MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Rajput Lion]

The rafale is good but it is by no means a rival or as capable as the su57 which is a next gen jet which smokes other 5th gen jets in most categories, India should have bought su57 when they had the chance.

Anyone who thought that IAF would buy any other jet before they get their desired number of Rafales was just being naive. Anyone, who understands IAF or has inside knowledge would tell very explicitly that for them it was always going to be Rafale 'above all' for them. We've known this for years and very clearly now GOI is also in sync.

About Su-57MKI, no need to fret as it's next in-line post Rafale deal.

 

[Hydra]

Anyone who thought that IAF would buy any other jet before they get their desired number of Rafales was just being naive. Anyone, who understands IAF or has inside knowledge would tell very explicitly that for them it was always going to be Rafale 'above all' for them. We've known this for years and very clearly now GOI is also in sync.

About Su-57MKI, no need to fret as it's next in-line post Rafale deal.

Rafale will be our last foreign aircraft purchase ( hope i should be prove wrong)

 

[Speedster1]

Anyone who thought that IAF would buy any other jet before they get their desired number of Rafales was just being naive. Anyone, who understands IAF or has inside knowledge would tell very explicitly that for them it was always going to be Rafale 'above all' for them. We've known this for years and very clearly now GOI is also in sync.

The 114 Rafales will result in an annual capex outflow of ~$2bn over 15 yrs. Unless the IAF gets a bigger budget, this prog will leave little room for another major fighter acquisition atleast for the foreseeable future.

Just for context, after the licensed production contract for MKI was signed in 2001, the IAF got the Rafale only in 2016.

Su-57MKI will cannibalize AMCA orders just like 114 Rafale will eat into future Mk2 numbers.

 

[batman]

Anyone who thought that IAF would buy any other jet before they get their desired number of Rafales was just being naive. Anyone, who understands IAF or has inside knowledge would tell very explicitly that for them it was always going to be Rafale 'above all' for them. We've known this for years and very clearly now GOI is also in sync.

About Su-57MKI, no need to fret as it's next in-line post Rafale deal.

Will hope that's true.

 

[CATS @hunter]

F16V of Taiwan may face J20 and J35 before Rafale does. But that's an even more hopeless fight.

Rafale vs J-35 is not that far, if the photo is right then we can definitely see rafale going against J-35 this year itself,

 

[Lolwa]

Looks like that's the case increasing IC content gradually but why we should have went for Typhoon ?
Typhoon over Rafale doens't make sense for us and it's choosen after rigorous testing on every parameter.

The typhoon had program issues but because of so many players we would have been able to get far more concessions on it than the rafale. Plus it would lead to some diplomatic leverage over all eurofighter countries. Although typhoon and rafale complement each other.
The rafale fits the mission set of the mirage and jaguar whereas the typhoon fits the mission set of the mig-29. So we should have bought both. But we can't do both because of our aversion to Anglo Saxon technology and also these deals will be used to force us to position ourselves against the Russians.
The typhoon has a superior radar and flight profile that is better positioned to take out j-10's, j-11, j-16's. Also access to American munitions and subsystem and ease of integration of weapons compared to rafale which faces the issues of exclusively using French weapons.
Although Rafales are being armed with new munitions. It's still limited. Still it has a larger variety of munitions than the j-10. It still is smaller than the typhoon. We need to copy American munitions like the jdam,Jsow, amraam, lrasm and integrate it on the rafale. The rafale has a very mature airframe and can carry far more combat load than the typhoon. But it's ground strike focussed while the plaaf and PAF are air superiority focused. Which also gives us a certain advantage as you can see after the 7th May dog fight and our swarm drone attacks on 8th May morning it was smooth sailing for the IAF. We basically were inside Pakistani airspace and the j-10's vanished. The f-16's and jf-17's failed to do A2G attacks. Keep in mind the plaaf doesn't really have a great A2G library. They have the ls3-/ls7 series bombs(jdam copies) but most of their ground attack is limited to surface to surface mlrs/cruise missiles/ballistic missiles. The Pakistanis in fact have access to jdam's, H2,H4 sows(denel raptor), ls series then ra'ad alcm. The plaaf weapons are majorly based on Soviet A2G munitions are dependent on using the h-6k bombers. So the Pakistanis actually have a better library of A2G munitions.
We have far more options for A2G munitions. We are behind in BVR's. They have amraams, pl-15 and pl-17 and upcoming pl-21. So upto 500km of serial coverage. We are limited to 200-300km with meteor being our best missiles.

F-35 is not a air superiority jet it's a strike jet. Can't defeat the J-20 with it. I agree it's a good platform but it's not suitable for us with such string attached. So a big No for F-35 and it's discussed many times in F-35 thread.

Nah it can defeat the j-20. But for it we need e-7

The rafale is good but it is by no means a rival or as capable as the su57 which is a next gen jet which smokes other 5th gen jets in most categories, India should have bought su57 when they had the chance.

The su-57 is only good if we can get hands on the r-37m and k-77ME

Rafale will be our last foreign aircraft purchase ( hope i should be prove wrong)

The f-35 and su-57 are in the pipeline that's for sure.

 

[lmaoxd]

2 billion over 15 years is not that bad if we account for indias growth but stil its a huge amount. the last budget had like 6 bil for new airforce expenses iirc.

The 114 Rafales will result in an annual capex outflow of ~$2bn over 15 yrs. Unless the IAF gets a bigger budget, this prog will leave little room for another major fighter acquisition atleast for the foreseeable future.

Just for context, after the licensed production contract for MKI was signed in 2001, the IAF got the Rafale only in 2016.

Su-57MKI will cannibalize AMCA orders just like 114 Rafale will eat into future Mk2 numbers.

Also isnt the defence budget expected to get a significant increase this year? if we push to 100 billion then we would have a okayish budget to deal with this along with accounting for growth. The EU trade deal might actually accelerate a lot of things for us.

With this buying the su57 or an MKI version would be possible without too much resistance from EU and possibly even the US although with trump in charge you just dont know.

 

[lmaoxd]

The su-57 is only good if we can get hands on the r-37m and k-77ME

The f-35 and su-57 are in the pipeline that's for sure.

we dont need the R37M or the especially the k77ME with the astra mk2 and astra mk3 although the r37M might be useful if they allow production in india.

The Russian's are ready to give us full source code anyway.

 

[Bon Plan]

Not for so long,

why ?
I see China versus India as Russia versus Europe : no real interest to go to war.

 

[Bon Plan]

The rafale is good but it is by no means a rival or as capable as the su57 which is a next gen jet which smokes other 5th gen jets in most categories, India should have bought su57 when they had the chance.

It is so potent that Russia itself don't use it over Ukraine....
Maybe in 10 years, once it will be fine tune and serially produce.

Su57 is a kind of Armata : good looking but full of emptiness. A good aero show jet, as was Rafale A (ie without a mature weapon system).

I'm even not sure Su57 has an AESA radar... not to speak of GaN.

 

[Bon Plan]

114 Rafale will eat into future Mk2 numbers

They are not in the same league !
One is absolutely mature and with a strong road map when the other has not make its first flight.
One has a 9,5 tons load when the other will have a 5 tons one (more or less).
Same about range.

MK2 will probably be the heavier of the small jet but a small jet, when Rafale is a medium one.

Better comparing Tejas MK2 and Mirage 2000.

 

[Professor∆Baaz]

The typhoon had program issues but because of so many players we would have been able to get far more concessions on it than the rafale. Plus it would lead to some diplomatic leverage over all eurofighter countries. Although typhoon and rafale complement each other.
The rafale fits the mission set of the mirage and jaguar whereas the typhoon fits the mission set of the mig-29. So we should have bought both. But we can't do both because of our aversion to Anglo Saxon technology and also these deals will be used to force us to position ourselves against the Russians.
The typhoon has a superior radar and flight profile that is better positioned to take out j-10's, j-11, j-16's. Also access to American munitions and subsystem and ease of integration of weapons compared to rafale which faces the issues of exclusively using French weapons.
Although Rafales are being armed with new munitions. It's still limited. Still it has a larger variety of munitions than the j-10. It still is smaller than the typhoon. We need to copy American munitions like the jdam,Jsow, amraam, lrasm and integrate it on the rafale. The rafale has a very mature airframe and can carry far more combat load than the typhoon. But it's ground strike focussed while the plaaf and PAF are air superiority focused. Which also gives us a certain advantage as you can see after the 7th May dog fight and our swarm drone attacks on 8th May morning it was smooth sailing for the IAF. We basically were inside Pakistani airspace and the j-10's vanished. The f-16's and jf-17's failed to do A2G attacks. Keep in mind the plaaf doesn't really have a great A2G library. They have the ls3-/ls7 series bombs(jdam copies) but most of their ground attack is limited to surface to surface mlrs/cruise missiles/ballistic missiles. The Pakistanis in fact have access to jdam's, H2,H4 sows(denel raptor), ls series then ra'ad alcm. The plaaf weapons are majorly based on Soviet A2G munitions are dependent on using the h-6k bombers. So the Pakistanis actually have a better library of A2G munitions.
We have far more options for A2G munitions. We are behind in BVR's. They have amraams, pl-15 and pl-17 and upcoming pl-21. So upto 500km of serial coverage. We are limited to 200-300km with meteor being our best missiles.

Nah it can defeat the j-20. But for it we need e-7

The su-57 is only good if we can get hands on the r-37m and k-77ME

The f-35 and su-57 are in the pipeline that's for sure.

The typhoon had program issues but because of so many players we would have been able to get far more concessions on it than the rafale. Plus it would lead to some diplomatic leverage over all eurofighter countries. Although typhoon and rafale complement each other.
The rafale fits the mission set of the mirage and jaguar whereas the typhoon fits the mission set of the mig-29. So we should have bought both. But we can't do both because of our aversion to Anglo Saxon technology and also these deals will be used to force us to position ourselves against the Russians.
The typhoon has a superior radar and flight profile that is better positioned to take out j-10's, j-11, j-16's. Also access to American munitions and subsystem and ease of integration of weapons compared to rafale which faces the issues of exclusively using French weapons.
Although Rafales are being armed with new munitions. It's still limited. Still it has a larger variety of munitions than the j-10. It still is smaller than the typhoon. We need to copy American munitions like the jdam,Jsow, amraam, lrasm and integrate it on the rafale. The rafale has a very mature airframe and can carry far more combat load than the typhoon. But it's ground strike focussed while the plaaf and PAF are air superiority focused. Which also gives us a certain advantage as you can see after the 7th May dog fight and our swarm drone attacks on 8th May morning it was smooth sailing for the IAF. We basically were inside Pakistani airspace and the j-10's vanished. The f-16's and jf-17's failed to do A2G attacks. Keep in mind the plaaf doesn't really have a great A2G library. They have the ls3-/ls7 series bombs(jdam copies) but most of their ground attack is limited to surface to surface mlrs/cruise missiles/ballistic missiles. The Pakistanis in fact have access to jdam's, H2,H4 sows(denel raptor), ls series then ra'ad alcm. The plaaf weapons are majorly based on Soviet A2G munitions are dependent on using the h-6k bombers. So the Pakistanis actually have a better library of A2G munitions.
We have far more options for A2G munitions. We are behind in BVR's. They have amraams, pl-15 and pl-17 and upcoming pl-21. So upto 500km of serial coverage. We are limited to 200-300km with meteor being our best missiles.

Nah it can defeat the j-20. But for it we need e-7

The su-57 is only good if we can get hands on the r-37m and k-77ME

The f-35 and su-57 are in the pipeline that's for sure.

F-35 is not coming that's sure....what's the role of F-35 in IAF doctrine ?... Trusting USA for a frontline jet really ?

About Su-57 , can't say but there is possibility of reviving FGFA programme.

 

[Professor∆Baaz]

It is so potent that Russia itself don't use it over Ukraine....
Maybe in 10 years, once it will be fine tune and serially produce.

Su57 is a kind of Armata : good looking but full of emptiness. A good aero show jet, as was Rafale A (ie without a mature weapon system).

I'm even not sure Su57 has an AESA radar... not to speak of GaN.

How capable is rafale against J-35 ? Can you explain it technically. Because that's the jet rafale gonna face in the near future.

 

[Hydra]

why ?
I see China versus India as Russia versus Europe : no real interest to go to war.

I am not talking about war fighting intention, talking about lack of deterence.

Their fourth generation aircraft inventory alone more than 1000. Fifth generation aircraft inventory is more than our MKI inventory. And cherry on top,thir upcoming sixth generation aircrafts. They are vastly superior now and our deternce is long gone.

 

[Speedster1]

2 billion over 15 years is not that bad if we account for indias growth but stil its a huge amount. the last budget had like 6 bil for new airforce expenses iirc.

The IAF has other committed liabilities like Batch 1 Rafale F3R which will stretch its budget.

In addition, it is not clear at the moment whether ISE costs (namely Spectra suite modification to F4* std) are included in the total cost projection for 144 jets. If you recall, the previous batch cost us an extra $1.4b for ISE mods.

You can almost guarantee that the F4 will be priced higher than older version F3R + license production costs.

Also isnt the defence budget expected to get a significant increase this year? if we push to 100 billion then we would have a okayish budget to deal with this along with accounting for growth. The EU trade deal might actually accelerate a lot of things for us.

Under the 8th Pay Commission, the salary and pension bill of the IAF is set to rise from this year onwards. There may not be a 'real' increase in the defence budget, as they say.

GoI has started allocating a lumpsum for the capex of the 3 services lately so we may never know whether there has been an increase in capital outlay.

With this buying the su57 or an MKI version would be possible without too much resistance from EU and possibly even the US although with trump in charge you just dont know.

From the recent stmts of the Polish FM and the German Chancellor who were in India recently, it is clear that we are being pressurized to stop/reduce defence purchases or in their words 'funding the Russian war machine'.

They seem to be seeking assurances on no further Russia mil purchases from GoI. In particular, Trump will likely not grant India any more CAATSA exceptions given the current state of relations. GoI will need to tread carefully.

 

[redpanda]

The 114 Rafales will result in an annual capex outflow of ~$2bn over 15 yrs. Unless the IAF gets a bigger budget, this prog will leave little room for another major fighter acquisition atleast for the foreseeable future.

Just for context, after the licensed production contract for MKI was signed in 2001, the IAF got the Rafale only in 2016.

Su-57MKI will cannibalize AMCA orders just like 114 Rafale will eat into future Mk2 numbers.

That is assuming the CapEx remains flat. But it is growing YoY at a modest rate. So I don't see that much impact of this deal on Mk2's numbers..If our economy keeps growing, natural defence budget will too.

 

[Speedster1]

They are not in the same league !
One is absolutely mature and with a strong road map when the other has not make its first flight.
One has a 9,5 tons load when the other will have a 5 tons one (more or less).
Same about range.

MK2 will probably be the heavier of the small jet but a small jet, when Rafale is a medium one.

Better comparing Tejas MK2 and Mirage 2000.

MK2 is equivalent in every way to the Gripen-E/F, a credible competitor to the Rafale. In any case, both (will) have a wider range of A2G munitions than the Rafale.

To be clear, Mk2s development delays had nothing to do with tech maturity but funding delays. It can do 80% of the Rafale's missions at a lower cost, being a single engine fighter.

If the IAFs sqn numbers hadn't been so low, GoI would've probably scrapped the Rafale acquisition for Mk2. The uncertainty over US supplies of F404/F414 is another risk factor that likely forced the GoI to act.

 

[RationalGuy]

Rafale vs J-35 is not that far, if the photo is right then we can definitely see rafale going against J-35 this year itself,

Photo?

 

[Saaho]

F-35 is not coming that's sure....what's the role of F-35 in IAF doctrine ?... Trusting USA for a frontline jet really ?

Absolutely. There is no F-35 for IAF. Rafale is our F-35 for now atleast. Lets see how it goes.

 

[Lolwa]

F-35 is not coming that's sure....what's the role of F-35 in IAF doctrine ?... Trusting USA for a frontline jet really ?

About Su-57 , can't say but there is possibility of reviving FGFA programme.

Honestly the f-35 fits the same role as the rafale. That is Deep strike interdiction and electronic warfare. It wouldn't be used as an air superiority fighter. That's why I was shilling for the f-15EX and f-35 combo to make the Amreekis happy. But to actually employ the f-35 in any significant measure we need to get Patriots paac-4, f-15EX, f-16 blk70, E-3/E-7's to actually employ the f-35 to its maximum potential. We have already wasted a lot of time and money getting the Rafales at this point. We need to just get su-57 licens eproduction and start working on fifth and sixth gen air warfare and focus on developing the Tejas mk1a,mk1b, MW2 and mk2a. Need license production of ge-404 and ge-414 because Kaveri is stillborn for the foreseeable future.