MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 24 12.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 156 78.4%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 9 4.5%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    199

A Person

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
794
777
A Place
India eying Boeing's Super Hornet in latest twist to air force...

NEW DELHI/SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Boeing Co, considered the frontrunner in the race to supply the Indian navy with new fighter jets, is now in contention for a much bigger $15 billion order after the government abruptly asked the air force to consider the twin-engine planes.​
Until recently, Lockheed Martin Corp’s F-16 and Saab AB’s Gripen were in a two-horse race supply at least 100 single-engine jets to build up the Indian Air Force’s fast-depleting combat fleet.​
Both had offered to build the planes in India in collaboration with local companies as part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s drive to build a domestic industrial base and cut back on arms imports.​
But last month the government asked the air force to open up the competition to twin-engine aircraft and to evaluate Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, a defense ministry source said. That jet is a finalist for the Indian navy’s $8 billion to $9 billion contract for 57 fighters.​
The defense ministry plans to within weeks issue a request for information (RFI), the first stage of a procurement process, for a fighter to be built in India. The competition will be open to both single and twin-engine jets, the official said, but both Lockheed and Saab said they had not been informed about the new requirements.​
The latest change of heart is a major opportunity for Boeing, whose only foreign Super Hornet customer so far is the Royal Australian Air Force.​
It also illustrates how dysfunctional the weapons procurement process and arms industry are in the world’s second-most-populous country. The need for new fighters has been known for nearly 15 years, but after many announcements, twists and turns, the country’s air force has only three-quarters of the aircraft it needs.​
An indigenous light combat aircraft, the Tejas, is still not operational, 35 years after it was first proposed.​
An Indian Air Force source said fighter procurement was urgent: the branch’s operational strength has fallen to just 33 squadrons, its weakest level in four decades, as it decommissions Soviet-era MiG-21s.​
“The IAF wants the RFI issued within weeks and get the process started,” said the source, who declined to be identified because he was not authorized to speak to the media. “The problem is that government keeps shifting what it wants.”
A PRESSING NEED
Over the next decade, 13 more squadrons will be retired as their aircraft age out of service, parliament’s standing committee on defense said in a December report.​
The defense ministry declined to comment on the air force’s aircraft modernization program, saying it was not in a position to do so.​
Lockheed, which had offered to shift its F-16 production line in Fort Worth, Texas, to India, said it had not been told of any change to the Indian plan for single-engine fighters.
“Our proposed F-16 partnership with India stands firm,” the company said in an email. Last year it picked Tata Advanced Systems as its local partner and said it was in talks with dozens of firms to build up the supplier network.​
“The Government of India has not yet issued formal requirements but we are continuing to support government-to-government discussions and engage with Indian companies about F-16 industrial opportunities,” Lockheed said.​
Sweden’s Saab was also caught off guard.​
“We have seen the reports in the Indian media, but no new formal communication has been made to us regarding the fighter program,” said Rob Hewson, Saab Asia Pacific’s head of communications.
France’s Dassault Systemes SE’s Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian aircraft are also potential contenders under the new requirements, the air force source and industry analysts said.​
Admiral Harry Harris, the head of U.S. Pacific Command, told the U.S. House Armed Services Committee last month that India was considering the stealthy F-35, among other options. But the Indian air force said no request had been made to Lockheed for even a briefing on the aircraft.
An order the size of India’s is rare. The only comparable opportunity for the Super Hornet is Canada’s request for 88 fighters, which could be worth as much as $14.6 billion.​
The Indian air force competition has echoes of a 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft, for which Dassault was selected for exclusive negotiations. But the talks quickly bogged down over local production and prices, and in the end, the government ordered just 36 Rafales in 2016 for $8.7 billion.​
LOCAL FIGHTER
The air force ideally would like a combination of lighter single-engine and twin-engine jets, as well as stealthy aircraft, but cannot afford such a range of foreign systems, analysts said.​
A twin-engine foreign fighter would perhaps offer the best value while the Tejas finishes development, they said.​
India’s annual defense capital procurement budget of $14 billion to $15 billion has to be spread over the army, navy, air force and the indigenous defense research organization.​
“The operational costs are going up with increased manpower, higher wages and general inflation. Ministry of Defence doesn’t have the luxury to go for too many platforms despite the rapidly falling squadron strength of the air force,” said Amber Dubey, partner and India head of aerospace and defense at global consultancy KPMG.​
Boeing India President Pratyush Kumar said the company was ready to respond to any request from the air force.​
“We will follow the MoD’s lead on their process and will be responsive to their needs if we are asked to provide any information,” he said.​
Kumar said Boeing was committed to building the planes in India and had offered to help with India’s plans to develop its own advanced medium combat aircraft.​
But the experience with the Rafale contract has made experts skeptical that the latest tender will proceed as planned.
Richard A. Bitzinger, visiting senior fellow at Singapore’s S.Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said he did not expect a resolution in even the next two to three years.​
“I am never surprised by what the Indians do when it comes to their procurement tenders. They are constantly changing the rules, changing their minds, and often even cancelling orders mid-way through,” he said.
“The Indians have a remarkable knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.”
Reporting by Sanjeev Miglani and Jamie Freed; Editing by Gerry Doyle

It's a circus, and everybody gets to be the clowns -- vendors and customers alike.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
5,885
11,418
New Delhi
And the forumers are the kids laughing :p
Few weeks back I had told you guys not to write off F-18SH for IN MRCBF reqts. I did not want to share more info at that time as it was not in open domain. I think I can now talk about it. Boeing and America are offering this aircraft minus any kind of restrictions if the numbers are large and above 150.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
5,885
11,418
New Delhi
Ah ah ah, it's a dinosaur compare to Rafale. :D:D
You don't even know what all is being offered by Americans if we go for F-18SH. They are very well aware of what France is offering as such kind of industrial espionage is common thing. And they are willing to take a step further than French. Plus they are the only people with varifiable data on STOBAR operations of F-18 C/D.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,501
7,981
India
Few weeks back I had told you guys not to write off F-18SH for IN MRCBF reqts. I did not want to share more info at that time as it was not in open domain. I think I can now talk about it. Boeing and America are offering this aircraft minus any kind of restrictions if the numbers are large and above 150.

Don't read too much into media articles. The navy could very well opt for the F-35B instead.
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
1,578
Seattle
You don't even know what all is being offered by Americans if we go for F-18SH. They are very well aware of what France is offering as such kind of industrial espionage is common thing. And they are willing to take a step further than French. Plus they are the only people with varifiable data on STOBAR operations of F-18 C/D.
Devil knows, America is too temperamental to be trusted with tools of Indian power projection. I don't like the idea of entire western fleet having zero air cover because some moron in Pentagon had a sudden love affair with liberal philosophy and human rights in Kashmir. Technical challenges can be iron out over time but a unreliable hostile partner is a different deal.
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
1,578
Seattle
This entire Make My Roosters Croak Again! ~Season 2~ drama makes me wonder if Pakistani were right about our capabilities, or lack thereof, to even buy a damn bird. I dedicate this song to our defense procurement!

 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,501
7,981
India
This entire Make My Roosters Croak Again! ~Season 2~ drama makes me wonder if Pakistani were right about our capabilities, or lack thereof, to even buy a damn bird. I dedicate this song to our defense procurement!


We have temporary financial issues. It won't last long. If we go back to 9% growth, we will go back to signing very large deals again.

A lot of money has been spent on the navy and the strategic forces over the last few years.
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
1,578
Seattle
We have temporary financial issues. It won't last long. If we go back to 9% growth, we will go back to signing very large deals again.

A lot of money has been spent on the navy and the strategic forces over the last few years.
Its not the money. It was never the money. Its just that IAF and babudom cannot decide what they want. Throw in Make in India and its even harder negotiation. I guess we should get the ToT which these countries are comfortable in giving for our order size and then reverse engineer the shit out of the planes.
 

smestarz

Well-Known member
Nov 30, 2017
538
323
Actung Panzers
NOW, this is starting of a Scam in Modi Era,
We already know how the game will unfold,
First the single engines will be taken out due to "reliability" issues,
Then the the rest will be as per earlier competion,
But this time its going to be interesting, when they come up with say 40 billion dollars for 126 planes made in India..

IAF to embark on a long shopping sortie for a jet


It’s back to square one for the force as the government has scrapped the MMRCA tender; evaluation and other processes will take at least 2 years

Almost two decades after it began a search for a fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force is back to square one. The IAF will begin the search again to arrest its falling squadron strength, as the Union government had scrapped the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender after ordering 36 Rafale fighters from France in flyaway condition.

“The Request for Information (RFI) for selecting a new fighter aircraft is expected to be issued before the DefExpo in April. It will be an open tender and not limited to single-engine aircraft,” a defence official told The Hindu.

Earlier, the IAF was looking for a single-engine jet to replace the MiG-21s and MiG-27s. The new jets were to be manufactured in India by the private industry under the Strategic Partnership model. However, the contest is now being opened up.





Contest renews
“The contest for single-engine jets has only two contenders and it would end up being a single-vendor situation on technical evaluation. So it has been decided to widen the contest to avoid issues later,” the official said.

While the Lockheed Martin F-16 and SAAB Gripen are single-engine fighters, the contest will be now open to Boeing F-18, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian MiG-35, all of which were part of the earlier MMRCA contest. The open tender will essentially be MMRCA all over again.

“The IAF has already evaluated all the aircraft in the MMRCA contest. So once the technical evaluation process starts, selection of one aircraft can be completed in two years. After that, it is the contract negotiations. Concluding the contract depends on how fast we can close it,” an IAF source said.

In 2000, the government decided to procure 126 fighter jets, but it was only in 2007 that the RFI, the first step in the long procurement process, was issued for 126 aircraft under the MMRCA deal expected to cost around $12 billion.

However, with contract negotiations reaching a deadlock, in 2015, Prime Minister Narendra Modi scrapped the deal and announced an Inter-Governmental Agreement with France for 36 Rafales at a cost of €7.87 billion, including aircraft, spares, weapons and a maintenance and performance guarantee for five years.

Final choice
Under the new deal, the IAF is looking for over 100 aircraft, and the official said that whether single- or twin-engine, the aircraft were equally competent and the final choice would depend on the extent of technology transfer and price.

Another reason for widening the tender is for the selection of a competent Indian partner. In anticipation of a single-engine tender, Lockheed and SAAB had tied up with prospective Indian partners.

“The Indian SP partner has to be selected by the government through a competitive evaluation. So it is good to have a wider pool of both OEMs [original equipment manufacturer] and Indian partners to choose from,” the official said.

Additional Rafales
One defence official observed that procuring at least two more squadrons of Rafale jets would make economic, operational and logistical sense as India is spending €2 billion on IAF-specific customisations and 36 is too small a number.

“It makes logical sense and would save us money as the additional aircraft would cost less. But in the current political climate, it is not possible,” he said.

The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons but is currently down to 31 squadrons and with the planned induction of 36 Rafales between 2019 and 2022, remaining Sukhoi-30MKI and some LCA Tejas, the strength will hover at 30 till 2027 and in the subsequent five-year term, will fall to 27. If there are no newer inductions, it is expected to slide further to 19 squadrons by 2042.
 

Grevion

Harry
Nov 30, 2017
52
56
Raam Janmbhoomi, India
Not this nonsense again. When i started foruming back in 2011 both Rafale and Eurofighter were shortlisted in MMRCA and Rafale was declared winner after a though competition. Inspite of RFI being issued in 2004, 14 years later we still haven't received a damn fighter.:ROFLMAO:
Best is to focus on Tejas 1A and make them operational and produced in numbers
I have reported your post for being far too optimistic and dreaming things only possible in a parallel universe.
 

Notsuperstitious

Well-Known member
Dec 31, 2017
411
553
India
Its not the money. It was never the money. Its just that IAF and babudom cannot decide what they want. Throw in Make in India and its even harder negotiation. I guess we should get the ToT which these countries are comfortable in giving for our order size and then reverse engineer the shit out of the planes.

Corruption.

Our babus and senior army AF navy guys are thoroughly corrupt that is the issue.

That is the only real showstopper issue.

The second issue is competence. I have met very senior army officers and was shocked at how under educated they were to deal with new age tech, running projects and programs and how it impacts strategy. There is a reason we cant buy enough top quality rifles but are adding more headcount.
 
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Desi Lover

Member
Mar 1, 2018
75
29
New zealand
Few weeks back I had told you guys not to write off F-18SH for IN MRCBF reqts. I did not want to share more info at that time as it was not in open domain. I think I can now talk about it. Boeing and America are offering this aircraft minus any kind of restrictions if the numbers are large and above 150.

Do you mean full TOT? How do you know?
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,873
838
France
In any case Rafales are not coming any more.
1) India will not make the Mirage 2000 error twice : too small fleet.
2) India spent too much money outside the sole Rafale frame to stop to 36.
3) Real dry cost of the Rafale is in the 85€millions. A Gripen E or F16 are not significantly cheaper, but performances are lower.

So I think you're wrong.