MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 27 12.5%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 169 78.2%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.8%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 10 4.6%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 5 2.3%

  • Total voters
    216

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
66
16
India
France knows very well that there are two things that do not work with India. The first is expecting punctuality, the second is attempting blackmail.
Is it so then why PMO has to interfere directly to bring NG on track for scorpene project to complete?
 

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
66
16
India
I never said that either, but I am in a better position than you to know what the French think.
Thats just your perception and you never thought that it may not be reality. Sorry for being rude but try to perceive that India has 90 of your fighters ( even after excluding jaguars), hundreds of french origin helis, 6 of subs & many hundreds engines. Over that many of your defence firms have joint ventures. This is just for defence sector. If I get into other sectors you will forget the counting. I am very well aware of how much CHF are going into french firms from India. I wont even touch the issue of strategic implications which India is providing to France in IOR. You should not have dared to say whatever you said.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,449
4,045
73
France
Thats just your perception and you never thought that it may not be reality. Sorry for being rude but try to perceive that India has 90 of your fighters ( even after excluding jaguars), hundreds of french origin helis, 6 of subs & many hundreds engines. Over that many of your defence firms have joint ventures. This is just for defence sector. If I get into other sectors you will forget the counting. I am very well aware of how much CHF are going into french firms from India. I wont even touch the issue of strategic implications which India is providing to France in IOR. You should not have dared to say whatever you said.
It's not my very perception, it's what I perceive in the French people. You are an important customer for French weapons, like Saudi Arabia or Egypt, but the contract of the century in the minds of the French is no longer you but rather the United Arab Emirates.
 

Arpuism

Member
Dec 17, 2021
66
16
India
It's not my very perception, it's what I perceive in the French people. You are an important customer for French weapons, like Saudi Arabia or Egypt, but the contract of the century in the minds of the French is no longer you but rather the United Arab Emirates.
Common people arent alwayz aware of whats going on at higher levels. Short term deals dnt make strategic partners. These Gulf deals are mere trade balance to offset energy requirements. There are global implications beyond them. You are rational enough to know all these. Views of those in establishment matter more than less aware ones. We were and are there when u needed it most. The relationship is different than mere customers.
My last on this.
 
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Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,753
1,319
Mumbai
First flight of TEDBF is aimed at 2026-27. Induction timelines start from 2032. Considering minimum changes , still 200 hours of flying will be required for a new platform by IAF. That will be around 3 years during testing. Say exponential work happens, then 2035 will be the time when ORCA will be ready for IAF.

Tejas MK2 will be available from 2028-29 if everything is ok. Add the 4 squadrons of Mk1A we are going to get.

Now let's take a look at squadrons which will go.

4 Mig21 squadrons will go out by 2025. 3 Jaguar squadrons which will not be updated will go out by 2028-29. Earliest Mig29UPG will start going out from 2032. Earliest Mirage 2000I will start going out from 2035. The 3 upgraded Jaguars will start going out from 2035.

So if MMRCA doesn't happen. Till 2028 we will have 12 Su30MKI squadrons + 6 Tejas MK1/MK1A + 3 Mirage 2000 + 3 Mig29UPG + 3 Jaguar Darin III + 2 Rafales = 29 squadrons.

From 2032-37 the 9 squadrons of Mig29/Mirage2000/Jaguar will go out. 9 squadrons of Tejas MK2 will likely replace them.

2032 will start seeing the first AMCA Mk1 in service. 2 squadrons wi come by 2035.

Till 2035 we can say we will more or less be at 29, without MMRCA 2.

PAF as of today has 21 combat squadrons. PLAAF regiments across Arunachal in the vicinity hold 250+ combat aircrafts.

PLAAF regiments across Leh hold 100+ combat aircraft. Plus 1 bomber division with 100+ aircrafts including bombers.


ORCA purely due to its timeline is optional, but MMRCA 2 is a requirement. There's a difference between two.
Its just Another 7 years from 2022 to 29. IAF can be forced to wait for another 7 years by goi easily.
It's not my very perception, it's what I perceive in the French people. You are an important customer for French weapons, like Saudi Arabia or Egypt, but the contract of the century in the minds of the French is no longer you but rather the United Arab Emirates.
If i was the french president, i would have withdrawn from the tendering processes by raising my middle finger. Nobody in real life will deal with a customer like india who plays carrot stick game with suppliers.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
3,805
3,672
Bangalore
Its just Another 7 years from 2022 to 29. IAF can be forced to wait for another 7 years by goi easily.

If i was the french president, i would have withdrawn from the tendering processes by raising my middle finger. Nobody in real life will deal with a customer like india who plays carrot stick game with suppliers.
Not just till 2029. Till 2035-37.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,527
10,773
India
First flight of TEDBF is aimed at 2026-27. Induction timelines start from 2032. Considering minimum changes , still 200 hours of flying will be required for a new platform by IAF. That will be around 3 years during testing. Say exponential work happens, then 2035 will be the time when ORCA will be ready for IAF.

Tejas MK2 will be available from 2028-29 if everything is ok. Add the 4 squadrons of Mk1A we are going to get.

Now let's take a look at squadrons which will go.

4 Mig21 squadrons will go out by 2025. 3 Jaguar squadrons which will not be updated will go out by 2028-29. Earliest Mig29UPG will start going out from 2032. Earliest Mirage 2000I will start going out from 2035. The 3 upgraded Jaguars will start going out from 2035.

So if MMRCA doesn't happen. Till 2028 we will have 12 Su30MKI squadrons + 6 Tejas MK1/MK1A + 3 Mirage 2000 + 3 Mig29UPG + 3 Jaguar Darin III + 2 Rafales = 29 squadrons.

From 2032-37 the 9 squadrons of Mig29/Mirage2000/Jaguar will go out. 9 squadrons of Tejas MK2 will likely replace them.

2032 will start seeing the first AMCA Mk1 in service. 2 squadrons wi come by 2035.

Till 2035 we can say we will more or less be at 29, without MMRCA 2.

PAF as of today has 21 combat squadrons. PLAAF regiments across Arunachal in the vicinity hold 250+ combat aircrafts.

PLAAF regiments across Leh hold 100+ combat aircraft. Plus 1 bomber division with 100+ aircrafts including bombers.


ORCA purely due to its timeline is optional, but MMRCA 2 is a requirement. There's a difference between two.

The IAF will pick AMCA Mk1 over ORCA anyway.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,527
10,773
India
Total assets in PLAAFs western theater exceeds 500+ fighter jets, 100+ attack aircrafts and 20+ bombers.

This is the minimum force China will be able to bring to India.

I believe it's half those numbers today. About 250 in all, across the Indian border. Not so sure in 2-3 years though.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
7,462
4,579
Well, I'll keep my president then.

Sir , I read on Twitter about a
Mega Deal being worked on or negotiated

The components are

1 ) 114 Rafale

2 ) Engine Technology deal

3 ) Submarine deal ie G to G deal

4 ) Jaitapur Nuclear reactors.

Now the question is which of these will prove to be a Deal BREAKER
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,449
4,045
73
France
Sir , I read on Twitter about a
Mega Deal being worked on or negotiated

The components are

1 ) 114 Rafale

2 ) Engine Technology deal

3 ) Submarine deal ie G to G deal

4 ) Jaitapur Nuclear reactors.

Now the question is which of these will prove to be a Deal BREAKER

No Sir please.

The question is rather: which of these elements has been in negotiation for less than 10 years.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,584
1,526
India
No Sir please.

The question is rather: which of these elements has been in negotiation for less than 10 years.

There has been no flow of infos like in past .
But since 2 bases are built + ISE we all know another 36 minimum will be bought.

Let's see naval competition, which may be earlier one to be signed.

However since Dassault order book is full at the moment, make in India is the only possibility.

That indicates, deal is not near.
Make in India or purchase from France - both far off.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,527
10,773
India
Because Navy is leading it, IAF will have lot of option s.
Besides we ll also require 4.5 gen aircraft s right?
Amca + Orca = Su 30 replacement?

AMCA can replace the first two or three MKI squadrons, but it cannot replace all of them.

ORCA is not realistic for the IAF's timeframe and most definitely not a replacement for the MKI. The IAF wants jets between 2025 and 2035, ORCA won't be ready anytime before 2035. And MKI's actual replacement is expected well after 2045. It's just stuck in between. And why will the IAF buy ORCA when AMCA will be ready by then?

The MKI's replacement will require far greater capability than what either jet provides. Once AF-NGAD comes into the picture, you will see it for yourself. We can expect it to enter the engineering stage sometime in the mid 2030s and induction after 2045.

It could be a concept, but here's the closest image of what the AF-NGAD could look like:
screen-shot-2021-04-14-at-11-19-15-am-1618424393.jpg


So wide fuselage with small wings (like Su-57's), fully recessed engines and retractable fins. The MKI's replacement will need such features. Perhaps even the cockpit will be removed.
 
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Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,584
1,526
India
AMCA can replace the first two or three MKI squadrons, but it cannot replace all of them.

ORCA is not realistic for the IAF's timeframe and most definitely not a replacement for the MKI. The IAF wants jets between 2025 and 2035, ORCA won't be ready anytime before 2035. And MKI's actual replacement is expected well after 2045. It's just stuck in between. And why will the IAF buy ORCA when AMCA will be ready by then?

The MKI's replacement will require far greater capability than what either jet provides. Once AF-NGAD comes into the picture, you will see it for yourself. We can expect it to enter the engineering stage sometime in the mid 2030s and induction after 2045.

It could be a concept, but here's the closest image of what the AF-NGAD could look like:
View attachment 23698

So wide fuselage with small wings (like Su-57's), fully recessed engines and retractable fins. The MKI's replacement will need such features. Perhaps even the cockpit will be removed.

Maybe we can split Mmrca and allot the later half to ORCA.
72 Rafales ( 36 + 36 ).
72 ( orca + tedbf nos. ? )

Small Tedbf nos won't it become too expensive?