Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

What should we select?


  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .
I spoke to a specialist about the engine and he said:
I find it hard to accept this re-engining as a necessity arising from the TR-3. It seems more like an explanation chosen to mask another message, like a congenital defect that makes the current engine unsuitable for its intended use.
And as I tried to argue in favour of the engine, he added:
That would mean that they've already cut back on all the margins for development, even though the aircraft hasn't yet reached its full capacity. So either it's another problem (undersized engine), or it's a false problem (failed engine, to be redeveloped).

The re-engining seem to be just an upgrade that was planned a long time ago.

Here's an article from 2012:
The F135 is required to provide 43,000lb of thrust in afterburner mode. The XTE68/LF1 is demonstrating a thrust improvement between 5% and 10%, potentially raising the single-engined fighter's overall performance from more than 45,100lb thrust to 47,300lb thrust.

This upgrade is a dropfit for existing engines. It may not only cover the original B4 upgrades, but also the new ones inserted into the B4 program, like GaN radar and 75% increase in EW antennas.

Now GO 2.0 with 20% increase (VCE upgrade), and AETP with 30% increase (new engine) seem to be meant for mid-life modernization, like F-16 B30, so it's not really a re-engining.

2.jpg


Based on this, the new B4 must have subsumed B5 and B6 into it. For example, the latter part of B4 will include EA capability by 2029. The new Advanced EOTS and JPALS are part of B4 now.

So old definitions seem to have changed. We can assume that the new B4 2029 objective is the original B6. The GaN upgrade could take it beyond B7, perhaps B10.
 
The re-engining seem to be just an upgrade that was planned a long time ago.

Here's an article from 2012:
The F135 is required to provide 43,000lb of thrust in afterburner mode. The XTE68/LF1 is demonstrating a thrust improvement between 5% and 10%, potentially raising the single-engined fighter's overall performance from more than 45,100lb thrust to 47,300lb thrust.

This upgrade is a dropfit for existing engines. It may not only cover the original B4 upgrades, but also the new ones inserted into the B4 program, like GaN radar and 75% increase in EW antennas.

Now GO 2.0 with 20% increase (VCE upgrade), and AETP with 30% increase (new engine) seem to be meant for mid-life modernization, like F-16 B30, so it's not really a re-engining.

Based on this, the new B4 must have subsumed B5 and B6 into it. For example, the latter part of B4 will include EA capability by 2029. The new Advanced EOTS and JPALS are part of B4 now.

So old definitions seem to have changed. We can assume that the new B4 2029 objective is the original B6. The GaN upgrade could take it beyond B7, perhaps B10.
I don't think it had anything to do with what was planned, it came out of the blue, with some pretty bizarre explanations, I think they were taken by surprise once again.
 
Seriously, i didn't get any clue on numbers.
But neither did I. I'd heard that 300 Rafales would be a nightmare for China, but that was before this site was created, say 5 years ago, so maybe today it would just be an annoyance? On the other hand, I've heard you say that 200 would be needed, and I've heard that to get an assembly line in India you'd have to order 100 in one go.
So, in my opinion, we need an assembly line to open up the possibilities, knowing that the number produced will depend on events: the speed of production of national programmes, the success or otherwise of the competition, the satisfaction of the IAF and the interest in the evolution of the Rafale programme, exports from India, cooperation with France on the SCAF and AMCA and other factors that I can't even imagine.
 
Only two digit for Rafale airforce vertion? Not gonna cross 100+ number?

But neither did I. I'd heard that 300 Rafales would be a nightmare for China, but that was before this site was created, say 5 years ago, so maybe today it would just be an annoyance? On the other hand, I've heard you say that 200 would be needed, and I've heard that to get an assembly line in India you'd have to order 100 in one go.
So, in my opinion, we need an assembly line to open up the possibilities, knowing that the number produced will depend on events: the speed of production of national programmes, the success or otherwise of the competition, the satisfaction of the IAF and the interest in the evolution of the Rafale programme, exports from India, cooperation with France on the SCAF and AMCA and other factors that I can't even imagine.

90 jets are necessary to start a full production line, for full ToT (50% minimum) to be a possibility. So that's 2 squadrons with kit assembly and 3 squadrons with full production. A final assembly line can be set up with lesser numbers.

The comment about 300 Rafales was just a passing statement. As per the initial IAF plan, they wanted 123 LCA, 200-250 FGFA, 200 Rafales, 200 Gripen/F-16, 150 less advanced version of the current AMCA (powered with a modified F414). That's a little over 900 jets by 2040. No MKIs by then.

So now, 123 LCAs have become 220. Gripen/F-16 has become LCA Mk2. We retain the MKI fleet instead of FGFA. AMCA stays the same. So the only pending decision left is MRFA.

If a third jet (5th gen) is required, they will just have to manipulate the LCA Mk2 and MRFA numbers. Or increase maximum squadron strength to beyond 45.
 
India, France to expedite Rafale M negotiations after Lok Sabha elections

All things considered, the accelerated talks and heightened cooperation indicate a strong alliance between France and India. In addition to bolstering India's air strength, the Rafale agreement is expected to create the groundwork for a defense ecosystem that is more technologically independent

India, France to expedite Rafale M negotiations after Lok Sabha elections

The agreement between India and France to expedite price discussions for the acquisition of 26 Rafale M (Marine) fighter jets is a big step forward for India’s air defense capability. Both countries have decided to give the agreement top priority following the forthcoming general elections in India, recognizing its significance.

A total of 22 single-seater Rafale M aircraft, built especially for aircraft carrier operations, will be acquired by the Indian Navy from IAC-I and II. Four Rafale B (Marine) twin-seat versions will also be used for pilot training.

The negotiations resulted in significant advancements for India’s long-term defense autonomy beyond the immediate acquisition. An important step toward independence has been taken by France with its commitment to increase the sourcing of Rafale components from India. In order to demonstrate this dedication, the semi-structural airframe for the Rafale will shortly be produced and delivered from Dassault Aviation to DRAL.

France has consented to set up an MRO (Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul) facility for the M-88 engines that power the Rafale planes, further solidifying India’s strategic position. In addition to meeting India’s demands, this facility will act as a regional center for maintaining the engines of other Asian Rafale operators.

All things considered, the accelerated talks and heightened cooperation indicate a strong alliance between France and India. In addition to bolstering India’s air strength, the Rafale agreement is expected to create the groundwork for a defense ecosystem that is more technologically independent.
 
India, France to expedite Rafale M negotiations after Lok Sabha elections

All things considered, the accelerated talks and heightened cooperation indicate a strong alliance between France and India. In addition to bolstering India's air strength, the Rafale agreement is expected to create the groundwork for a defense ecosystem that is more technologically independent

India, France to expedite Rafale M negotiations after Lok Sabha elections

The agreement between India and France to expedite price discussions for the acquisition of 26 Rafale M (Marine) fighter jets is a big step forward for India’s air defense capability. Both countries have decided to give the agreement top priority following the forthcoming general elections in India, recognizing its significance.

A total of 22 single-seater Rafale M aircraft, built especially for aircraft carrier operations, will be acquired by the Indian Navy from IAC-I and II. Four Rafale B (Marine) twin-seat versions will also be used for pilot training.

The negotiations resulted in significant advancements for India’s long-term defense autonomy beyond the immediate acquisition. An important step toward independence has been taken by France with its commitment to increase the sourcing of Rafale components from India. In order to demonstrate this dedication, the semi-structural airframe for the Rafale will shortly be produced and delivered from Dassault Aviation to DRAL.

France has consented to set up an MRO (Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul) facility for the M-88 engines that power the Rafale planes, further solidifying India’s strategic position. In addition to meeting India’s demands, this facility will act as a regional center for maintaining the engines of other Asian Rafale operators.

All things considered, the accelerated talks and heightened cooperation indicate a strong alliance between France and India. In addition to bolstering India’s air strength, the Rafale agreement is expected to create the groundwork for a defense ecosystem that is more technologically independent.

So back to 22+4.
 

Rafale-M Fighters Conduct 4000 Km Simulated Strike On Enemy Targets; Set To Boost Indian Navy’s Firepower

The French Rafale-Marine fighter jets conducted a long-range maritime strike as part of the recent NATO drills, codenamed ‘Neptune Strike,’ hailed as the largest NATO deployment since Russia launched the invasion of Ukraine.
NATO Maritime Command’s official handle took to Platform X to announce a record maritime strike simulated by French fighter jets. Two Rafale Marines simulated a long-range maritime strike over 4000 kilometers from the Ionian Sea to the Baltic Sea.

They were guided by ATL2 (a long-range maritime patrol aircraft endowed with endurance and maneuverability when flying low over water in pursuit of a submarine) and supported by air refueling from the French Air and Space Forces.

The post was accompanied by photographs showing the aircraft taking off from the deck of the French Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. The stunning display of a very long-range maritime strike has been hailed by military watchers and netizens alike, who expressed their astonishment and pride in the French capability to deal with impending threats.

NATO launched one of its biggest naval deployments since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine last month, with the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle taking part in military drills under the NATO Command for the first time. The French carrier and its accompanying vessels were the centerpieces of the maritime strike drills aimed at bolstering integration and interoperability among NATO states.

The French carrier was deployed in the Mediterranean, close to its home port of Toulon. Although specific details were not available for security reasons, Rear Adm. Jacques Mallard, Commander of the French CSG, showed a slide of the Charles De Gaulle carrying an embarked airwing of 18 Rafale M fighters, a land-based Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft, two E-2C Hawkeye Airborne Early Warning and Control (AWEC) and two Dauphin helicopters.

NATO described the Neptune Strike (NEST) as a multi-domain and multi-national enhanced vigilance activity. The unscripted maritime exercise honed NATO’s ability to integrate maritime capabilities, including carrier strike groups, to support Allied defense. This made the maritime strike conducted by the Rafale-Ms all the more significant and noteworthy. The mission may have added to the Rafale aircraft’s already skyrocketing popularity.

The Rafale M is a versatile single-seat aircraft designed for a variety of missions. It is capable of quick reaction alerts, air defense, air policing, nuclear deterrence, power projection, external missions, deep strike operations, air support for ground forces, and pilot training sorties.

On its official website, the manufacturer Dassault Aviation notes that the Rafale “complies with the requirement to carry out the widest range of roles with the smallest number of aircraft.”

The service ceiling, or maximum altitude it can reach under standard air conditions, is 50,000 feet. The Rafale M can conduct air-to-ground and air-to-air attacks in a single mission, with a speed range from less than 120 knots (222.24 km per hour) during an approach to a maximum speed of 750 knots (1,389 mph).

With adequate refueling support, the aircraft has demonstrated its ability to conduct long-range strikes by taking off from anywhere on the sea. This capability may also interest India, which is looking to acquire 26 Rafale Marine combat aircraft from France.

Rafale Marines To Boost Indian Maritime Capability

Last year, France received a Letter of Request (LoR) from India to sell Dassault Aviation’s Rafale Marines to the Indian Navy for its aircraft carriers.

The LoR is like a tender document in which the Indian government has outlined all the features and specifications it is looking for in a Rafale Marine aircraft. The cost of the aircraft is also reportedly being worked between the two sides.

India officially informed France of its intention to purchase 26 Rafale fighter aircraft for the Indian Navy, initiating the inter-governmental framework-based acquisition procedure. However, the two sides have yet to sign an official agreement. Should this deal fructify, France would have sold 62 Rafales to India, including 36 to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The order for the naval variant of the Rafale combat jet could be placed later this year to meet the Indian Navy’s urgent operational requirements. The Indian Navy previously informed the Indian Ministry of Defence of its preference for the French fighter aircraft Rafale Marine over the only other contender, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet.

The Indian Navy Air Arm is looking for a replacement for its aging MiG-29K aircraft, the combat air platform for the Russian-origin INS Vikramaditya, the other operational aircraft carrier. The Rafale-M aircraft will be used aboard India’s indigenously developed aircraft carrier INS Vikrant.

The Indian Navy’s first home-built aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, entered service in September 2022. However, critical aviation testing for the conventional MiG-29K carrier-based fighter and the home-based LCA Navy began many months ahead of schedule.

India is developing its own Twin-Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) aircraft to fulfill its long-term requirement for carrier-based missions. However, the Indian Navy has decided to purchase a new carrier-based fighter jet to meet its short-term needs, as it will take some time for the country’s naval combat aircraft to be developed domestically.

When India and France sign an agreement to purchase Rafale Marine, the Indian Navy will become the country’s first export customer for the carrier-based fighter. Paris has already successfully exported the Air Force variant to several countries, including India.

The recent feat accomplished by the jet in the NATO maritime drills augurs well for the reputation of the French aircraft, especially as the country looks to bolster exports further.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Bon Plan