MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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We will be pushed into a corner where we ll be for forced to say Any platform is better than No platform.
And then comes Engine JV which T +14 years program. We ll delay the T so much, indigenous options maybe born by the time we could complete 14 years.
At present it's only use is as fallback option incase F414 didn't go well.
Anyways to Sign engine deal with US / France..it s taking too long...
Some are tweeting we need to buy C130j to get th F414 deal.
Other than SAAB, no other mfgr had even talked about source codes all through the MMRCA process which dragged on for many years. If Sukhoi isn't transferring source codes for the ~25 year old MKI (which btw is still selling on the world market), it wouldn't be fair to expect DA to do so. The IAF would've known this from the start.
Plus we are pretty much locked in with the French now. The Turks managed to get RR assistance on their 5G TF engine prog only after they agreed to purchase EF2000s in a single source deal.
Otherwise, they'd have gone the tender route. (Remember their controversial SAM tender that led to the purchase of S400 and the shit storm it created. )
We may have to settle for ICDs for now or integrate a 2nd MC to simplify weapon integration as we've done on the M2000. In due course, F4 std birds can be upgraded to F5 which will reportedly feature an open-ended interface for third party weapons.
Besides Safran has already consulted on the Kaveri prog, co-developed the Ardiden/Shakti and now the Aneto/Aravalli helo engines with DRDO and HAL respectively. There is a certain comfort level we have with them that doesn't exist with RR.
Plus we are pretty much locked in with the French now. The Turks managed to get RR assistance on their 5G TF engine prog only after they agreed to purchase EF2000s in a single source deal.
Otherwise, they'd have gone the tender route. (Remember their controversial SAM tender that led to the purchase of S400 and the shit storm it created. )
We may have to settle for ICDs for now or integrate a 2nd MC to simplify weapon integration as we've done on the M2000. In due course, F4 std birds can be upgraded to F5 which will reportedly feature an open-ended interface for third party weapons.
Besides Safran has already consulted on the Kaveri prog, co-developed the Ardiden/Shakti and now the Aneto/Aravalli helo engines with DRDO and HAL respectively. There is a certain comfort level we have with them that doesn't exist with RR.
There's no relevance between MMRCA/MRFA requierment and the 120 kN engine. One is 30 years old, came up at the same time as MKI, the other is 10 years old, planned for a new AMCA design that will replace FGFA. The old 90 kN engine with France was also independent of TEF, it was for the SEF requirement. It was just a way for the French to wriggle into both programs while cutting out India's indigenous engine program. The French getting into the third 120 kN program was just a happy coincidence. The Americans got the SEF engine. None of these had any bearing on MRFA.
For more than a decade, I have repeatedly said that the IAF will not allow indigenous programs to proceed without guarantees on Rafale first. Even AMCA's CDR was delayed with the express need to guarantee Rafale. To ensure MRFA survives, they gave the go-ahead to Mk1A and Mk2 replaced the SEF requirement, which was originally Gripen vs F-16. IAF got Rafales approved, and then they gave approval for AMCA, this way DRDO cannot veto MRFA imports. This is how both are getting what they wanted. The powers that be wouldn't have let MRFA go through had the IAF not held AMCA hostage as the indigenous programs are given higher priority.
Now the SCAF/GCAP JV's gonna light a fire under DRDO's butts for faster development of AMCA. More so to prevent DRDO from hijacking AMCA like they did LCA, by constantly trying to push boundaries rather than work towards meeting the IAF's primary objectives. Plus ADA won't get a 6th gen or higher program without completing AMCA's flight testing first. So this JV works as a direct competitor to ADA.
This sort of tug of war will continue until ADA gets proper domestic competitors like Americans, Russians, and Chinese have within their own ecosystems. France's programs are limited by budget so they have to stick to national goals versus ADA being supported by a blank check.
For more than a decade, I have repeatedly said that the IAF will not allow indigenous programs to proceed without guarantees on Rafale first. Even AMCA's CDR was delayed with the express need to guarantee Rafale. To ensure MRFA survives, they gave the go-ahead to Mk1A and Mk2 replaced the SEF requirement, which was originally Gripen vs F-16. IAF got Rafales approved, and then they gave approval for AMCA, this way DRDO cannot veto MRFA imports. This is how both are getting what they wanted. The powers that be wouldn't have let MRFA go through had the IAF not held AMCA hostage as the indigenous programs are given higher priority.
Now the SCAF/GCAP JV's gonna light a fire under DRDO's butts for faster development of AMCA. More so to prevent DRDO from hijacking AMCA like they did LCA, by constantly trying to push boundaries rather than work towards meeting the IAF's primary objectives. Plus ADA won't get a 6th gen or higher program without completing AMCA's flight testing first. So this JV works as a direct competitor to ADA.
This sort of tug of war will continue until ADA gets proper domestic competitors like Americans, Russians, and Chinese have within their own ecosystems. France's programs are limited by budget so they have to stick to national goals versus ADA being supported by a blank check.
Earlier we did not have sufficient programs to share amongst multiple companies, now we do. It's a recent change.
Tata got the C-295, Mahindra is likely to get C-390. HAL and a private sector company will build helicopters. Similarly, LCA under HAL, Rafale and AMCA under two different private sector companies. TEDBF could bring a third one in. It's always been about number of programs and the scale of each.
Modi wants PSUs gone in general. "Government has no business to be in business," is what he said.
F414 will be signed in 1 or 2 months along with P-8I. The trade talks and Iran war have delayed things a bit. Any C-130 purchase is independent of this. And no, there's no compulsion to buy anything else to push F414 production forward. The reason being the engine is at end of life for GE, and it's in America's interest to keep the production going elsewhere, even if it's in India. They are gonna retain the F404 production for Red Hawk while the Indian line can easily help keep costs low for the USN's Super Hornets apart from supporting the wider export market like Gripen and KF-21.
AMCA engine is awaiting CCS approval. It will be signed soon too. I'm guessing it will be done as soon as MoD releases the MRFA RFP and nominates Dassault.
That was their only play left to beat the LCA program back then. I'm glad we didn't fall for Saab's offer to sideline LCA or Snecma's offer to sideline Kaveri.
It was a part of SAABs sales pitch to Brazil as well, perhaps even Thailand. For us, Gripen would've been a no-go anyway because Sweden is a small player on the geopolitical stage, unlike P5 UNSC member, France.
Also the definitive Gripen E model wasn't flying in the 2009-11 time frame. It would've won SEF vs Viper B70 a few yrs later but Parrikar's intervention saved the day.
I was referring to the source code requirement. Mmrca tender didn't explicitly ask for source code and neither did it come up for discussion when the 2016 Rafale contract was signed.
Heck the IAF probably wouldn't have got any bids if it'd made source code a precondition for Mmrca/MRFA.
But to your point, I suspect any RR proposal for a 120kN TF would have to be based on the proven EJ200 tech base. That would bring the Typhoon into the picture one way or another.
Our lethal combination of delayed funding and IAF stubbornness could stop the most talented R&D and project mgmt teams dead in their tracks. DRDO and HAL officials are probably used to taking the fall for the incompetence of babudom/mil brass. But it's not all their fault.
Their offers were with Italian sensors, so no ToT. But our offer was with Swedish sensors with ToT.
Politics is irrelevant to the Gripen vs F-16 competition. The same with MRFA. The decisions were purely technical in nature.
Parrikar had nothing to do with this. He just happened to be the RM at the time.
His actions and comments have been taken out of context for some reason. And he quit the job 'cause he realized he didn't have much power. In fact he placed so many hurdles towards modernization that he was effectively sidelined after a point. A lot of the reforms that happened during the time was led by the PMO, Parrikar was just a figurehead for the most part. His frustration at being sidelined and his unnecessary public comments led to the Rafale fiasco.
Ever since Rajnath Singh took over, it's been smooth sailing.
MK1A is also incorrectly credited to him, it was primarily an IAF decision. He just happened to be around. And Mk2 was essentially a side deal between IAF and DRDO to push MRFA forward while DRDO kicks out the foreign competition. That's how they managed to get the F414 and Kaveri in their favor. Kaveri restarted again at that point with Safran's consultancy and that's how we got both KDE and Ghatak programs.
Parrikar was directly involved in decision making at MoD, unlike RS who is just a rubber stamp. Smooth sailing indeed. Parrikar helped the pvt sector get a footing in the defence sector. His biggest USP was that he came from an engineering background and had the tech acumen needed for the job.
Otoh, RS comes across as blissfully uninformed in the few TV interviews he's given till date.
Unfortunately no. Background in engineering doesn't help in politics. RM is a political position. It would have helped more if he had some kinda military studies degree.
And he did not spearhead privatization. That was being done via the wider Make in India program launched by Modi before Parrikar became RM. It was about creating new industries through the private sector. And HAL participated in this Modi-led campaign for Mk1A and all other future programs. This is another example of giving credit to the wrong person. In fact, while he did as told, he was still hesitant to bring in the private sector fully. His goal was to create private subcontractors while DPSUs still ran the main programs. He also prevented the private sector from competing with OFB. His strategic partnership model also failed.
Parrikar boosted the naval programs because that was the decision made at the top, and this came at a significant cost to both the IAF and IA, both got left behind by Parrikar. While not entirely his fault, the central govt was busy trying to save the economy at the time, and all this happened during demonetization and GST, but his era did not see much movement in terms of modernization. So nothing significant happened under him, while all he did was give ammo for the opposition to attack.
Under RS, pretty much all objectives MoD needed to achieve were achieved successfully. For example, full capital budget utilization, massive exports, record DPSU growth, new execution model for procurement, positive indigenization lists... Pretty much everything good happening under MoD is led by him. He's actually the one implementing the policies. He was also the one to break up OFB's monopoly.
Parrikar was definitely an upgrade over Saint Anthony, even Jaitley, but he was quite average at the job. The one good thing worthy of credit is he decided to get out of the way of DPSUs in how they spent their own funds for expansion and diversification. But RS had to pretty much overhaul everything after Parrikar.
Exactly my point. And you know more about this stuff than i do anyway. I am stating what I believe to be a necessity.
Without Parrikar, the Mk1A would have been stillborn. The IAF had made up its mind to jump directly to the MK2. In fact, the IAF wasn't even willing to take the long-delayed FOC model Mk1s ordered earlier. We'd have been in dire straits if the IAF had gotten its way back then. While it is true that the 2016 Rafale deal was managed by the PMO, bypassing MoD,
Parrikar was directly involved in meetings with the pvt sector. He tried to take on the powerful babudom at MoD to simplify procurement rules but didn't succeed. The IN was fresh from the loss of INS Sindhurakshak when Parrikar took over. The sub fleet was in dire need of funds even as defence allocations were going unspent. Parrikar helped fix some of those problems, iirc.
If RS were a technocrat, he'd know that developing and operationalizing a jet engine takes a lot longer than 5-7 yrs. Frankly, that was a foot-in-the-mouth moment for Shri RS will be remembered for long after he leaves office.
Not at all. The Mk1A became a reality after Israel offered the 2052. Before that, there was only Mk2, and Mk1 was considered a failure. This happened in Sept 2015, essentially, pre-FOC. And only in Dec 2015 was the entire flight envelope opened for exploitation, which they showed off in Bahrain in 2016.
Plus HAL offered to further reduce empty weight to the point it would become acceptable in terms of performance and IAF demanded easier maintenance and faster turnaround time (20 min to less than 14).
IAF chose Mk1A without any political direction. The Mk1A successfuly met most of what was required to replace the Mig-21.
What's Parrikar got to do with AESA radar, advanced EW, lowered empty weight, maintenance, and turnaround time?
Mk1A was developed based on the maintainability evaluation of the LCA Mk1 based on the IOC model that entered service in 2013. And when the SoP-2018 was prepared, it was based on the work carried out since 2013, ie, before Modi was even elected.
Yeah, based on directions from the top, he focused on the navy. Already mentioned that.
Whatchu talkin' 'bout? That's the goal of AMCA's engine.
The 5th gen engine is in fact a combined 5th-6th development, that's why it's advertised as 110-140 kN. What it means is the foundational technologies for 6th gen will be designed and built alongside AMCA's 5th gen engine. He's not referring to a clean-sheet design independent of AMCA.
AMCA engine will be ready for flight testing in 3 years after contract, and he expects the 6th gen version to be ready for flight testing in 5-7 years.
As far as I know, Mk1A and HTT 40 both currently stuck in the final steps with engine availability are because of Parrikar.
Parrikar made compulsory drdo pp presentation on monthly progress..
He hand held both DRDO and Forces.
He was against costly Rafale because he knew how much indigenous development could be done with such budget.
Without him our aerospace industry will be still in eternal catching up phase.
Mk1A supposed to be short answer..took so many delays.. Mk2 too .. just for the approval itself. I strongly believe we would have been 2-4 years ahead with programs if he is still alive.
Parrikar made compulsory drdo pp presentation on monthly progress..
He hand held both DRDO and Forces.
He was against costly Rafale because he knew how much indigenous development could be done with such budget.
Without him our aerospace industry will be still in eternal catching up phase.
Mk1A supposed to be short answer..took so many delays.. Mk2 too .. just for the approval itself. I strongly believe we would have been 2-4 years ahead with programs if he is still alive.
Only a fool would believe France is committed to the co development of a 120 KN TF for a price of ~8-10 billion USD which is just the project cost for the development of clean sheet design of a new TF.
Why & how do they stand to benefit from getting India to become a prospective competitor to their aerospace industry ?!
As far as France's approach is concerned all we've to do is look at the Shakti / SAFRAN Ardiden 1H1 TS saga . Here's the lowdown for how SAFRAN promised full ToT only to backtrack & eventually yield when the HTSE project gained traction & started showing remarkable progress .
By the time the development of the TS of the IMRH came up , SAFRAN was co operation personified immediately agreeing to a JV SAFHAL for the FULL Know How , Know Why for the Aravalli TS based on the SAFRAN Aneto IK .
The entire sordid saga of the development of the Mk-1 which thanks to MP's intervention evolved into the Mk-1a & Mk-2 , MMRCA tender & it's fallout followed by a phased resurrection is ample evidence to everything that's rotten in not only our procurement process but the amount of distrust between all the players be it the GoI , MoD , IAF , DPSUs like HAL , DRDO / ADA etc .
It the entire history of the last 4-5 decades of the various procurement processes were documented it'd make for very sad reading & a cautionary tale.
OTOH we're told that IAF deliberately delayed granting of CDR & OTOH we're also informed of a light being lit underneath ADA / DRDO's rears.
Moreover not one mention of the fact that the entire AMCA development was held up for 3+ years because the PMO in a brainwave wanted to award a 5th Gen FA mfg to the Pvt Sector but the entire process was held up coz no one from the Pvt Sector stepped forward.
It's only now after repeated consultations & assurances at the highest levels that we're seeing some movement on it with hopefully the project awarded before the end of the current FY.
Under the current circumstances be prepared to see HAL & ARDC be emaciated & later eviscerated aka cannibalised by the Pvt Sector . This will eventually be followed by the same treatment accorded to ADA.
This isn't creative destruction as some jokers think , it's the destruction of a national treasure - a Maha Ratna.
Instead of salvaging the organisation thru reforms ( wonder what happened to that BCG led structural reform study / audit it conducted & IIRC submitted to the government ) GoI in its wisdom has all but decided to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Why & how do they stand to benefit from getting India to become a prospective competitor to their aerospace industry ?!
As far as France's approach is concerned all we've to do is look at the Shakti / SAFRAN Ardiden 1H1 TS saga . Here's the lowdown for how SAFRAN promised full ToT only to backtrack & eventually yield when the HTSE project gained traction & started showing remarkable progress .
By the time the development of the TS of the IMRH came up , SAFRAN was co operation personified immediately agreeing to a JV SAFHAL for the FULL Know How , Know Why for the Aravalli TS based on the SAFRAN Aneto IK .
The entire sordid saga of the development of the Mk-1 which thanks to MP's intervention evolved into the Mk-1a & Mk-2 , MMRCA tender & it's fallout followed by a phased resurrection is ample evidence to everything that's rotten in not only our procurement process but the amount of distrust between all the players be it the GoI , MoD , IAF , DPSUs like HAL , DRDO / ADA etc .
It the entire history of the last 4-5 decades of the various procurement processes were documented it'd make for very sad reading & a cautionary tale.
OTOH we're told that IAF deliberately delayed granting of CDR & OTOH we're also informed of a light being lit underneath ADA / DRDO's rears.
Moreover not one mention of the fact that the entire AMCA development was held up for 3+ years because the PMO in a brainwave wanted to award a 5th Gen FA mfg to the Pvt Sector but the entire process was held up coz no one from the Pvt Sector stepped forward.
It's only now after repeated consultations & assurances at the highest levels that we're seeing some movement on it with hopefully the project awarded before the end of the current FY.
Under the current circumstances be prepared to see HAL & ARDC be emaciated & later eviscerated aka cannibalised by the Pvt Sector . This will eventually be followed by the same treatment accorded to ADA.
This isn't creative destruction as some jokers think , it's the destruction of a national treasure - a Maha Ratna.
Instead of salvaging the organisation thru reforms ( wonder what happened to that BCG led structural reform study / audit it conducted & IIRC submitted to the government ) GoI in its wisdom has all but decided to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The IAF agreed to buy 83 Mk1A at Parrikar's prodding. But as a bargain for ~200 SEF. 36 Rafale were never going to be enough.
The GoI initially agreed but later decided to scrap SEF altogether. The IAF responded by proposing a substantial upgrade (aka MWF) of the Mk2 design which until then had been envisaged as a modest Mk1 ++ with minimal design changes (1m airframe plug, wider air intake, more fuel and weapons, new radar, etc)
The IAF had reservations about HALs ability to deliver Mk1A on time. It didn't want a 'three legged Cheetah' as characterized by a serving ACM.
The 83 Mk1A order was a result of direct intervention by GoI.
The 120kN TF for AMCA alone is a 10 yr plus effort. Its why the IAF settled for the F414 powered Mk1 model. You're not getting a 6G VCE engine in 5-7 yrs.
All those were part of reforms carried out by PMO.
Parrikar did not have funding for MRFA, which is fine. But this did not come at the cost of indigenous programs, which were already funded at the time. Kaveri KDE was sanctioned by Modi via the independent GTG deal which sidelined Parrikar. Of course, he was involved in the offsets arrangement, but it wasn't his decision.
Parrikar had very little to do with aerospace development programs of the time. He was mainly involved with P-17A and Talwar class. A lot of big ticket deals like Russian SSN, T-90, S-400 etc were signed after Parrikar left.
Apart from that, he did the job of RM as per the procedures laid out. The weekly and monthly and quarterly reports were part of Modi's system of governance that all departments followed since 2014.
The Mk2 and AMCA approvals had nothing to do with RM's position either. These things are done internally by DRDO and IAF, MoD only acts as the intermediary. MoD largely keeps out of technical stuff. CCS does all the approvals.