MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 44 16.4%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 205 76.5%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 5 1.9%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 5 1.9%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 10 3.7%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 11 4.1%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 2 0.7%

  • Total voters
    268
  • Poll closed .
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Guess who is in no mood to sign off deals to buy jets and prefers to dither?
No one will ever question motive behind the decisions made by the decision makers. This joomla is now habitual due to continuity in the political leadership of the country and an elected Govt staying in power for 15 years so far without any major change.

So for all of those who just come here & post in pessimistic tone, none of you or me are going to fight the air wars and no matter how much questions you or me ask it will always fall into deaf ears and get ignored. The powers that be feel very confident with what is available, see very little need to progress major programs esp those needing large forex outflow and moreover feel there is very little threat coming from any major power (read China). So just get on with it while it persists.
 
Guess who is in no mood to sign off deals to buy jets and prefers to dither?
No one will ever question motive behind the decisions made by the decision makers. This joomla is now habitual due to continuity in the political leadership of the country and an elected Govt staying in power for 15 years so far without any major change.

So for all of those who just come here & post in pessimistic tone, none of you or me are going to fight the air wars and no matter how much questions you or me ask it will always fall into deaf ears and get ignored. The powers that be feel very confident with what is available, see very little need to progress major programs esp those needing large forex outflow and moreover feel there is very little threat coming from any major power (read China). So just get on with it while it persists.

Marich bro, tbh there will be hoopla and criticism, some political oppurtunism.. no matter what decision the ministry takes in this particular matter.

Rafale has become a sore who issue for opposition since 2016/2019. If you've got any doubts, just see other thread currently
 
Marich bro, tbh there will be hoopla and criticism, some political oppurtunism.. no matter what decision the ministry takes in this particular matter.

Rafale has become a sore who issue for opposition since 2016/2019. If you've got any doubts, just see other thread currently
Issue is IAF get the blame for falling sqn numbers. No one , not the opposition blames sitting Govt that much for this because they know once they are in power the dirt will come onto them. Those 12 Su30 deal took a long time to materialise.
 
Let's see how Dassault reacts to this. Do you guys think they will make more of their supply chain here?
It could be part and parcel of the negotiations with the GoI (babus at play). Angling for something new or a favourable outcome. If the order for the currently allocated FA goes through, then yes. They will try to bring in a fair bit of their things over. This would be an optimistic take of things and also pragmatic considering order size.

The waters are muddy. Let's see how things turn out. Same things are in motion Panda; wahi Babu, wahi MEA, goremint, IAF, and the ever struggling domestic industry. See you in the trenches, bruv.
 
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No point buying them unless we get ToT for M88 engines as well, with at least 175 in service across IAF and IN (and likely to increase a lot more), the total requirement for engines across it's lifecycle would easily exceed 500. Otherwise we'll be importing used Rafales from other countries to cannibalise for spares like we've been doing.
 
Guess who is in no mood to sign off deals to buy jets and prefers to dither?
No one will ever question motive behind the decisions made by the decision makers. This joomla is now habitual due to continuity in the political leadership of the country and an elected Govt staying in power for 15 years so far without any major change.

So for all of those who just come here & post in pessimistic tone, none of you or me are going to fight the air wars and no matter how much questions you or me ask it will always fall into deaf ears and get ignored. The powers that be feel very confident with what is available, see very little need to progress major programs esp those needing large forex outflow and moreover feel there is very little threat coming from any major power (read China). So just get on with it while it persists.
To be honest, I mostly agree with you. However, there’s some merit to the argument that we shouldn’t rush into finalizing the deal without thorough negotiations. We’ve seen how that approach can backfire, given the complications we faced in past dealings with the French. The original Rafale deal, which was expedited due to the geopolitical circumstances of that time, serves as a good example of why careful negotiation is crucial. Now the alternative pov of this would be that our approach to negotiation isn't that great and it leads to another kind of sh*tshow which is also valid.
 
Issue is IAF get the blame for falling sqn numbers. No one , not the opposition blames sitting Govt that much for this because they know once they are in power the dirt will come onto them. Those 12 Su30 deal took a long time to materialise.

Who here isn't aware of the reality our forces are gripped with.
But for a person who is vouching to scrap FA imports which cuts into AMCA funding ( which will definitely go above 15k Cr sanctioned currently), I am waiting if this paise transfers into some real gain for domestic industry or just another defense deal being used for other negotiation. (SAFRAN Collab for indigenous engine, announced but not finalised yet 👀) .

Then there's European sanctions, Trump being a spoilsport for both EU and India. There's no doubt french will also be leveraging this deal in exchange for lobbying in EU , NATO group against US diktat.

This is what happens when domestic military-industry ( including R&D) complex was intentionally kept crippled for 50+ years. Basically "morals" of B.A ( liberal art+ Marxism+ socialism+ idealism) kichdi applied to science turned out to be another case study on what not to do.( No govt is innocent, don't see it as a political comment but an observation)

Back from that, you're looking at a 20+ billion dollar deal, jokes on us to expect babus to not milk the 20B tag for some gains. What kind of gains (personal or national) will there be is to be seen.

On that note, personally I am of the opinion to crunch DPSUs by not going for massive imports, and leaving them less complacent. Don't give them reasons ( not enough orders, not funding, domestic industry support etc) they usually put out as cover for their lacksidal attitude. Case in point, HAL: Looking at their recent PR management, they definitely under pressure from insiders.

If OPS 1.0 isnt enuf of a reality check for the babus [There's been an uptick in visible tests and announcement of prototypes, AoN for indigenous systems.. but let's see how long can the facade last without results for forces], then OPS 2.0 be the Black swan event for
'New India'.

May Vishnu and his Sudharshana chakra save us from enemy outside and inside. Happy cracker full Diwali 🎇🪔
 
Let's see how Dassault reacts to this. Do you guys think they will make more of their supply chain here?
10 to 15% of indian content is a prank.
Goal is somewhere between 50 to 80%.
No point buying them unless we get ToT for M88 engines as well, with at least 175 in service across IAF and IN (and likely to increase a lot more), the total requirement for engines across it's lifecycle would easily exceed 500. Otherwise we'll be importing used Rafales from other countries to cannibalise for spares like we've been doing.
Why not.... full ToT is to be seen.... But next gen engine will be developped by SAFRAN and indian partners for AMCA (and SCAF ?)
 
Back to zero again.
An indian specialty.
But it's not very important, as they have the desired number of squads..... :sneaky:
Looks like the Indian govt saw 30billion dollar bill for 114 Rafale with both F4 and F5 coming and thought hang on that's double what we can realistically afford
Let me see what Su57 costs instead
The famous Su57 the russian don't want to use over Ukraine..... OK.
 
An indian specialty.
But it's not very important, as they have the desired number of squads..... :sneaky:
More Rafales will come for India but the numbers would depend on how much Indian content Dassault is willing to put along with how much source-code of Rafale they're willing to share with us.
The famous Su57 the russian don't want to use over Ukraine..... OK.
Because it's still a WIP and because Su-35S, Su-30SM & Su-34 along with Mig-31 are doing their job properly.
 
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Guess who is in no mood to sign off deals to buy jets and prefers to dither?
No one will ever question motive behind the decisions made by the decision makers. This joomla is now habitual due to continuity in the political leadership of the country and an elected Govt staying in power for 15 years so far without any major change.

So for all of those who just come here & post in pessimistic tone, none of you or me are going to fight the air wars and no matter how much questions you or me ask it will always fall into deaf ears and get ignored. The powers that be feel very confident with what is available, see very little need to progress major programs esp those needing large forex outflow and moreover feel there is very little threat coming from any major power (read China). So just get on with it while it persists.
After Bofors scandle, both CONgress and Blow Job Party are scared to undertake any massive deal lest they be accused of corruption or their corruption comes to light and makes their government fall down. Bofors scandle was perhaps the worst thing ever to happen to Indian defence.

Well let's hope Astra Mk2, Gandiva, Kusha, and Netra AWACS come online in some way or form in the next few years. In the end even if we get 1000 Rafales if they are not networked with our AWACS, ground radars and missile systems then perhaps the utility of the jet is not worth it especially if we're buying them straight out of the floor from some French factory. If the government doesn't want to spend forex on foren then at least spend that money and effort on indigenous programs!!! Tejas Mk2 and AMCA took years to just gain approval and funds.
 
More Rafales will come for India but the numbers would depend on how much Indian content Dassault is willing to put along with how much source-code of Rafale they're willing to share with us.
As per the reports that came out, the govt. wants a minimum of 50 percent of the content sourced from India. No surprise, delays will follow. The GaN radar aspect seems to catching steam as well. Let's see how the babus end up playing this one out.
 
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It seems the French are aware India will not buy 114 Rafales

A worrying technological gap in a high-intensity environment​


The RBE2-AESA GaN radar, intended for the F4.2 and F5 evolutions of the Rafale, offers significant advantages over the current GaAs version. Using gallium nitride transistors, it doubles the power emitted in equal dimensions, while increasing the density of pulses per surface. This improvement results in an estimated gain of effective range of 20-30%, an increased ability to treat several simultaneous tracks, and better immunity to blurging and active decoys.


By comparison, the Chinese J-20 would now be equipped, according to several Western sources, with an AESA radar based on the Type 1475 radar in GaN, with a range greater than 300 kilometers, capable of tracking about twenty targets simultaneously. At this stage, the Indian Rafale can effectively engage an aircraft such as the J-20 in an optimized environment (acler cooperation, pre-identification, etc.). In BVR (Beyond Visual Range) fought, the advantage is clearly in Beijing’s favor.


The J-20 also features advanced on-board electronic warfare systems, offset jamming pods, and optimised frontal stealth. The superiority of the Rafale, hitherto ensured by manoeuvrability, the Meteor missiles and the SPECTRA suite, became partial without a radar capable of fully exploiting the long-range environment.


Testing of the RBE2-GaN, however, started as early as 2014. But Thales, faced with industrial limits, prioritized the modernization of French appliances, and did not deliver a GaN module operational to export until 2024. This choice, dictated by production rates, certification requirements, and budgetary constraints, has penalised India despite its initial investment in the Rafale programme to the tune of EUR 7.8 billion.


An industrial dependence that undermines India’s air sovereignty​


This delay illustrates the limitations of a turnkey purchasing model, where critical systems remain under the control of home suppliers. India, which was demanding further technology transfer, failed to obtain the rights to manufacture or integrate the GaN radar. The contract signed in 2016 provides for the delivery of Rafale in an F3R version, without binding commitment to future modernizations.


This generates a strategic dependence on French industrial calendars. The Indian Rafale programme does not have a local retrofit line, and upgrades are to pass through Mérignac and Limours, where Thales assembles radar modules. This logistics pattern slows down maintenance cycles and prevents rapid upturn, as required by tensions with China or Pakistan.


The local alternative via Bharat Electronics Ltd. or DRDO is not yet mature in the AESA-GaN segment. India has invested in the Uttam AESA radar for the Tejas Mk2, but it does not yet reach the performance thresholds for Rafale-class fighter aircraft. The French delay therefore has a full impact on India’s airspace control strategy.


Faced with this situation, voices are being raised in the IAF command to redirect certain future commands to platforms with native GaN radars. The Su-57, proposed by Russia with a N036 Byelka radar, or the American F-15EX, are mentioned as alternatives to complement, although no agreement has been formalized at this stage.

Crisis management that is difficult for French industrialists​


On the French side, the situation is followed with caution. Dassault Aviation, which pilots the Rafale platform, remains dependent on Thales for radar equipment. The latter, engaged in the Rafale F5 programme, has already delivered the first GaN modules for French aircraft, but the export extension remains marginal. By 2025, only 4 to 6 GaN radars would have been delivered outside France, all intended for test programmes or pilot units.


The problem is therefore both industrial and political. The production capacity of GaN transistors in Europe remains limited. The only certified manufacturing line for the military aeronautical field is located in Limoges. It can only produce a few dozen modules per year, far short of the global backfit needs of the Rafale fleet.


India’s pressure highlights a strategic friction point: the gap between modernization announcements and the ability to deliver them. For New Delhi, this delay is more than a technical incident. It calls into question the confidence in the technological promise of the Rafale as a fighter aircraft of regional superiority.


The French Ministry of the Armed Forces has not officially commented on the situation, but discussions would take place behind the scenes to propose an acceleration plan. This would include the provision of GaN radars from the end of 2026, with first operational integrations in 2027. This is a delay that is considered too late by part of the Indian General Staff, which anticipates a peak in Sino-Indian tension in the next two to three years.
 
After Bofors scandle, both CONgress and Blow Job Party are scared to undertake any massive deal lest they be accused of corruption or their corruption comes to light and makes their government fall down. Bofors scandle was perhaps the worst thing ever to happen to Indian defence.

Well let's hope Astra Mk2, Gandiva, Kusha, and Netra AWACS come online in some way or form in the next few years. In the end even if we get 1000 Rafales if they are not networked with our AWACS, ground radars and missile systems then perhaps the utility of the jet is not worth it especially if we're buying them straight out of the floor from some French factory. If the government doesn't want to spend forex on foren then at least spend that money and effort on indigenous programs!!! Tejas Mk2 and AMCA took years to just gain approval and funds.
 
It seems the French are aware India will not buy 114 Rafales

A worrying technological gap in a high-intensity environment​


The RBE2-AESA GaN radar, intended for the F4.2 and F5 evolutions of the Rafale, offers significant advantages over the current GaAs version. Using gallium nitride transistors, it doubles the power emitted in equal dimensions, while increasing the density of pulses per surface. This improvement results in an estimated gain of effective range of 20-30%, an increased ability to treat several simultaneous tracks, and better immunity to blurging and active decoys.


By comparison, the Chinese J-20 would now be equipped, according to several Western sources, with an AESA radar based on the Type 1475 radar in GaN, with a range greater than 300 kilometers, capable of tracking about twenty targets simultaneously. At this stage, the Indian Rafale can effectively engage an aircraft such as the J-20 in an optimized environment (acler cooperation, pre-identification, etc.). In BVR (Beyond Visual Range) fought, the advantage is clearly in Beijing’s favor.


The J-20 also features advanced on-board electronic warfare systems, offset jamming pods, and optimised frontal stealth. The superiority of the Rafale, hitherto ensured by manoeuvrability, the Meteor missiles and the SPECTRA suite, became partial without a radar capable of fully exploiting the long-range environment.


Testing of the RBE2-GaN, however, started as early as 2014. But Thales, faced with industrial limits, prioritized the modernization of French appliances, and did not deliver a GaN module operational to export until 2024. This choice, dictated by production rates, certification requirements, and budgetary constraints, has penalised India despite its initial investment in the Rafale programme to the tune of EUR 7.8 billion.


An industrial dependence that undermines India’s air sovereignty​


This delay illustrates the limitations of a turnkey purchasing model, where critical systems remain under the control of home suppliers. India, which was demanding further technology transfer, failed to obtain the rights to manufacture or integrate the GaN radar. The contract signed in 2016 provides for the delivery of Rafale in an F3R version, without binding commitment to future modernizations.


This generates a strategic dependence on French industrial calendars. The Indian Rafale programme does not have a local retrofit line, and upgrades are to pass through Mérignac and Limours, where Thales assembles radar modules. This logistics pattern slows down maintenance cycles and prevents rapid upturn, as required by tensions with China or Pakistan.


The local alternative via Bharat Electronics Ltd. or DRDO is not yet mature in the AESA-GaN segment. India has invested in the Uttam AESA radar for the Tejas Mk2, but it does not yet reach the performance thresholds for Rafale-class fighter aircraft. The French delay therefore has a full impact on India’s airspace control strategy.


Faced with this situation, voices are being raised in the IAF command to redirect certain future commands to platforms with native GaN radars. The Su-57, proposed by Russia with a N036 Byelka radar, or the American F-15EX, are mentioned as alternatives to complement, although no agreement has been formalized at this stage.

Crisis management that is difficult for French industrialists​


On the French side, the situation is followed with caution. Dassault Aviation, which pilots the Rafale platform, remains dependent on Thales for radar equipment. The latter, engaged in the Rafale F5 programme, has already delivered the first GaN modules for French aircraft, but the export extension remains marginal. By 2025, only 4 to 6 GaN radars would have been delivered outside France, all intended for test programmes or pilot units.


The problem is therefore both industrial and political. The production capacity of GaN transistors in Europe remains limited. The only certified manufacturing line for the military aeronautical field is located in Limoges. It can only produce a few dozen modules per year, far short of the global backfit needs of the Rafale fleet.


India’s pressure highlights a strategic friction point: the gap between modernization announcements and the ability to deliver them. For New Delhi, this delay is more than a technical incident. It calls into question the confidence in the technological promise of the Rafale as a fighter aircraft of regional superiority.


The French Ministry of the Armed Forces has not officially commented on the situation, but discussions would take place behind the scenes to propose an acceleration plan. This would include the provision of GaN radars from the end of 2026, with first operational integrations in 2027. This is a delay that is considered too late by part of the Indian General Staff, which anticipates a peak in Sino-Indian tension in the next two to three years.
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I wasn't aware of that. Few months ago there was a lot of discussion about this article on twitter. With at least one prominent defence twitter account posting this link