MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
- Start date
This is the American dream, you have to stop taking your information from American propagandists.
【歼10C低空飞行穿山谷-哔哩哔哩】 歼10C低空飞行穿山谷_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
I think most fighters can do this
And if China puts an HQ 17 under this valley,
Finally, the new SEAD/DEAD capability may be a drone from the nEUROn programme that will accompany the Rafale F5:
A drone from the nEUROn programme will accompany the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard
In view of the delay and the uncertainties that remain about it, the SCAF programme [Future Air Combat System], led by France in cooperation with Germany and Spain, risks not being operational by 2040. Hence the need to develop the Rafale's F5 standard, to enable the Strategic Air Forces [SAF] and the Naval Aviation to field the ASN4G hypersonic superstar missile in the next decade.
At a recent hearing in the French National Assembly, the Chief of Staff of the French Air Force [AAE], General Stéphane Mille, said that the launch of development work on the F5 standard had been approved by Sébastien Lecornu, the French Minister of the Army. "This work will be carried out within the framework of the current Military Programming Law [LPM]. They will demonstrate the Rafale's upgradability, which we have been seeking for several decades," he said.
However, the draft LPM 2024-30, which will soon be discussed by MPs in public session, does not mention the Rafale F5 but only "the evolution of the Rafale" and the "preparation of the future fighter aircraft" in the framework of the SCAF. At present, however, the Rafale is to be upgraded to the F4 standard... Which could lead to confusion...
In any case, the Ministry of Defence intends to clarify this point with Amendment 292. This amendment aims to specify that "the F5 standard of the Rafale will be developed during this military programming law. But it also provides important information. "It [this new standard] includes in particular the development of a drone to accompany the Rafale, resulting from the work of the nEUROn demonstrator.
The text does not provide any further details... And we will undoubtedly learn more during the next parliamentary debates. However, it is possible that the intention of the Ministry of the Armed Forces is to develop a "loyal wingman" type drone.
As a reminder, the nEUROn is a European cooperation project involving France [Dassault Aviation, prime contractor], Switzerland [with RUAG], Sweden [with Saab], Italy [Leonardo], Spain [Airbus Defence & Space] and Greece [HAI]. With a mass of 7 tonnes, a wingspan of 12.5 metres and a width of 9.2 metres, it is capable of carrying GBU-12 laser-guided bombs. Finally, thanks to its Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour Mk. 951 turbojet engine, it can fly at a speed of Mach 0.8 at an altitude of 14,000 metres.
As Emmanuel Chiva, the Délégué général pour l'armement, explained to members of the Defence Committee, the nEUROn's capabilities in the areas of manoeuvrability and stealth are "integrated into our roadmap on the future of fighter aviation".
"We are also considering the droning of combat aircraft in the framework of the SCAF. This concerns a new generation aircraft with a combat cloud and two droned wingmen. This involves working on the capabilities of robotising an unmanned aircraft and interacting with a manned aircraft and the pilot himself", Mr Chiva went on to say, but he could not say more, as the other work in progress was "classified".
In any case, according to General Mille, the Rafale F5 will be a "very different" aircraft, with the capacity to handle "huge volumes of data" and increased connectivity. In addition, it will once again provide so-called SEAD [suppression of enemy air defences] capabilities.
A drone from the nEUROn programme will accompany the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard
In view of the delay and the uncertainties that remain about it, the SCAF programme [Future Air Combat System], led by France in cooperation with Germany and Spain, risks not being operational by 2040. Hence the need to develop the Rafale's F5 standard, to enable the Strategic Air Forces [SAF] and the Naval Aviation to field the ASN4G hypersonic superstar missile in the next decade.
At a recent hearing in the French National Assembly, the Chief of Staff of the French Air Force [AAE], General Stéphane Mille, said that the launch of development work on the F5 standard had been approved by Sébastien Lecornu, the French Minister of the Army. "This work will be carried out within the framework of the current Military Programming Law [LPM]. They will demonstrate the Rafale's upgradability, which we have been seeking for several decades," he said.
However, the draft LPM 2024-30, which will soon be discussed by MPs in public session, does not mention the Rafale F5 but only "the evolution of the Rafale" and the "preparation of the future fighter aircraft" in the framework of the SCAF. At present, however, the Rafale is to be upgraded to the F4 standard... Which could lead to confusion...
In any case, the Ministry of Defence intends to clarify this point with Amendment 292. This amendment aims to specify that "the F5 standard of the Rafale will be developed during this military programming law. But it also provides important information. "It [this new standard] includes in particular the development of a drone to accompany the Rafale, resulting from the work of the nEUROn demonstrator.
The text does not provide any further details... And we will undoubtedly learn more during the next parliamentary debates. However, it is possible that the intention of the Ministry of the Armed Forces is to develop a "loyal wingman" type drone.
As a reminder, the nEUROn is a European cooperation project involving France [Dassault Aviation, prime contractor], Switzerland [with RUAG], Sweden [with Saab], Italy [Leonardo], Spain [Airbus Defence & Space] and Greece [HAI]. With a mass of 7 tonnes, a wingspan of 12.5 metres and a width of 9.2 metres, it is capable of carrying GBU-12 laser-guided bombs. Finally, thanks to its Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour Mk. 951 turbojet engine, it can fly at a speed of Mach 0.8 at an altitude of 14,000 metres.
As Emmanuel Chiva, the Délégué général pour l'armement, explained to members of the Defence Committee, the nEUROn's capabilities in the areas of manoeuvrability and stealth are "integrated into our roadmap on the future of fighter aviation".
"We are also considering the droning of combat aircraft in the framework of the SCAF. This concerns a new generation aircraft with a combat cloud and two droned wingmen. This involves working on the capabilities of robotising an unmanned aircraft and interacting with a manned aircraft and the pilot himself", Mr Chiva went on to say, but he could not say more, as the other work in progress was "classified".
In any case, according to General Mille, the Rafale F5 will be a "very different" aircraft, with the capacity to handle "huge volumes of data" and increased connectivity. In addition, it will once again provide so-called SEAD [suppression of enemy air defences] capabilities.
24 rafale/year by DRAL, not to bad ? I hope it's because there's something big coming.
I guess France has decided to make Rafales at a much lower cost in India even without any potential Indian orders. With that said, any peicemeal orders from both IN and IAF can meet the necessary quota too.
Avions de combat : des Rafale de la tranche 5 livrables dès 2027
Combat aircraft: tranche 5 Rafales to be delivered from 2027On 24 May, the Chairman of Dassault Aviation spoke about the prospects of the military programming law for his group. The Rafales of tranche 5, which is due to be notified this year, could be delivered earlier than planned, as early as 2027, a subject still under discussion with the State.
Rafale: first deliveries of tranche 4T2
Dassault Aviation began delivering the 40 Rafales of the 4T2 tranche at the end of the year. This contract provides for both the 28 Rafales of the historical 4T2 and the 12 aircraft ordered to compensate for the deduction made in the Greek contract. 13 aircraft will be delivered in 2023, as many in 2024, 12 in 2025 and the balance in 2026, said the president of Dassault Aviation, who recalled that "the 4T2 had been blocked for years and years, it was delayed for exclusively budgetary reasons" and not to be able to deliver aircraft for export.
Tranche 5 is still under discussion with the State and will concern the 30 aircraft originally planned, and there again, 12 aircraft compensating for the Rafales taken from the Air Force and Space for Croatia. "Deliveries are being discussed, but with the bulk of the aircraft arriving from 2029 onwards, we are discussing having a few aircraft to be delivered in 2027 and 2028," the chairman of Dassault Aviation told the senators. This increase in rate would not pose significant problems for the aircraft manufacturer, which has already gone from "less than one aircraft per month to three aircraft (...), we could go to rate 4".
SCAF: reservations about expanding the trio
The Chairman of Dassault Aviation also expressed "reservations" about extending the current trio of countries involved in the SCAF to third parties, and in particular to Belgium. "I hear that we could give work to Belgian companies right away, but I don't see why I would do that," insisted the CEO of Dassault Aviation, who prefers to concentrate on the three-way completion of phases 1B (underway) and 2 (demonstrator) before "opening the door too quickly" to new industrial partners.
A Falcon 10X in a maritime patrol version?
He also recalled that Dassault Aviation will deliver in the next LPM the three electronic warfare Archangel, part of the 12 Albatros for maritime surveillance, and that it intends to continue supplying the Navy with maritime patrol aircraft, with a unique experience in this field in Europe dating back to 1958 (with the Atlantic). Dassault Aviation's response was the Falcon 10X "which would satisfy the French Navy in terms of volume and capacity", with, in particular, a range of 7500 nautical miles. The LPM only announces, at this stage, the delivery of the first three new generation aircraft before 2035.
It's look like a real strategy not depending from an Indian order but more from the whole Arabo Indo Pacific region orders. Dassault have to diversify it's whole supply chain and India has great capacities to assume this workshare.
Thailand air force says U.S. has denied request to buy F-35 jets
One of my whining points were that US was officially discussing selling F35s to a nation looking to buy Chinese submarines.
Finally sense prevails in US. They are offering F16 to Thailand too.
One of my whining points were that US was officially discussing selling F35s to a nation looking to buy Chinese submarines.
Finally sense prevails in US. They are offering F16 to Thailand too.
it's also a country whose air force conducts annual exercises with the plaaf: Falcon Strike
Yeah, a few years ago, there was talk of manufacturing some UAE Rafales in India. While that may not happen, there is potential for new orders to have an Indian component. MRO and MLU work can be carried out in India though, for pretty much all imported jets in the ME and SEA.
The numbers they wanted was not realistic enough right off the bat anyway.
Seen recently on ae.net :
Question : On the other hand, if external payloads account for 90/95% of the Rafale's SER, we might as well have external payloads that are as stealthy as possible. If we divide the Rafale's SER in combat configuration by 20, we divide the range of enemy radars by 2, which is far from negligible.
Answer :
Once again: yes? no? why?
Okay, the Rafale's payload represents the bulk of its SER. But what's the point of a reduced SER? Generally speaking, it serves two purposes in our use of air power:
1) to be able to penetrate and bypass adversaries' defenses without being shot down, in air-to-ground penetration missions
2) to be able to shoot first at an airborne adversary without being counter-detected in return.
In both cases, the French choice for the Rafale has been based on different approaches, with tactical results that are not necessarily inferior (on the contrary, sometimes).
On the penetration side, we have maintained very low-altitude penetration capabilities and, above all, developed air-to-ground weapons capable of being fired from a safe distance, outside the bubble of the enemy's defences. So yes, a SCALP costs more than a GBU-24. And yes, an AASM costs more than a GBU-12. Yes, an ASMP costs more than a B61. And yes, a future supersonic cruise missile will cost more than a handful of SDBs. But in the end, all these weapons, however expensive, still cost less than the extra cost of developing a stealth fighter.
In air-to-air, same thing. Okay, we're less stealthy than an F-35 or a J-20 (maybe). But we do have MICA-IR (soon to be NG), which can take out any stealth fighter without revealing the Rafale's position, provided we make good tactical use of it. And should the stealth fighter try to flush us out with its radar, we have a SPECTRA suite designed to locate it accurately enough to throw a MICA-IR (or even a Meteor?) in its face, or at least in the right direction.
What's all this to say?
That it's probably MUCH cheaper to develop weapons that carry two or three times as far (as we've already done with the AASM in air-to-ground and the Meteor in air-to-air) than to divide the Rafale's SER by 20 to enable it to get twice as close.
In fact, the new air-to-ground weapons to be developed in the coming years will probably be designed from the outset to be more stealthy, in order to bypass enemy defenses. But this won't always be the case (especially for CAS ammunition, or for super/hypersonic weapons), and even when it is, the "weapon-fuselage" or "weapon-wing" interaction won't necessarily be hyper-stealthy. And that's where I still think we need to find the right balance between the money invested in passive stealth, and the money to be invested in electronic warfare or in the
Question : On the other hand, if external payloads account for 90/95% of the Rafale's SER, we might as well have external payloads that are as stealthy as possible. If we divide the Rafale's SER in combat configuration by 20, we divide the range of enemy radars by 2, which is far from negligible.
Answer :
Once again: yes? no? why?
Okay, the Rafale's payload represents the bulk of its SER. But what's the point of a reduced SER? Generally speaking, it serves two purposes in our use of air power:
1) to be able to penetrate and bypass adversaries' defenses without being shot down, in air-to-ground penetration missions
2) to be able to shoot first at an airborne adversary without being counter-detected in return.
In both cases, the French choice for the Rafale has been based on different approaches, with tactical results that are not necessarily inferior (on the contrary, sometimes).
On the penetration side, we have maintained very low-altitude penetration capabilities and, above all, developed air-to-ground weapons capable of being fired from a safe distance, outside the bubble of the enemy's defences. So yes, a SCALP costs more than a GBU-24. And yes, an AASM costs more than a GBU-12. Yes, an ASMP costs more than a B61. And yes, a future supersonic cruise missile will cost more than a handful of SDBs. But in the end, all these weapons, however expensive, still cost less than the extra cost of developing a stealth fighter.
In air-to-air, same thing. Okay, we're less stealthy than an F-35 or a J-20 (maybe). But we do have MICA-IR (soon to be NG), which can take out any stealth fighter without revealing the Rafale's position, provided we make good tactical use of it. And should the stealth fighter try to flush us out with its radar, we have a SPECTRA suite designed to locate it accurately enough to throw a MICA-IR (or even a Meteor?) in its face, or at least in the right direction.
What's all this to say?
That it's probably MUCH cheaper to develop weapons that carry two or three times as far (as we've already done with the AASM in air-to-ground and the Meteor in air-to-air) than to divide the Rafale's SER by 20 to enable it to get twice as close.
In fact, the new air-to-ground weapons to be developed in the coming years will probably be designed from the outset to be more stealthy, in order to bypass enemy defenses. But this won't always be the case (especially for CAS ammunition, or for super/hypersonic weapons), and even when it is, the "weapon-fuselage" or "weapon-wing" interaction won't necessarily be hyper-stealthy. And that's where I still think we need to find the right balance between the money invested in passive stealth, and the money to be invested in electronic warfare or in the
Whose analysis is this? Interestingly enough it matches my Rafale vs J-20 fight scenario
. Here is what I wrote:"Now the big fight, Rafale vs J-20:
While our ex-IAF chief BS Dhanoa sir claimed that Su-30MKI detected J-20 over Tibet, we know that Chinese are no fools to design a stealth fighter that can be tracked from 100s of kms away by any X-band FCR. So, may be it was flying with Luneburg Lens at that time.
So, even if Rafale has an AESA radar, there is no way it is detecting J-20 using it before it's too late. So, how does Rafale fight?
Well, our Rafale has next gen OSF that also features supposedly long range(maybe QWIP based) IRST. While SPECTRA will keep Rafale safe from J-20's radar, both Rafale and J-20 will detect each other using their IRST in dense jamming environment. But the detection would be much close. Now Mica-IR comes into the fray. PL-10 is also IIR all-aspect WVR missile. But MICA-IR is designed with OSF's range in mind. Rafale will shoot MICA-IR earlier and maybe score hit earlier too.
Winner: Can't say but Rafale-I has a very good chance."
Link: India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .
Le Ministère des Armées veut co-developper le Rafale F5 avec le « Club Rafale » pour 2030
The French Ministry of Defence wants to co-develop the Rafale F5 with the "Club Rafale" by 2030
8th June 2023
When it was first presented, France's new Military Planning Act (Loi de Programmation Militaire 2024-2030) may have appeared dull and lacklustre, but it was considerably fleshed out during the parliamentary debates, both as a result of amendments from the parliamentarians themselves and through amendments or clarifications from the Ministry of the Armed Forces itself. Several key programmes were confirmed, such as the new-generation aircraft carrier, while the budget envelope was consolidated at €413 billion, and the Ministry of Defence opened the door to other opportunities, such as a second aircraft carrier or underwater combat drones.
The Rafale has also received a great deal of attention. A few days ago, the French Ministry of Defence presented an amendment to the French National Assembly aimed at providing a framework for programme developments, in particular for the F5 version, which is to have renewed data fusion capabilities, as well as new capabilities such as suppressing the enemy's anti-aircraft defences, and above all the ability to operate alongside combat drones developed from the Neuron programme.
However, while this amendment specified that work on the Rafale F5 and its combat drone should begin and be continued during the next LPM, everyone, including the CEO of Dassault Aviation, envisaged entry into service around 2035.
Questioned on this subject by the members of the Senate Committee on Armed Forces and International Affairs, the Minister for the Armed Forces, Sebastien Lecornu, yesterday presented a timetable, but also a programmatic approach, that was far more ambitious. Thus, according to the Minister, not part, but all of the R&D work to give birth to the Rafale F5 and the combat drone derived from the Neuron, will be carried out over the future 2024-2030 LPM, which assumes, as he explicitly confirmed, that the two aircraft will enter service in 2030, or at least at the very beginning of the LPM to follow.
This statement, while obviously more than welcome, was not the biggest surprise of the Minister's hearing. To develop and finance the new aircraft, the Minister intends to call on the Rafale Club, i.e. current operators (Egypt, Qatar, India, Greece) and future operators (Indonesia, Croatia, United Arab Emirates) of the aircraft, to participate in this critical development of the programme.
For the time being, this is probably just a potential opening mentioned by Sebastien Lecornu, but this announcement undeniably represents a profound paradigm shift for the Rafale programme, and more generally for the way in which France now sees the relationships it intends to maintain with the operators of its weapons systems.
Traditionally, France has divided its defence equipment customers into two broad categories. On the one hand, there are the partners, usually close European countries with whom the equipment is co-produced, as is the case with the United Kingdom in the field of missiles and war at sea, Germany and Spain in the field of combat aircraft and tanks, or Italy in the naval and ground-to-air missile fields.
The others are user customers, with whom it is possible to collaborate on an ad hoc basis, but who are almost never asked or even consulted when it comes to upgrading the equipment in service with the French armed forces.
This Manichean view of international relations in the field of defence equipment has often done a disservice to French exports, especially as other countries, such as Germany, Italy and the UK, are often much more flexible than Paris in this area. While media attention will probably focus on the new timetable for the Rafale F5 presented by the French Minister for the Armed Forces to the Senate, it is undoubtedly this shift that represents the most radical change in the offing, especially if it is subsequently extended beyond the Rafale programme alone.
In concrete terms, several current and future operators see the development of the Rafale F5 as both an operational and industrial opportunity. This is particularly true of Greece, which has an active aerospace industry, notably around the F-16. Egypt, and above all the United Arab Emirates, have shown great ambitions precisely to develop their respective defence aeronautics industries. Finally, while Qatar may also be interested in the subject, it is unlikely that Doha and Abu Dhabi will participate jointly in the same programme.
The shift in the commercial paradigm could potentially give a major new boost to French fighter exports in the years ahead
This approach could have a number of positive effects. Clearly, it will reduce the budgetary burden on the next LPM, which probably explains why the timetable has been revised to keep the budget constant. As Dassault Aviation is the undisputed prime contractor for these partners, it will be possible to apply the same collaboration matrix as that used for the Neuron programme, which produced excellent results.
Finally, it will make it possible to extend the industrial base and orders for new equipment, in particular UAVs and probably new aircraft, and thus ensure the Rafale's industrial activity and durability for the next decade and even beyond.
All that remains now is to extend this approach, which has been discussed many times in articles published on this site, to other programmes, so as to extend potential cooperation southwards, to the greatest benefit of the French defence industry and armed forces. We can only hope that this announcement will, in the months and years to come, develop into a real dynamic that will be extended to other French defence industrial and technological programmes.
The French Ministry of Defence wants to co-develop the Rafale F5 with the "Club Rafale" by 2030
8th June 2023
When it was first presented, France's new Military Planning Act (Loi de Programmation Militaire 2024-2030) may have appeared dull and lacklustre, but it was considerably fleshed out during the parliamentary debates, both as a result of amendments from the parliamentarians themselves and through amendments or clarifications from the Ministry of the Armed Forces itself. Several key programmes were confirmed, such as the new-generation aircraft carrier, while the budget envelope was consolidated at €413 billion, and the Ministry of Defence opened the door to other opportunities, such as a second aircraft carrier or underwater combat drones.
The Rafale has also received a great deal of attention. A few days ago, the French Ministry of Defence presented an amendment to the French National Assembly aimed at providing a framework for programme developments, in particular for the F5 version, which is to have renewed data fusion capabilities, as well as new capabilities such as suppressing the enemy's anti-aircraft defences, and above all the ability to operate alongside combat drones developed from the Neuron programme.
However, while this amendment specified that work on the Rafale F5 and its combat drone should begin and be continued during the next LPM, everyone, including the CEO of Dassault Aviation, envisaged entry into service around 2035.
Questioned on this subject by the members of the Senate Committee on Armed Forces and International Affairs, the Minister for the Armed Forces, Sebastien Lecornu, yesterday presented a timetable, but also a programmatic approach, that was far more ambitious. Thus, according to the Minister, not part, but all of the R&D work to give birth to the Rafale F5 and the combat drone derived from the Neuron, will be carried out over the future 2024-2030 LPM, which assumes, as he explicitly confirmed, that the two aircraft will enter service in 2030, or at least at the very beginning of the LPM to follow.
This statement, while obviously more than welcome, was not the biggest surprise of the Minister's hearing. To develop and finance the new aircraft, the Minister intends to call on the Rafale Club, i.e. current operators (Egypt, Qatar, India, Greece) and future operators (Indonesia, Croatia, United Arab Emirates) of the aircraft, to participate in this critical development of the programme.
For the time being, this is probably just a potential opening mentioned by Sebastien Lecornu, but this announcement undeniably represents a profound paradigm shift for the Rafale programme, and more generally for the way in which France now sees the relationships it intends to maintain with the operators of its weapons systems.
Traditionally, France has divided its defence equipment customers into two broad categories. On the one hand, there are the partners, usually close European countries with whom the equipment is co-produced, as is the case with the United Kingdom in the field of missiles and war at sea, Germany and Spain in the field of combat aircraft and tanks, or Italy in the naval and ground-to-air missile fields.
The others are user customers, with whom it is possible to collaborate on an ad hoc basis, but who are almost never asked or even consulted when it comes to upgrading the equipment in service with the French armed forces.
This Manichean view of international relations in the field of defence equipment has often done a disservice to French exports, especially as other countries, such as Germany, Italy and the UK, are often much more flexible than Paris in this area. While media attention will probably focus on the new timetable for the Rafale F5 presented by the French Minister for the Armed Forces to the Senate, it is undoubtedly this shift that represents the most radical change in the offing, especially if it is subsequently extended beyond the Rafale programme alone.
In concrete terms, several current and future operators see the development of the Rafale F5 as both an operational and industrial opportunity. This is particularly true of Greece, which has an active aerospace industry, notably around the F-16. Egypt, and above all the United Arab Emirates, have shown great ambitions precisely to develop their respective defence aeronautics industries. Finally, while Qatar may also be interested in the subject, it is unlikely that Doha and Abu Dhabi will participate jointly in the same programme.
The shift in the commercial paradigm could potentially give a major new boost to French fighter exports in the years ahead
This approach could have a number of positive effects. Clearly, it will reduce the budgetary burden on the next LPM, which probably explains why the timetable has been revised to keep the budget constant. As Dassault Aviation is the undisputed prime contractor for these partners, it will be possible to apply the same collaboration matrix as that used for the Neuron programme, which produced excellent results.
Finally, it will make it possible to extend the industrial base and orders for new equipment, in particular UAVs and probably new aircraft, and thus ensure the Rafale's industrial activity and durability for the next decade and even beyond.
All that remains now is to extend this approach, which has been discussed many times in articles published on this site, to other programmes, so as to extend potential cooperation southwards, to the greatest benefit of the French defence industry and armed forces. We can only hope that this announcement will, in the months and years to come, develop into a real dynamic that will be extended to other French defence industrial and technological programmes.
If new partners are added, I think this have to be discuss with them before taking any decision. Dassault and France are not LM and US when they take alone their decision on F-35.
I'm not able to make prophecies for after my death.
