MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 28 12.7%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 172 77.8%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 11 5.0%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 7 3.2%

  • Total voters
    221

marich01

Well-Known member
Aug 17, 2022
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I saw in the well known unreliable site that ET tranche 5 is what will be on offer in the MRFA deal, not sure about the ToT part. Given Rafale offer is for Rafale 4 so this is likely true. EFT would be wasting their time by offering tranche 3.
Boeing also pushing hard for F15ex, they also offered it to Indonesia early this year. I will not mind if we make a mix between two, it is very handy to buy 2 squadrons worth F15s, eagle II has very long standoff delivery system. If we get 2 or 3 squadrons and deploy those in Ladakh & east, China will think before full scale attack. Air superiority is our most potent attack. We should not neglect it.
 
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Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
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I saw in the well known unreliable site that ET tranche 5 is what will be on offer in the MRFA deal, not sure about the ToT part. Given Rafale offer is for Rafale 4 so this is likely true. EFT would be wasting their time by offering tranche 3.
Boeing also pushing hard for F15ex, they also offered it to Indonesia early this year. I will not mind if we make a mix between two, it is very handy to buy 2 squadrons worth F15s, eagle II has very long standoff delivery system. If we get 2 or 3 squadrons and deploy those in Ladakh & east, China will think before full scale attack. Air superiority is our most potent attack. We should not neglect it.
Rafale with Meteor is the more potent is air superiority.
F15EX has nothing to offer in AtoA Su30MKI hasn't.
 

Innominate

Senior member
Jun 23, 2021
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Rafale with Meteor is the more potent is air superiority.
F15EX has nothing to offer in AtoA Su30MKI hasn't.
F-15EX better EW and radar. An F-15 also fired aim-120d which outranged the Aim-54 longest test shot of 126 miles which means the aim-120d's range is around 130-140+ miles. Of course air to air missiles will never be fired at maximum range in a real war.
 

marich01

Well-Known member
Aug 17, 2022
816
803
India
Rafale with Meteor is the more potent is air superiority.
F15EX has nothing to offer in AtoA Su30MKI hasn't.

Oh yeah I did not mean from how they work, just that having an US origin good enough jet might make china think twice before actually attacking. They will keep on the provocative close fly, drills, LAC violation etc for years now on, we also scramble our jets. But a combined power of Rafale, Su30 F15 Mirage will be a very good deterrence.
We have enough Su30 , during war its the ammo , accurate missile that matter, not number of planes. So Adding F15 gives you a force multiplier in a way that it has a longer standoff range, payload, probably higher speed & very good A2A ability. We will never match china by numbers, but we can definitely strike fear in them with f15 and rafale taking over sky. This is how US deterred them. For the record, EF typhoon also does that, but F15 might be cheaper.
Third point, we have seen china copied su30 model into their jet, they also have su-35 & S400, so they are used to general characteristics of russian jets mostly. But they lack in the engine & avionics, ie their copy versions are slightly inferior in practical use. This is where we should target, their vulnerability with a far superior jet. I would love that to be AMCA tejas mk2, but both are years/decades away.
So imo we could try something.
We know USA will only induct small number of f15ex. Boeing has free production line so jets will be delivered quicker. They are marketing it in Asia.
We have space for 12 replacement su30 we are short of.
F15ex is 33% cheaper to Rafale, ie for 3 rafales 4 f15ex
So 1 sqn Rafale, 18 jets price wise ~ 24 F15ex + add the 12 su30 numbers, total 36, 2 sqn worth. Make a Gov to Gov deal.
Boeing gets 36 f15ex + 26 SH18 orders.
Much quicker way to increase the falling sqn number & interim quality plus a deadly surprise package for the china Pakistani axis.
Rest MRFA rafale can proceed on its own as do the local super sukhoi program.
 
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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The only fighter from US which can be bought by IAF is F35A. But let the Americans offer it first 😂

Rest platforms are useless for us.
 

marich01

Well-Known member
Aug 17, 2022
816
803
India
F35 by logistics would rather harm AMCA than be of good usage imo. I mean it needs huge backup from very credible jets like super hornet etc to function & use its strengths. I do not think F35 will be on offer against chinese as they also deploy S400. This is a strange situation where both sides got one weapon that USA desperately want to avoid.
My suggestion of f15ex is solely based on 3 factors
1. This is a credible heavy duty jet with really good payload capacity. China will think multiple times before coming up against it. IAF has 12 su30 shortfall ie space for heavy load plane. instead of topping with more Su30 which we got in enough number, why not this?
2. USA more open to give good arms pack + maybe some ToT to deter china now, Boeing also can deliver much quicker timetable compared to rafale. yes eagle II is still not IOC but its based on a proven used design & did very well in trials so far. We have a geopolitical leverage right now we might not get again soon. Best time to utilise this.
3. In terms of economy of scale we can definitely afford it in a G2G deal without harming MRFA prospect much. 2-3 Sqn extra will be very helpful for IAF in my opinion even though IAF do not want to operate USA stuff.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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F-15EX better EW and radar. An F-15 also fired aim-120d which outranged the Aim-54 longest test shot of 126 miles which means the aim-120d's range is around 130-140+ miles. Of course air to air missiles will never be fired at maximum range in a real war.
The upgrade package of the MKI would include an indigenous GaA AESA radar & unified EW / EA suite. Then there's the Astra Mk-2 happening with more or less the same range as AIM -120 if not more.

All these & many more projects related to the MKI are in various stages of development & should see the light of the day in the next couple of years.

Are they as good as the US systems ? Probably not. But they don't need to be too. We're not up against the US. We need to be in a position to exercise absolute superiority over Pakistan & achieve parity over China or surpass them in quality not quantity as the latter is in a different league altogether.

All this translates to - we don't need your 4th Gen / 4.5 Gen / 4.75 Gen platforms as we have the capacity to develop the same in house which we're undertaking.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,780
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Delhi
Rafale with Meteor is the more potent is air superiority.
F15EX has nothing to offer in AtoA Su30MKI hasn't.
Athe f-15EX is more of a ground pounder and the aim 120-d and future aim 260jatm integration would keep it potent in A2A missions. The only problem being its RCS. What f-15EX will bring is the EPAWWS and the access of all American A2G munitions from aargm-er to jassm to agm 158 lot of stuff that could be useful for us.
The only fighter from US which can be bought by IAF is F35A. But let the Americans offer it first 😂

Rest platforms are useless for us.
The IAF seems to like the f-15. And it's the only aircraft that is kind of a hotrod. But even typhoon tranche 5 looks good the only thing is I hope it's the ecrs mk2 that is offered instead of ecrs mk1.
 
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Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
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Oh yeah I did not mean from how they work, just that having an US origin good enough jet might make china think twice before actually attacking. They will keep on the provocative close fly, drills, LAC violation etc for years now on, we also scramble our jets. But a combined power of Rafale, Su30 F15 Mirage will be a very good deterrence.
We have enough Su30 , during war its the ammo , accurate missile that matter, not number of planes. So Adding F15 gives you a force multiplier in a way that it has a longer standoff range, payload, probably higher speed & very good A2A ability. We will never match china by numbers, but we can definitely strike fear in them with f15 and rafale taking over sky. This is how US deterred them. For the record, EF typhoon also does that, but F15 might be cheaper.
Third point, we have seen china copied su30 model into their jet, they also have su-35 & S400, so they are used to general characteristics of russian jets mostly. But they lack in the engine & avionics, ie their copy versions are slightly inferior in practical use. This is where we should target, their vulnerability with a far superior jet. I would love that to be AMCA tejas mk2, but both are years/decades away.
So imo we could try something.
We know USA will only induct small number of f15ex. Boeing has free production line so jets will be delivered quicker. They are marketing it in Asia.
We have space for 12 replacement su30 we are short of.
F15ex is 33% cheaper to Rafale, ie for 3 rafales 4 f15ex
So 1 sqn Rafale, 18 jets price wise ~ 24 F15ex + add the 12 su30 numbers, total 36, 2 sqn worth. Make a Gov to Gov deal.
Boeing gets 36 f15ex + 26 SH18 orders.
Much quicker way to increase the falling sqn number & interim quality plus a deadly surprise package for the china Pakistani axis.
Rest MRFA rafale can proceed on its own as do the local super sukhoi program.
The problem is the f-15EX and Eurofighter typhoon will have higher life cycle costs and will lose out to Rafale on that.
 
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marich01

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Aug 17, 2022
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803
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The problem is the f-15EX and Eurofighter typhoon will have higher life cycle costs and will lose out to Rafale on that.

Yeah that is true, and also why USA themselves do not buy more themselves. We could certainly use the same tactic , citing that during negotiation if IAF buy it then Boeing will definitely get some more sale off our back in Acia pacific & ME region. USA are buying approx 36 in next 2 years. My suggestion was based on the same, just enough to post 2 squadrons along china border, one in Ladakh & one in NE.

Fa7ERA-UcAEXu16.jpg


Buying 36 F15ex would certainly be much more useful for me than topping up with 12 more existing Su30 vacant spots and leasing of any Tu-160 type bombers. We are in the process of Super sukhoi locally. So buying 12 more just to upgrade those again here make little sense. If we are to throw a heavyweight category fighter jet at China why not an altogether different jet that is way more powerful & from a brand new batch? The cost & logistics can be manageable if squadron strength is small enough to manage. Later if we like it, we could increase to 3 or 4 squadrons max. Initially 36 jets deal like the Rafale makes sense to me so the original MRFA can proceed well. Almost 1.5 times rafales payload capacity & better standoff distance firing ability. Very handy against the chinese assets.


Su30 upgrade in full swing.
 
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Bon Plan

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F-15EX better EW and radar. An F-15 also fired aim-120d which outranged the Aim-54 longest test shot of 126 miles which means the aim-120d's range is around 130-140+ miles. Of course air to air missiles will never be fired at maximum range in a real war.
F15EX has also the RCS of a farm door ! (as Su30MKI : a big radar, with big range (specially for the F15 AESA one) but a poor stealth feature)

Never seen a news about this AMRAAM D range. If you have some source, please... (I'm sceptical. Even with a miniaturized electronic case and seeker, and an enlarged and more potent booster engine, how the same enveloppe missile can increase its range in such an extent?)

The max range means nothing, as you say. It was said, some years ago, that the maximum range of Meteor was 300-350km. I have no credible source to give. Is it possible ? I don't know, but any missile fired in a near ballistical with zéro G trajectory may have a very impressive range. But a useless range for an anti air missile.
F15ex is 33% cheaper to Rafale
source please.
 

Innominate

Senior member
Jun 23, 2021
1,668
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F15EX has also the RCS of a farm door ! (as Su30MKI : a big radar, with big range (specially for the F15 AESA one) but a poor stealth feature)

It's barn door... but a very small barn door. Lol. EPAWSS has done a great job at being able to get the F-15EX in range of IADS it also was able to hide F-22 and F-35 during combat exercise. EPAWSS reduces the range an enemy can fire its missile.
Never seen a news about this AMRAAM D range. If you have some source, please... (I'm sceptical. Even with a miniaturized electronic case and seeker, and an enlarged and more potent booster engine, how the same enveloppe missile can increase its range in such an extent?)

The max range means nothing, as you say. It was said, some years ago, that the maximum range of Meteor was 300-350km. I have no credible source to give. Is it possible ? I don't know, but any missile fired in a near ballistical with zéro G trajectory may have a very impressive range. But a useless range for an anti air missile.

source please.

We have also received information pointing to two very long-range AIM-54 Phoenix shots dating from the 1970s. One apparently involved a target drone downed at just over 126 miles after the missile was launched from an F-14A Tomcat. The other, reportedly achieved during a training exercise in Iran, in January 1979, saw an AIM-54 hit a target drone at a range of 132 miles.



And it wasn't an Aim-120D3 it was just the D or they would have said it was the new upgraded D3. The Aim-120D3 first test was on June 30th of this year.
 

marich01

Well-Known member
Aug 17, 2022
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Boeing is 33% cheaper today, but Euro is getting lower theses days so the gap could become much smaller...( 0,9920 US$ for 1€ today )
Yeah it will definitely make things interesting in next 2 years. Already there are some stories that typhoon tranche 5 will be offered in MRFA at some significant less pricing than rafale which is forcing Dassults hands because they are relying on India being an existing consumer & French-Indo relationship to charge higher price. IAF had indicated they only wanted medium weight category planes which ruled out the two Russi jets & gripen altogether. It also possibly rules out f15ex though IAF has started liking the eagle II , EFT consortium expects some strong challenge from Boeing apparently. The exchange rate will certainly be one major influencing factor now.
Given now MMRCA is split into IAF & Navy deals separately, can it split further? ie something like
IAF => 6 sqn under MRFA all Rafale to 4-6 sqn Rafale + ( 2 Sqn F15ex under G2G deal ) depending on money
Navy => 26 F18 SH
2Sqn F15ex will be at least 4.5B plus additional weapon package and IN specific changes costs.
Indonesia 42 rafale & 36 F15 cost 22B
 
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A Person

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Dec 1, 2017
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It was from here, I guess only base cost is calculated

Given we will need full armament the total cost will be high & almost similar to early rafale deal.
That's not an apple-to-apple comparison.
The U.S Department of Defense has quoted the Fly Away unit cost of the F-15EX to be $87.9 million with a $29,000 per hour flying cost but the Vice President of Boeing's fighter division, Steve Parker has said that the price of F-15EX would come below $80 million per unit despite ongoing problems with Supply chains and inflation that have recently driven up prices in the defense industry.
So, first we have a magical price reduction (since they claim to sell it below the fly away unit cost, despite the ongoing inflation trend which would make the cost evolve upwards rather than downwards).
Secondly they're talking about a pure fly away cost.

Conveniently forgetting that the price of the Rafale deal included non-recurring costs such as personnel training, the development of the ISE, or infrastructure construction for 72 aircraft (while only 36 were in the deal, so the next 36 Rafale have their infrastructure already paid for), as well as costs for extras such as weapons and the performance-based logistics package that guarantees availability rates of 75% minimum.

So, 33% cheaper? Yeah, if you look at it through a prism of pure copium.

Here's a point of comparison. The all-inclusive cost for the 36 Rafale to Qatar was 8.3 billion dollars (7 for the first 24, 1.3 for the next 12 -- do note how the repeat order has a cost per aircraft that's only 37% of the cost per aircraft of the initial deal, which shows the importance of non-recurring costs). The all-inclusive cost for the 36 F-15 to Qatar was 12 billions. That's not exactly 33% below the cost for the Qatari Rafale deal, was it? It's more like it's the Rafale deal that was cheaper than the F-15 deal.

Oh, and on that Qatari F-15 deal, the fly away cost -- meaning the amount of the contract that went directly to Boeing, so not counting weapons and stuff provided by other companies -- was 6 billions, 50% of the total cost. That gives you a flyaway cost per aircraft of 167 millions. Sure, India will get it for less than 80 millions, no problems. Wow, such plausible, so belief.
It was from here, I guess only base cost is calculated

Given we will need full armament the total cost will be high & almost similar to early rafale deal.
That's not an apple-to-apple comparison.
The U.S Department of Defense has quoted the Fly Away unit cost of the F-15EX to be $87.9 million with a $29,000 per hour flying cost but the Vice President of Boeing's fighter division, Steve Parker has said that the price of F-15EX would come below $80 million per unit despite ongoing problems with Supply chains and inflation that have recently driven up prices in the defense industry.
So, first we have a magical price reduction (since they claim to sell it below the fly away unit cost, despite the ongoing inflation trend which would make the cost evolve upwards rather than downwards).
Secondly they're talking about a pure fly away cost.

Conveniently forgetting that the price of the Rafale deal included non-recurring costs such as personnel training, the development of the ISE, or infrastructure construction for 72 aircraft (while only 36 were in the deal, so the next 36 Rafale have their infrastructure already paid for), as well as costs for extras such as weapons and the performance-based logistics package that guarantees availability rates of 75% minimum.

So, 33% cheaper? Yeah, if you look at it through a prism of pure copium.

Here's a point of comparison. The all-inclusive cost for the 36 Rafale to Qatar was 8.3 billion dollars (7 for the first 24, 1.3 for the next 12 -- do note how the repeat order has a cost per aircraft that's only 37% of the cost per aircraft of the initial deal, which shows the importance of non-recurring costs). The all-inclusive cost for the 36 F-15 to Qatar was 12 billions. That's not exactly 33% below the cost for the Qatari Rafale deal, was it? It's more like it's the Rafale deal that was cheaper than the F-15 deal.

Oh, and on that Qatari F-15 deal, the fly away cost -- meaning the amount of the contract that went directly to Boeing, so not counting weapons and stuff provided by other companies -- was 6 billions, 50% of the total cost. That gives you a flyaway cost per aircraft of 167 millions. Sure, India will get it for less than 80 millions, no problems. Wow, such plausible, so belief.
 
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TARGET

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Dec 2, 2017
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Here is something of range , Boeing have increased their presence with India MSME so there are advantages


In terms of platform usage, the IAF will not go for F15 until they have SU30 MKI in their inventory, as MKI is a much more potent platform than F15. The IAF had already evaluated the options and decided on Rafale. If the IAF is given the choice to buy a few more squadrons of fighter planes today, they will go for the Rafale. If the F35 is offered at a similar price range, that may complicate the situation, but I still believe they will go for Rafale.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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It's barn door... but a very small barn door. Lol. EPAWSS has done a great job at being able to get the F-15EX in range of IADS it also was able to hide F-22 and F-35 during combat exercise. EPAWSS reduces the range an enemy can fire its missile.


We have also received information pointing to two very long-range AIM-54 Phoenix shots dating from the 1970s. One apparently involved a target drone downed at just over 126 miles after the missile was launched from an F-14A Tomcat. The other, reportedly achieved during a training exercise in Iran, in January 1979, saw an AIM-54 hit a target drone at a range of 132 miles.



And it wasn't an Aim-120D3 it was just the D or they would have said it was the new upgraded D3. The Aim-120D3 first test was on June 30th of this year.
Indeed. Very impressive sweetie.

But if you have a barn door, little or not camouflaging those Raptors & Lightings & very effectively too in your esteemed opinion , instead of the other way around , why exactly did you spend zillions developing those VLO fighter aircrafts.

More importantly why're you still wasting money on developing another such project - the NGAD? Are you telling us the whole goddamned project was one big scam? Is that what you're saying?

Wouldn't your purpose be served by simply building more variants / iterations of the Eagles ?
 
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