MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 22 11.6%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 152 80.0%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 2.1%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 4 2.1%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 8 4.2%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    190

Picdelamirand-oil

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Finland also seems to be very concerned about this problem with the F-35. The Finnish Air Force is a small air force and they will want to distribute their fighters to multiple air bases rather than one, which would cost enormous amounts of money to build the F-35 related infrastructure at each air base. This will definitely serve as a negative factor in the MX Challenge.
Suomi varautuu satojen miljoonien eurojen rakennustöihin uusien hävittäjien tullessa: rahan käyttökohteet hämärän peitossa - Suomenkuvalehti.fi
In Finland the conditions of the call for tenders mean that almost everyone is eliminated: for example, the F-35 has a cost per flight hour of €45,000, which means that in order to meet the annual cost of ownership limit they can only present 26 aircrafts instead of 64, otherwise they will be eliminated. So they claim that their target is a flight hour at $25,000, but the Finns won't believe them and even then they can only present 48 aircrafts and with very low availability. The Gripen E is not mature enough, the SH F-18 can't last until 2060 because it doesn't have enough autonomy now that the CFTs are not developed, to be extended by the Navy and the Typhoon doesn't scare us. So we believe that the Rafale has won.
 

randomradio

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Finland also seems to be very concerned about this problem with the F-35. The Finnish Air Force is a small air force and they will want to distribute their fighters to multiple air bases rather than one, which would cost enormous amounts of money to build the F-35 related infrastructure at each air base. This will definitely serve as a negative factor in the MX Challenge.
Suomi varautuu satojen miljoonien eurojen rakennustöihin uusien hävittäjien tullessa: rahan käyttökohteet hämärän peitossa - Suomenkuvalehti.fi

That's not a problem. Detachments can be sent out to any base you want to, none of the bases with detachments need ALIS. Plus, based on open source info, the F-35 can operate without ALIS for 30 days.

And this is not just for the F-35 but any aircraft.
In Finland the conditions of the call for tenders mean that almost everyone is eliminated: for example, the F-35 has a cost per flight hour of €45,000, which means that in order to meet the annual cost of ownership limit they can only present 26 aircrafts instead of 64, otherwise they will be eliminated. So they claim that their target is a flight hour at $25,000, but the Finns won't believe them and even then they can only present 48 aircrafts and with very low availability. The Gripen E is not mature enough, the SH F-18 can't last until 2060 because it doesn't have enough autonomy now that the CFTs are not developed, to be extended by the Navy and the Typhoon doesn't scare us. So we believe that the Rafale has won.

If the Finnish tender calls for LCC, then Rafale will win. But if it goes the way it went down in Belgium, then the F-35 will win, no contest.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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That's not a problem. Detachments can be sent out to any base you want to, none of the bases with detachments need ALIS. Plus, based on open source info, the F-35 can operate without ALIS for 30 days.

And this is not just for the F-35 but any aircraft.


If the Finnish tender calls for LCC, then Rafale will win. But if it goes the way it went down in Belgium, then the F-35 will win, no contest.
The Finnish tender asks for acquisition to be less than € 9 Billion and Annual MCO to be less than € 250 million for the fleet.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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The Finnish tender asks for acquisition to be less than € 9 Billion and Annual MCO to be less than € 250 million for the fleet.
The Finnish call for tenders calls for the acquisition to be less than €9 billion and for the annual MCO to be less than €250 million for the fleet. If you propose something that exceeds these limits you are eliminated. So you have to start from 64 aircrafts and if a limit is exceeded you have to reduce the number of aircrafts until you are compliant.
Then the Finns use the fleet that you have defined in a simulation against a threat that is the same for all competitors. In this simulation the aircraft have the characteristics that the Finns have measured. The competitor with the best result in the simulation wins the tender.
So there is not a ranking of plane, there is a ranking of fleet that you can buy with the budget.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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The Finnish tender asks for acquisition to be less than € 9 Billion and Annual MCO to be less than € 250 million for the fleet.
The Finnish call for tenders calls for the acquisition to be less than €9 billion and for the annual MCO to be less than €250 million for the fleet. If you propose something that exceeds these limits you are eliminated. So you have to start from 64 aircrafts and if a limit is exceeded you have to reduce the number of aircrafts until you are compliant.
Then the Finns use the fleet that you have defined in a simulation against a threat that is the same for all competitors. In this simulation the aircraft have the characteristics that the Finns have measured. The competitor with the best result in the simulation wins the tender.
So there is not a ranking of planes but a ranking of Fleet that you can buy with the budget.
And the simulation is a long time one, so availability impact the result as the number of mission you are able to generate each day.
 

randomradio

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The Finnish call for tenders calls for the acquisition to be less than €9 billion and for the annual MCO to be less than €250 million for the fleet. If you propose something that exceeds these limits you are eliminated. So you have to start from 64 aircrafts and if a limit is exceeded you have to reduce the number of aircrafts until you are compliant.
Then the Finns use the fleet that you have defined in a simulation against a threat that is the same for all competitors. In this simulation the aircraft have the characteristics that the Finns have measured. The competitor with the best result in the simulation wins the tender.
So there is not a ranking of planes but a ranking of Fleet that you can buy with the budget.
And the simulation is a long time one, so availability impact the result as the number of mission you are able to generate each day.

It appears they are being thorough. So instead of L1 discovery, they have created a benchmark for L1 and are instead directly looking for T1.

And yeah, everything here gives a significant advantage to the Rafale.

But the problem is how they managed to get the specs needed for the simulation when it comes to the F-35. Majority of its capability is still WIP, so they have to depend on paper specs. And when it comes to paper specs, the F-35 is different from the real one.

I hope some of the results are made public.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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It appears they are being thorough. So instead of L1 discovery, they have created a benchmark for L1 and are instead directly looking for T1.

And yeah, everything here gives a significant advantage to the Rafale.

But the problem is how they managed to get the specs needed for the simulation when it comes to the F-35. Majority of its capability is still WIP, so they have to depend on paper specs. And when it comes to paper specs, the F-35 is different from the real one.

I hope some of the results are made public.
It is not the specifications of the F-35 that count for the Finns, but the measurements that the Finns made when 4 F-35s tried to go to Finland, 2 succeeded and only one was able to take part in the tests.

According to what has filtered through Finnish magazines, the result is not flattering. I don't know if L.M. will be able to cheat this time:

 

randomradio

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It is not the specifications of the F-35 that count for the Finns, but the measurements that the Finns made when 4 F-35s tried to go to Finland, 2 succeeded and only one was able to take part in the tests.

According to what has filtered through Finnish magazines, the result is not flattering. I don't know if L.M. will be able to cheat this time:


Excellent. The report says the HX should be "ready to use and not in product development". This is very good news, which means the only aircraft that can pose a threat to the Rafale is the SH, and the SH doesn't have the same level of avionics. But a major drawback is the F4.2 is also in development, so all the Rafale can show off is the F3R, which gives the SH some fighting chance.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Excellent. The report says the HX should be "ready to use and not in product development". This is very good news, which means the only aircraft that can pose a threat to the Rafale is the SH, and the SH doesn't have the same level of avionics. But a major drawback is the F4.2 is also in development, so all the Rafale can show off is the F3R, which gives the SH some fighting chance.
They have taken F4 in consideration. SH is also in development. For the two it's just evolutions because we were able to show something to be tested.
Gripen E is also a development, Radar 2 is also a development.....
 
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randomradio

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randomradio

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Ah! and after we've sold the Rafale to Indonesia, I'm counting on the Indians to sell it to Vietnam.

After all, we have to contain China.

I wouldn't count on India's help. India will try to push for LCA as a replacement for their fleet of 100+ Mig-21s, either Mk1A or Mk2. So there's likely even going to be a push for an assembly line and a large order.

Although both jets are in different classes, I don't think Vietnam has the budget to pursue both at the same time. Nevertheless Vietnam has two choices: Either go for up to 18 Rafales over the next 2 years and wait for LCA Mk2, or go for LCA Mk1A now and then decide on the Rafale for the future.

The problem is the new F-16 replacement will become a huge threat to the LCA Mk2 and Gripen E/F. So it's likely that India will aggressively push for LCA Mk1A orders before it becomes a reality. Plus Mk1A is much more suitable as a Mig-21 replacement in terms of costs and time frame than the Mk2.
 

randomradio

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It seems they proposed Radar 2 !

So basically you are saying that anything that's going to become available before 2025, the expected delivery date, is being considered as "ready to use".

Then it's easy for LM to fake results using fake prices and fake specs. So the Finns will end up using LM's made up parameters for the simulation, basically paper specs. Even if Dassault protests, LM can easily counter saying that F4.2 simulation also relies on paper specs, plus the fact that it's not even flying today while the F-35 is. And the fake prices can be fixed in future contracts in LM's favour, while the fake specs, tough luck, it will be too late to reverse the decision, the next opportunity will be 40 years later.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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So basically you are saying that anything that's going to become available before 2025, the expected delivery date, is being considered as "ready to use".

Then it's easy for LM to fake results using fake prices and fake specs. So the Finns will end up using LM's made up parameters for the simulation, basically paper specs. Even if Dassault protests, LM can easily counter saying that F4.2 simulation also relies on paper specs, plus the fact that it's not even flying today while the F-35 is. And the fake prices can be fixed in future contracts in LM's favour, while the fake specs, tough luck, it will be too late to reverse the decision, the next opportunity will be 40 years later.
Why do you say that F4.2 is not flying today? In France we are more demanding to say that a programme is up to date than the Anglo-Saxons, but that doesn't mean that we can't show anything or have anything flown. Everything that will be in F4.2 has been developed in PEAs that end with demonstrators that fly, and since F4 was launched there must have been quite a few integrations already achieved. I'm sure that F4 is more advanced than Block 4 of the F-35 and that for example we were able to show the "contact" software defined radios that will ensure F4's connectivity, and the Rafale's ability to be a communication node.
F4.2 is proposed because the Finns have been able to measure the performance of the functions that will be in F4.2. As I said at the beginning, it is not the specifications that count but the measurements that the Finns have made.
It's like the AESA prototype tested in India for MMRCA.
 
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Hydra

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I wouldn't count on India's help. India will try to push for LCA as a replacement for their fleet of 100+ Mig-21s, either Mk1A or Mk2. So there's likely even going to be a push for an assembly line and a large order.

Although both jets are in different classes, I don't think Vietnam has the budget to pursue both at the same time. Nevertheless Vietnam has two choices: Either go for up to 18 Rafales over the next 2 years and wait for LCA Mk2, or go for LCA Mk1A now and then decide on the Rafale for the future.

The problem is the new F-16 replacement will become a huge threat to the LCA Mk2 and Gripen E/F. So it's likely that India will aggressively push for LCA Mk1A orders before it becomes a reality. Plus Mk1A is much more suitable as a Mig-21 replacement in terms of costs and time frame than the Mk2.
Is LCA mk2 even threat to F16 blk 70 or higher models?
I'm sure France's aim is to make the Indonesians lose interest in the KFX.

The issue for the Indonesians is the KFX Phase 1 duplicates the capabilities of the Rafale, so it makes more sense for them to wait for Phase 2 or 3 of KFX, which will come with internal bays and more stealth.

They have a pretty interesting choice to make.
Are you telling KFX blk1 or initial variant is equivalent to presentbday rafale? How our [email protected] or upcoming mk2 stands infront of Rafale F3 & F4 variants?
 
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