknesses of Chinese/Pakistani systems). We need to work on it and overcome it by 2030.

We do seem to have cracked the codes of GAN based AESA which will go into future Netra making them batter and more effective. What is the need of hour is that it should come fast. New technology developed should translate into product as soon as possible. What we have done in the case of AMCA (By ousting HAL) seems to be the only practical solution. What we have seen in the case of Jorawar has given me a new ray of hope.
 
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Why?
Like has war become a joke among us? do people not REALISE WHAT THE *censored* WAR IS?

@HariPrasad stop saying randomn shit like a 12 year old who has no idea what people have to go through in war. its not a fking video game. maybe you should be the first on the frontlines and even then your opinion is moot because there are tens of thousands if not millions who would die.

Just to keep us on our toes my *censored*. What an idiotic statement

Had you quoted my post in which according to you, I had posted like a 12 year boy, I would have gladly responded to that.
 
Still no answer to the pl-17 and Netra is still in infancy. We don't have cooperative targetting. Something that even the Pakistanis have mastered with their link 17.

This may help.

https://****/does-india-need-a-400-km-very-long-range-air-to-air-missile-like-chinas-pl-17/

https://****/does-india-need-a-400-km-very-long-range-air-to-air-missile-like-chinas-pl-17/
 
PL 17 can only be useful against SU30 MKI in best case scenario. Rafale, Tejas MK1 and MWF with lower RCS will only be detectable from much closer range than highest range of PL17 so in that case scenario, PL15 and PL 17 will be same.
We lost a rafale to pl-15. The whole RCS meme is dead with satellite targetting and AEWCS. You just can't negotiate with size and range. Pl-17 will be huge problem especially if the Chinese have a decent inventory of them by 2030. And our AEWCS would themselves face danger.
We cannot fail. We need innovation and frugle engineering to match Chinese weapons and R & D with various combination and fusion of technologies which exactly we are trying.
We haven't even reverse engineered the pl-15 which we very well could. But instead our bureaucracy will make sure to stifle and suffocate any such attempts to impress the "international community".
With the arrival of Kusha and S500, Pakistani AWE&C shall lose its utility in war.
Pakistan isn't really important here. I'm talking about China here. The pl-17 will not be shared to the Pakistanis until pl-xx and pl-21 get inducted in large numbers. Plus the j-10 cannot fire pl-17. What will we do when the PLAAF actually does air raids around Ladakh and Arunachal when we don't have the BVR stick that outranges their BVR stick. There's a reason I was shilling for the r-37m. Pakistan has no strategic depth and will be crushed regardless. Especially considering their AD isn't impressive. And they will be bulldozed irrespective if they do any tactically brilliant or lucky moves. Attrition, HDI and economics make it impossible for the Pakistanis to do anything significant.
The Chinese on the other hand have already completed their fifth gen cycle and initiated their 6th gen cycle and are in some ways ahead of the Americans.
How are we going to deal with pl-17, kj-500 and kj2000 combo? The gandiv is not operational anytime soon. And even then its effectiveness is up for questioning. We need a 500km BVR missile to even have some kind of deterrence against the plaaf fighters and AEWCS.
 
We haven't even reverse engineered the pl-15 which we very well could. But instead our bureaucracy will make sure to stifle and suffocate any such attempts to impress the "international community".
There is zero benefit that India gains from reverse engineering the PL-15, at best update its ECM/ECCM features and update our threat library accordingly.

The news reports going about that the PL-15 helped DRDO in increasing the range of Astra Mk1 & Mk2 are pure BS devoid of any logic, DRDO had been working on the range extension program since 2021-22.
 
There is zero benefit that India gains from reverse engineering the PL-15, at best update its ECM/ECCM features and update our threat library accordingly.
We could easily make a 400 km missile using the astra fuel mixture with the aesa and mid course data link on the pl-15 chassis which we would be low cost and could be produced enmasse. Plus it's tech can be shared to l&t, TASL, BDL to make pl-15 clones.
 
We lost a rafale to pl-15. The whole RCS meme is dead with satellite targetting and AEWCS. You just can't negotiate with size and range. Pl-17 will be huge problem especially if the Chinese have a decent inventory of them by 2030. And our AEWCS would themselves face danger.

We haven't even reverse engineered the pl-15 which we very well could. But instead our bureaucracy will make sure to stifle and suffocate any such attempts to impress the "international community".

Pakistan isn't really important here. I'm talking about China here. The pl-17 will not be shared to the Pakistanis until pl-xx and pl-21 get inducted in large numbers. Plus the j-10 cannot fire pl-17. What will we do when the PLAAF actually does air raids around Ladakh and Arunachal when we don't have the BVR stick that outranges their BVR stick. There's a reason I was shilling for the r-37m. Pakistan has no strategic depth and will be crushed regardless. Especially considering their AD isn't impressive. And they will be bulldozed irrespective if they do any tactically brilliant or lucky moves. Attrition, HDI and economics make it impossible for the Pakistanis to do anything significant.
The Chinese on the other hand have already completed their fifth gen cycle and initiated their 6th gen cycle and are in some ways ahead of the Americans.
How are we going to deal with pl-17, kj-500 and kj2000 combo? The gandiv is not operational anytime soon. And even then its effectiveness is up for questioning. We need a 500km BVR missile to even have some kind of deterrence against the plaaf fighters and AEWCS.
We need assymetric options in the short to medium term. Imo, one alternative could be to repackage the Astra Mk1's seeker and propulsion into a smaller self-defence AAM similar to LMs CUDA. We already have the building blocks via the VSHORADS/MPDMS project - tech like RCS thrusters.

The key is to increase the A2A loadout for our combat ac (perhaps these SD-AAMs could be sized for 80mm rocket launcher pods (a la APKWS which are already being deployed in the CUAS role by the US)

This will keep them in the fight and allow them to close in for a shot. Another benefit is reduced need for evasive manoeuvres. (The MKI is reportedly getting an AI pilot's associate as part of its UPG - theoretically it can determine the optimal launch point once incoming PL-17 is detected)

For the long term, DRDO is reportedly working on triple pulse propulsion and LFRJ/STAR is reportedly also adapted for A2A role.
 
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