MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 24 12.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 156 78.4%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 9 4.5%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    199

screambowl

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Dec 19, 2017
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The single-engine or twin-engine criterion is not relevant for evaluating the cost in operation. For example if we compare an F-35 and an F-15 we have two aircraft roughly comparable in weight and thrust. F-35 is single-engine and F-15 is twin-engine, yet it is likely that the operating cost of F-35 is not lower than that of F-15.
A more interesting criterion is the mass: the French DGA studied this subject and determined that, all things being equal, the cost of operation was proportional to the empty weight.

you can compare the M88 fuel consumption with F414. More over a country needs to see it's fuel reserves and other sort of logistics before going for twin or sin eng. of comparing operating cost of f35 with f15/f18 is not right example. Both are different categories.

Rafale is going to come in more than 200 numbers
Not happening. Because if it was to be ordered, would have ordered by now. brining another 164 rafales would take 10 years. INDIA cnt remain without stealth tech for long, so the capital will be invested in either fgfa or amca.
 

smestarz

Well-Known member
Nov 30, 2017
538
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Actung Panzers
Strange, yu say that India needs 5th Gen plane and not 4th gen plane and yet you suggest buying Rafales?
Rafale is a 4th gen plane, no matter how its peddled

Are you saying F-35 and B2 have the same role?



Why does India need 4th gen fighters when 5th Generation is the trend.



The cost of next two squadrons of Rafales would definitely going to be cheaper than the first two squadrons of Gripen.
 

smestarz

Well-Known member
Nov 30, 2017
538
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Actung Panzers
It is Strange that IAF was hell bent that Gripen and F-16 were Single engined and hence they could not take them for MRCA and then it was made to MMRCA to justify it, Then when there is single engine requirement (Light MRCA) which will should replace the single engine MiG-21, how do planes like Rafale or Eurofighter come into that Category.
The point here is that IAF can lie and manipulate for what it wants, It does not really have a clue or vision of how it wants to face China and Pakistan in future.

Air chief should envisage new battlegrounds and they would be fought, Fighting is also about resource managment which IAF has no clue about (the spare managment shows you that)
 

smestarz

Well-Known member
Nov 30, 2017
538
323
Actung Panzers
It is relevant of course
Single engine plane and twin engine plane of same generation will have a difference,
In a way, either you are stupid or too manipulative to compare F-15 (twin engine 4th gen plane) with F-35 (single engine 5th gen plane)
With each generation the cost of operation and maintenance will be different
If you compare say F-22 and F-35, you will see there is big difference (same generation) also if you compare F-15 and and F-22 (both twin engine) there is big difference

BTW are you trying to say that cost of oepration of Rafale is same as Mirage 2000 ? Really?
Try to give a relevant example and not examples that can be ripped apart

The single-engine or twin-engine criterion is not relevant for evaluating the cost in operation. For example if we compare an F-35 and an F-15 we have two aircraft roughly comparable in weight and thrust. F-35 is single-engine and F-15 is twin-engine, yet it is likely that the operating cost of F-35 is not lower than that of F-15.
A more interesting criterion is the mass: the French DGA studied this subject and determined that, all things being equal, the cost of operation was proportional to the empty weight.
 

Herciv

Active member
Nov 30, 2017
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I think you didn't follow the MMRCA deal during 2012-2014 phase. If you had then you would have known that "RAFALE IS TOO EXPENSIVE".
You should have said "RAFALE WAS TOO EXPENSIVE". Negociation between France DASSAULT and India have never broken considering that Rafale was only a part of the problem and that both side have too much to win from one to the other. With that price India buy its independence.
Concerning the Rafale, it is considers today by the IAF as the best solution for a lot of mission if not the only one considering the strategic aspects.
In a way, either you are stupid or too manipulative to compare F-15 (twin engine 4th gen plane) with F-35 (single engine 5th gen plane)
With each generation the cost of operation and maintenance will be different
You are perhaps not ready to accept this but that's exactly what pic told you : reducing the operating cost of a plane to the engine is not relevant. But It is possible to manage the operation cost in the long term by only taken into account the empty weight as the DGA has said.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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It is relevant of course
Single engine plane and twin engine plane of same generation will have a difference,
In a way, either you are stupid or too manipulative to compare F-15 (twin engine 4th gen plane) with F-35 (single engine 5th gen plane)
With each generation the cost of operation and maintenance will be different
If you compare say F-22 and F-35, you will see there is big difference (same generation) also if you compare F-15 and and F-22 (both twin engine) there is big difference

BTW are you trying to say that cost of oepration of Rafale is same as Mirage 2000 ? Really?
Try to give a relevant example and not examples that can be ripped apart
It's not for you that I gave these explanations, for you I know it's useless. But the others have understood.
 
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Ashwin

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IAF to embark on a long shopping sortie for a jet


It’s back to square one for the force as the government has scrapped the MMRCA tender; evaluation and other processes will take at least 2 years

Almost two decades after it began a search for a fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force is back to square one. The IAF will begin the search again to arrest its falling squadron strength, as the Union government had scrapped the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender after ordering 36 Rafale fighters from France in flyaway condition.

“The Request for Information (RFI) for selecting a new fighter aircraft is expected to be issued before the DefExpo in April. It will be an open tender and not limited to single-engine aircraft,” a defence official told The Hindu.

Earlier, the IAF was looking for a single-engine jet to replace the MiG-21s and MiG-27s. The new jets were to be manufactured in India by the private industry under the Strategic Partnership model. However, the contest is now being opened up.





Contest renews
“The contest for single-engine jets has only two contenders and it would end up being a single-vendor situation on technical evaluation. So it has been decided to widen the contest to avoid issues later,” the official said.

While the Lockheed Martin F-16 and SAAB Gripen are single-engine fighters, the contest will be now open to Boeing F-18, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian MiG-35, all of which were part of the earlier MMRCA contest. The open tender will essentially be MMRCA all over again.

“The IAF has already evaluated all the aircraft in the MMRCA contest. So once the technical evaluation process starts, selection of one aircraft can be completed in two years. After that, it is the contract negotiations. Concluding the contract depends on how fast we can close it,” an IAF source said.

In 2000, the government decided to procure 126 fighter jets, but it was only in 2007 that the RFI, the first step in the long procurement process, was issued for 126 aircraft under the MMRCA deal expected to cost around $12 billion.

However, with contract negotiations reaching a deadlock, in 2015, Prime Minister Narendra Modi scrapped the deal and announced an Inter-Governmental Agreement with France for 36 Rafales at a cost of €7.87 billion, including aircraft, spares, weapons and a maintenance and performance guarantee for five years.

Final choice
Under the new deal, the IAF is looking for over 100 aircraft, and the official said that whether single- or twin-engine, the aircraft were equally competent and the final choice would depend on the extent of technology transfer and price.

Another reason for widening the tender is for the selection of a competent Indian partner. In anticipation of a single-engine tender, Lockheed and SAAB had tied up with prospective Indian partners.

“The Indian SP partner has to be selected by the government through a competitive evaluation. So it is good to have a wider pool of both OEMs [original equipment manufacturer] and Indian partners to choose from,” the official said.

Additional Rafales
One defence official observed that procuring at least two more squadrons of Rafale jets would make economic, operational and logistical sense as India is spending €2 billion on IAF-specific customisations and 36 is too small a number.

“It makes logical sense and would save us money as the additional aircraft would cost less. But in the current political climate, it is not possible,” he said.

The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons but is currently down to 31 squadrons and with the planned induction of 36 Rafales between 2019 and 2022, remaining Sukhoi-30MKI and some LCA Tejas, the strength will hover at 30 till 2027 and in the subsequent five-year term, will fall to 27. If there are no newer inductions, it is expected to slide further to 19 squadrons by 2042.
 

Ashwin

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IAF speeds up hunt for new fighter jets to add muscle

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to start the process of inviting foreign military contractors to build fighter jets in the country under the government’s Make in India plan in the next four weeks , a person familiar with the project said.

This multi-billion-dollar project to build 114 jets will be “directly linked” to the development of an indigenous futuristic stealth fighter – the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), the person added.

The air force plans to issue a request for information (RFI) before DefExpo-2018 — a military systems exhibition by the defence ministry — opens in Chennai on April 11.

“The document will not specify the number of engines the jets should have, leaving the field open for makers of both single- and twin-engine planes,” said the person who asked not to be named.

An earlier plan involved pursuing two separate projects to build single-engine and twin-engine fighters in India but that distinction has been discarded now.

The RFI is the first step towards finding a new warplane for the air force and global plane manufacturers will respond to it with operational features and technical parameters of their platforms. That will pave the way for the air force to make a case for getting the ministry’s ‘acceptance of necessity’ (AoN) – the government’s stamp of approval to pursue a military programme.

“After the AoN comes, we could either opt for a government-to-government deal or put out a tender. Both options are open at this stage,” said a senior officer tracking the air force’s modernisation on the condition of anonymity.

The manufacturer that India finally decides to collaborate with will have to commit to transfer of technology not only for the fighter to be built in India but also for the AMCA that is on the drawing board.

“We have asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to prepare a list of technologies they need help with for the AMCA. There will be clear clause on the transfer of those technologies in the contract,” said the officer quoted above.

Experts say the full-scale engineering development of the AMCA up to the prototype stage will take upwards of a decade and its flight first could take place around 2030.

India had floated a global tender for 126 planes more than a decade ago but it was cancelled after Prime Minister Narendra Modi declared in April 2015 that India would directly buy 36 Rafale jets from France.

Six fighters took part in that contest before the Rafale and the Eurofighter made it to the last round.

The new competition is also likely to be among Rafale, Eurofighter, MiG-35, F/A-18, F-16 and Gripen.

“The technology has evolved during the past decade. In their present form, F/A-18 and Gripen NG would not have been rejected in the older contest,” the officer said.

The air force wants to speed up the project as the count of its fighter squadrons has shrunk to 31 compared to an optimum strength of 42-plus units required to fight a two-front war.

The Chinese and Pakistani air forces operate at 60 and 25 fighter squadrons respectively.

@randomradio @vstol Jockey @Picdelamirand-oil @halloweene @Ankit Kumar @Abingdonboy @Nick @ni8mare
 
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sunstersun

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It's the exact same thing with the same jets. What's going to change? Rafale has a huge edge with 36 already ordered. It would be cool if the F-35 was added tho.
 

Shajida Khan

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Dec 27, 2017
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India Wants to Link Its Rebooted Fighter Jet Tender to Future Stealth Fighter Development

BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKMARCH 12, 2018


India Wants to Link Its Rebooted Fighter Jet Tender to Future Stealth Fighter Development

Indian authorities say they will require whoever wins the new deal to help support separate work on a fifth generation fighter aircraft.


The Indian Air Force reportedly is set to formally reboot its plans to purchase nearly 115 fighter jets within weeks, but it may tie any final contract to a demand that it also receive technical assistance for its domestic fifth generation fighter project. This decision would seem to confirm ongoing reports that India is not happy with the progress of its existing stealth fighter deal with Russia, might again give Lockheed Martin an upper hand since it is already building the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, and could just further complicate the already protracted attempts to get any new aircraft.

On March 11, 2018, The Hindustan Times reported that India would begin sending out official requests for information to companies looking to submit bids on the fighter jet tender by the first week of April. In February 2018, it emerged that the India Air Force would halt an existing plan to buy 114 single-engine fighter jets and rewrite the requirements to open the deal up to twin-engine designs, as well. The revised deal will now include the winning firm to transfer potentially sensitive technology to support the Indian military’s fifth generation fighter program, known as the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft(AMCA).


“We have asked the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) to prepare a list of technologies they need help with for the AMCA,” the unnamed individual told The Hindustan Times. “There will be clear clause on the transfer of those technologies in the contract.”

India’s efforts to procure new fighter jets have already been a saga spanning more than decade. This new tender will be the third formal attempt to purchase the aircraft since 2007. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has been officially working on the AMCA project since 2010, with a goal of having a flying prototype by 2025.

With immediate contract field now open to both single- and twin-engine designs, the competition will most likely including American manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed Martin with their F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16IN Viper respectively, the French Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Sweden’s Saab Gripen-E, and at least one Russian aircraft, such as a variant of the MiG-35 Fulcrum-F or Su-35 Flanker-E. The F-16IN appeared to have the lead over the Gripen-E in the previous-single engine tender.

As we had noted in the past, there were a number of good reasons why a twin-engine design might turn out to be the new favorite. Most importantly, the Indian Air Force is already buying 36 Rafales. French authorities have been pushing India to begin negotiating a new deal for a second tranche of 36 more jets, but so far India has not made any official announcement about any additional purchases.

The French jet and the F/A-18E/F are also emerging as the front-runners in an Indian Navy competition to purchase new fighter jets for its presently planned fleet of short-takeoff but arrested recovery (STOBAR) aircraft carriers, as well as the catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) types it wants to build in the future. If both services were to operate the same aircraft, or variants with a high commonality in basic components and mission systems, this could cut logistics and sustainment expenses and offset the typically higher costs of twin-engine aircraft compared to single-engine types.

As such, it looked initially that Boeing and Dassault had the most to gain from the changes to the Indian tender. But the inclusion of the stealth fighter technology transfer requirement could change the calculus yet again.

If nothing else, this could be a signal that India will be less inclined to consider any offering from Russia. The Indians and the Russians have been working together on fifth generation fighter jet development for some time, there have been repeated reports that the Indian Air Force is frustrated with the lack of results from the Su-57 stealth fighter project and more recently there has been the suggestion that authorities in New Delhi might finally scrap that work altogether. It was possible that the Kremlin’s otherwise curious decision to send a pair of its prototype jets to Syria in February 2018 was in part to try and demonstrate more significant progress with that program.

Of the remaining likely contenders, only some are actively working on low-observable aircraft. Not all of them are doing so at the same level or are developing a fifth generation fighter specifically.

Boeing has been working on some limited low-observable upgrade options for the Super Hornet, as well the latest models of its F-15 Eagle, such as fully-enclosed weapons pods or conformal add-on bays. This level of technological knowhow may not be enough satisfy the DRDO’s desire for broader help with the ACMA.

While Dassault has been working on stealthy unmanned combat air vehicles(UCAV), European aviation consortium Airbus – which supports production of the Typhoon in various countries – has been the firm more actively working on France’s future fifth generation fighter project. Regardless, French stealth fighter and UCAV programs are also in partnership with Germany and the United Kingdom, respectively, which could add another hurdle in sharing any appropriate technical information with the Indians.

Saab has been quietly working on the Swedish Air Force’s Flygsystem 2020stealth fighter project for at least a decade now, but the exact status of that development is unclear. In 2013, the company did sign a deal to support Turkey’s fifth generation TFX project.

Lockheed Martin is the only competitor actively producing a fifth generation fighter jet, the F-35, which could give it a leg up again in the competition. The Maryland-headquartered company had already made a particularly appealing pitch in the last iteration of the competition, stating that if its F-16IN won, it would establish a joint production line with Indian manufacturing conglomerate Tata to build jets for the Indian Air Force and use that same domestic assembly line to churn out additional aircraft for export elsewhere. On top of that, it said it would consider working with Tata to build Viper components even if the contract fell through.

It is conceivable that the firm might now propose a new deal wherein India buys conventional F-35As for the Indian Air Force and gets additional help with the ACMA. Lockheed Martin might then also offer the short and vertical takeoff capable F-35B or carrier-focused C models as options for the Indian Navy's tender.

The U.S. government will have to approve any deal involving an American company and this might be a more complicated procedure with regards to the sensitive technology in the F-35. American authorities will have to gauge whether or not they believe it is in the country's best interests to give India access to and details about low-observable design features and manufacturing processes, as well as advanced avionics, radars, sensor systems, data links, computer networks, and other mission systems.

However, President Donald Trump and his administration have shown much greater willingness to explore selling Joint Strike Fighters more broadly, including to the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, already. The administration has also looked to bolster its ties with India in general, making the country a centerpiece of its new Afghanistan and South Asian policy goals. It's not hard to imagine Lockheed Martin getting approval for a deal to sell dozens of F-35A, B, and C models to the Indian government, which could potentially help in further driving down the plane's unit costs, which is a major goal for the U.S. military.

But India may not be as interested in buying any foreign stealth fighter as it is in getting assistance for the domestic ACMA. In February 2018, there were reports that Indian authorities had requested a classified briefing on the Joint Strike Fighter, but the next month Indian Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa publicly denied those claims.

This episode followed a Press Trust of India report in January 2018 that suggested Lockheed Martin was considering establishing a production line for the F-35 in India. The company subsequently said that report has misstated remarks from one of its executives and added that there were no plans to build even a less expansive final assembly and checkout facility, or FACO, in the country. At present there are FACOs in Italy and Japan supporting the international Joint Strike Fighter program.

And even if India were to receive U.S. government approval to purchase the F-35 and pursue that option, it’s not clear what kind of technological information Lockheed Martin might truly be willing to transfer in the end and to what degree. Most importantly, as it stands now, with the exception of Israel, all the countries taking part in the Joint Strike Fighter project have found themselves linked in large part to a multi-national logistics and information chain thanks to the jet’s on board computer brain, called the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS).

This has already prompted concerns in a number of countries about how much sensitive data the jets are collecting and potentially sending to Lockheed Martin or the U.S. government or if they might be shut off from software updates or other critical data in an emergency. At the same time, even when working with the U.S. military, Lockheed Martin has been especially keen to keep control over as much of its proprietary network architecture as possible.

The U.S. military has similarly shared concerns about whether or not this level of connectivity puts the United States’ own capabilities at risk. Foreign computer networks may be more vulnerable to cyber attacks and espionage or could be deliberately linked to systems that might feed information on to hostile nations. Turkey, for instance, wants to connect its future F-35s to the rest of its integrated air defense net, which will eventually include Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile systems.

Similar considerations could easily apply to requests for technology transfer from any other entrant into the revised Indian fighter competition. In turn, it seems very likely that linking both requirements together could easily slow down the overall process, even after India picks a winning design, due to the need for complex negotiations. The Indian purchase of just 36 Rafale jets for the country’s air force experienced significant delays due to disputes over technology transfer and local production and that deal remains clouded in controversy.

All of this comes as the Indian Air Force is increasingly in desperate need of new fighter jets, whether they be advanced fourth generation or stealthy fifth generation designs. Since 2001, the service has made it clear that it has a standing requirement for more than 100 aircraft to replace a host of aging types that are increasingly literally falling out of the sky.

India is also facing increasing challenges from China, which is expanding its influence in Asia and elsewhere around the world, as well as the need to provide a credible defense against long-time rival Pakistan. According to The Hindustan Times, China has approximately 60 squadrons of combat aircraft, while Pakistan has 25.

The Indian government has said that, in order to counter those potential threats and perform other necessary missions, the Indian Air Force needs at least 42 squadrons of combat aircraft itself. At present, it has 31, down from 33 in 2017, and that number is almost certain to continue to drop dramatically over the next decade unless something changes.

It’s seems increasingly clear that India cannot afford to wait much longer to acquire additional aircraft. And whether or not it will be able to rely on a domestic project, even with foreign assistance, to produce a stealth fighter design in a timely manner isn’t guaranteed, either.

Fifth generation fighter jet programs have historically shown themselves to be exceptionally costly and time consuming, even for manufacturers with histories of building stealthy aircraft. India’s own effort to develop a much less complex indigenous fourth generation type, the Tejas, has been beset by both technical and bureaucratic hurdles. That aircraft, as it exists now, has largely failed to meet expectations despite more than two decades of work, with the Indian Navy rejecting the idea of buying a carrier based version of it outright.

As it stands now, India is clearly pushing ahead with its desire to use this fighter jet tender to help expand its on domestic production military aviation capacity and capabilities. At a certain point, it may have to temper those goals with the increasingly pressing need for capable combat aircraft, but its not clear whether that would do anything to get past the country's otherwise historically dysfunctional or erratic procurement process.

Contact the author: [email protected]
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What the hell is this? Is it even believable or reliable? Haven't heard of this news site. The Drive ie. It runs counter to local news coming out of new delhi! I thought New Delhi has coerced in getting IAF to agree to induct LCA Mk2 once it arrives. This is a totally new thing I am seeing! Any comments? @Aashish @vstol Jockey @Hellfire @Nilgiri @Levina
 

Proud_Indian

Abhay
Dec 2, 2017
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What the hell is this? Is it even believable or reliable? Haven't heard of this news site. The Drive ie. It runs counter to local news coming out of new delhi! I thought New Delhi has coerced in getting IAF to agree to induct LCA Mk2 once it arrives. This is a totally new thing I am seeing! Any


It was first reported by Rahul singh of Hindustan times

 
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Shajida Khan

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Dec 27, 2017
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[QUOTE="Shajida Khan, post: 23920, member: 223"What the hell is this? Is it even believable or reliable? Haven't heard of this news site. The Drive ie. It runs counter to local news coming out of new delhi! I thought New Delhi has coerced in getting IAF to agree to induct LCA Mk2 once it arrives. This is a totally new thing I am seeing! Any comments? @Aashish @vstol Jockey @Hellfire @Nilgiri @Levina


It was first reported by Rahul singh of Hindustan times

[/QUOTE]
Okay and how does it reconcile with this ?
 

Ironhide

Active member
Dec 6, 2017
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It was first reported by Rahul singh of Hindustan times

Okay and how does it reconcile with this ?

Looks like a LM propaganda piece, get ready for a barrage of LM supporting articles as this is their modus operandi and no need of paying any attention to western blogs like the drive, they often portray all Russian fighter jets as junk and USA jets as some UFO level aircrafts, just look at the drive article championing the F16 over Rafale and SU57 LOL
 

Shajida Khan

Senior member
Dec 27, 2017
1,514
1,578
Seattle
Looks like a LM propaganda piece, get ready for a barrage of LM supporting articles as this is their modus operandi and no need of paying any attention to western blogs like the drive, they often portray all Russian fighter jets as junk and USA jets as some UFO level aircrafts, just look at the drive article championing the F16 over Rafale and SU57 LOL
Looks like you were bang on target! Same site, same author and just one day later the rattle of F-35 has been brandished in front of Indian analysts/journos to look at and report.... The same Buy F-16 now and buy F-35 later is back!

U.S. Pacific Command Boss Mentions Potential Sale Of F-35 To India

It would be the first official statement regarding the U.S. potentially selling F-35s to India.

U.S. Pacific Command Boss Mentions Potential Sale Of F-35 To India

Just as India's once again hits the reset button on its premier fighter aircraft procurement program and becomes ever more disillusioned with Russia's 5th generation fighter offering, the head of U.S. Pacific Command has supposedly stated that he supports the sale of F-35s to India. This would be the first official admission that such a possibility is even on the table, although The War Zone has long suspected this would be the case.

....