MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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What'a your take on having Gripen-E as our MRCA plane? 114 Gripen-E with Meteor is a very good option and much cheaper than Rafale too.
It's in the same class as Tejas mk2, so doesn't make sense to have 2 fighters in the same category. Picking Rafale for MRFA and MRCBF will make logistics management easier, and will make a stronger case for domestic production (114+26+possible 26 more if TEDBF is delayed).
The IAF's goal has been to have two programs, TE MII and SE MII; 200 each. Both have different sets of missions to perform.
The TE MII is MRFA. Whereas SE MII shifted away from a Gripen vs F-16 competition to LCA Mk2. So it doesn't make sense to have two SE MII programs.
Funny how stuff I had claimed years ago are coming true now, but I was called optimistic for it. And some members were claiming as early as last year that MRFA won't happen.
Anyway I've made the same argument for the IN's MRCBF. Rafale is simply a duplicate of TEDBF. The former was necessary for CATOBAR operations, but that need has disappeared for now. So Rafale vs Desi-Rafale for the navy and Gripen vs Desi-Gripen for the air force, those are not good choices.
We also have to remember that the LCA Mk2 has better hardware than the Gripen E, and of course the Astra Mk3 is better specced than the Meteor; longer range, AESA seeker etc. And you can bet a better upgrade path has been designed for LCA given the massive numbers planned.
No. Not much cheaper. And probably not cheaper at all.
You Know in Real life the First one to Come out is called Original.BTW I don't think TED-BLUFF will be ready by 2035-40.
Sensors + Avionics is what will make the most difference.
Any Idea How MK2's Avionics, Sensors will fare against Grippen E?
BTW I don't think TED-BLUFF will be ready by 2035-40.
My meaning is different, because we have already decided on TEDBF. The choice was between a Rafale-design and an AMCA-design, and IN chose the Rafale-design. Both TEDBF and Rafale will be operational for 40-50 years, so even if TEDBF comes in 10 years later, both jets will basically be similarly capable for the next 30 years. And any capability enhancements will be a duplicate of each other, and we will have to pay for the same thing twice.
While the timeline is in favour of the Rafale versus TEDBF, an alternative jet can be found to replace the Rafale M with a similar timeline. That's either the SH or F-35, that come with a bunch of other advantages.
The IAF needs the Rafale, but IN needs American tech; very different operational environment. For the IN, wartime logistics is more important than peacetime logistics. When the IN is fighting PLAN in the Timor or Java Sea, American, Singaporean and Australian logistics centers and supply warehouses will be more important than India which will be thousands of Kms away. And compared to a future IN budget, the small fleet of American jets over a 30/40-year period will be a very minuscule part. The IN's need for superior logistics probably stems from the poor aftersales service record of the Russians, which shouldn't be a problem with the Americans, or the French, so peacetime logistics should not become a primary factor.
Timeline isn't a factor between Gripen E and LCA Mk2, both will be ready around the same time. 2 or 3 years difference doesn't matter over a 40-year timescale.
Radar is probably the same, probably the EW suite as well. But IR sensors are a bit more advanced, 'cause Mk2 uses DC MAWS and IRST. Cockpit should be far more IAF-specific than Gripen E as well. Then we can introduce our own technologies much faster, even during production if necessary, like how Mk1A is getting both Israeli and Indian radars in the middle of production. Doing the same on Gripen will be practically impossible.
Gripen E's future potential is questionable as well due to the small orders and the habit of the Swedes to operate as a single-jet air force. We need a 40-year operation cycle. Meaning, the Swedes could get rid of their jet before 2060, whereas we need it until 2070-80. Otoh, FCAS delays should see the French buying Rafales until the 2040s thereby retiring their jets alongside ours.
In 10-15 years or so, due to sheer size and money power, our technology will be ahead of what the Europeans can produce. So it doesn't make sense to get stuck with another duplicate.
Hope this post clears a bunch of other questions that may pop into your head.
Gripen E has an AESA radar and Meteor. Those are big assets compared to M2000, even if Gripen is not totally mature now.
Compared to Gripen C/D, M2000 is probably (slightly ?) better.
It will take 3-4 months to get AoN from government, RFP will be issued after that.
IAF’s acquisition of 114 fighter jets to be part of a major procurement plan
A mega 500-fighter aircraft acquisition process on the anvil for the armed forces; reaching the sanctioned 42 squadrons will take time and the immediate effort is to arrest the drawdown in strength, says Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari
On the delay in the process, he said they were evaluating how much of Make in India can happen, localisation and capability for them to upgrade the aircraft locally rather than depend on the foreign manufacturer, he said.
Paris tries to convince Abu Dhabi to locate its Rafale offsets in India
The transfer to India of the blocked industrial offset contract for the 80 Emirati Rafale aircraft has been brought to the negotiating table between Dassault Aviation and Tawazun. Paris wants to take advantage of this contract to settle the delays of the French manufacturer in its offset in Delhi. [...]
The transfer to India of the blocked industrial offset contract for the 80 Emirati Rafale aircraft has been brought to the negotiating table between Dassault Aviation and Tawazun. Paris wants to take advantage of this contract to settle the delays of the French manufacturer in its offset in Delhi. [...]
MRFA RfP is unlikely to be decided before 2026, with first aircraft deliveries by around 2030, an IAF official told Shephard.
India's Chief of Air Staff ACM V R Chaudhari said recently. 'Quantity matters when it comes to conflict... We need to maintain a 24/7 air defence capability across India’s airspace, so numbers are important. Given the current state of the air force, it is essential to build up the numbers even if achieving the goal of 42 squadrons appears difficult now.'
India's Chief of Air Staff ACM V R Chaudhari said recently. 'Quantity matters when it comes to conflict... We need to maintain a 24/7 air defence capability across India’s airspace, so numbers are important. Given the current state of the air force, it is essential to build up the numbers even if achieving the goal of 42 squadrons appears difficult now.'
India redoubles efforts to make up fighter squadron shortfall | Shephard
Mindful of the need to defend its border with China, India is evaluating how to overcome a shortfall of 12 fighter aircraft squadrons over the next decade.
www.shephardmedia.com
If these jokers actually put their money where their mouth is then they would've released this RFP by 2017 or 2018 & we'd be in the process of signing the contract this year with first deliveries 3-4 yrs from now .
Perhaps the opposition's attack on the Rafale and its alleged corruptions prevented the signing of a second batch of 36 Rafales that would have allowed the MRFA to be released later.
It could be so but the Supreme Court of India had already acquitted the GoI of any wrongdoing in the matter way back in 2019 just before the general elections that same year IIRC , asking Rahul Gandhi the leader of the principal opposition party to apologise to the court for making wild & baseless allegations which he duly tendered.
So the GoI could well have gone in for a second tranche anytime after that . Why they haven't is a mystery only the IAF , MoD & GoI can explain .
The people signing off the money on Rafale are those who won't be able to tell a Boeing 737 from a Rafale.