Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

[Rajput Lion]

Yes, but it's all relative, not absolute. For example, the Flanker RCS won't drop below the Rafale or LCA. And the same treatment can be applied to other small RCS aircraft and then the relative difference will still stay big.

Yes, we're going to use this new age RAM on all our fighters. As per some sources, it has 90% dB absorption properties. While none would be true stealth, but if we can drop radar detection even by 50%, it would enhance survivability of all our fighters IMO.

Another problem is the added expense, higher maintenance requirements, addition to weight, increased drag and so on. So it depends on how much the IAF will sacrifice in terms of performance to get other benefits when they don't even want slightly larger holes on the MKI for MAWS.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1182705.shtml

This RAM is supposed to use just as external paint with ease of maintenance. As the report said, IAF is impressed with its usage on Mig-29UPG. So nothing like drilling holes on frame.

That's physically impossible. It would require a significant redesign, like the F-15 Silent Eagle. Meaning it can't be applied on existing aircraft.

Two straight tales would spike RCS from side angle. Russians want to drop frontal RCS by using a radar blocker and other stuff. They're not going to make Su-35SM all-aspect VLO like Su-57, but just more difficult to detect/track from frontal aspect(LO/RO) to give it BVR advantage.

As long as those vertical fins exist, it's impossible. And unlike more modern jets, both Flankers and Eagles have all metal fins.

Don't trust the Russian sources for now, they are trying to market their Flankers due to the delays in Su-57 and the coming end of their export business. It's also why Putin has been pushing for large defense deals with China. They are doing what Boeing did a decade ago with the Silent Eagle, just hype.

Another thing about the J-16 is it's a relatively new design compared to the MKI. It's not completely an all-metal aircraft. More importantly, it's gonna work in tandem with the J-20, like what the Americans are doing with the F-22 and F-15EX combo. We don't have that option. So what the other two are doing don't apply to us at this time. We were supposed to be using the FGFA alongside the MKI from this year onwards to create the same effect. We now have to do what the French and Swedes are doing, but with significantly fewer jets compared to requirements. Our goal over the last 2 decades has disappeared, and we have pushed it back by nearly 15 years now.

The IAF currently is just trying to maintain the country's morale by blatantly lying while the IA is creating alternative capabilities to bridge the gap, a condition where the IAF can possibly become toothless. So the prognosis for the next 10 years is not good.

If we use this particular RAM on vertical tail too, even side RCS would significantly reduce. But point is to reduce frontal RCS to delay detection/tracking as long as possible for BVR combat. For penetrating mission, we would use Rafale now and the combo of AMCA and Ghatak in future.

 

[randomradio]

Yes, we're going to use this new age RAM on all our fighters. As per some sources, it has 90% dB absorption properties. While none would be true stealth, but if we can drop radar detection even by 50%, it would enhance survivability of all our fighters IMO.

This RAM is supposed to use just as external paint with ease of maintenance. As the report said, IAF is impressed with its usage on Mig-29UPG. So nothing like drilling holes on frame.

Applying RAM is fine, but changing the airframe's base design is not. And just applying RAM won't do much. It will definitely be helpful in reducing some RCS, but it won't magically make it competitive with stealth jets.

Take the J-20 against the USN for example. The USN claims only the F-35 is able to keep up. So the SH is a magnitude or two better than the Flanker and is still not good enough.

Two straight tales would spike RCS from side angle. Russians want to drop frontal RCS by using a radar blocker and other stuff. They're not going to make Su-35SM all-aspect VLO like Su-57, but just more difficult to detect/track from frontal aspect(LO/RO) to give it BVR advantage.

What's special about the Flanker design is not only are the twin fins visible from the front, but even the engine heat is visible from the front.

This is also the reason why the US did not bother to reduce the F-15EX's RCS much either, and their design is definitely more than two decades ahead of the MKI. So, even more than 2 decades later, the F-15 is still detectable beyond 150 km.

If we use this particular RAM on vertical tail too, even side RCS would significantly reduce. But point is to reduce frontal RCS to delay detection/tracking as long as possible for BVR combat. For penetrating mission, we would use Rafale now and the combo of AMCA and Ghatak in future.

No, the point of RAM is to reduce the intensity of hotspots. You can somewhat reduce RCS with this new coating, but it's only relative to what it used to be, it won't give the MKI stealth.

 

[lcafanboy]

This is also the reason why the US did not bother to reduce the F-15EX's RCS much either, and their design is definitely more than two decades ahead of the MKI. So, even more than 2 decades later, the F-15 is still detectable beyond 150 km.

Bulldozers don't need stealth. SU-30MKIs and F-15s are bulldozers of a fighter planes they can literally tear apart any Air defense and any fighter plane with their shear power, be it electronic warfare, kinematics, very long range weapons like Brahmos for stand off attack and very long range Air to Air missiles, they also have huge radars with larger numbers of TRMs and more electrical power to Power these radars and all types of jammers and EW suit.

It will be very difficult to bring down a F-15 or SU-30MKI in actual Air battle, so they don't rely on stealth but on shear power they have....

 

[Ashwin]

Bulldozers don't need stealth. SU-30MKIs and F-15s are bulldozers of a fighter planes they can literally tear apart any Air defense and any fighter plane with their shear power, be it electronic warfare, kinematics, very long range weapons like Brahmos for stand off attack and very long range Air to Air missiles, they also have huge radars with larger numbers of TRMs and more electrical power to Power these radars and all types of jammers and EW suit.

It will be very difficult to bring down a F-15 or SU-30MKI in actual Air battle, so they don't rely on stealth but on shear power they have....

Whatever you mean by bulldozers, it's the easiest kill for a VLO fighter. First lock -> shoot -> escape.

If you turn on radar it just makes everything way easier for others. It's like a tube light in the dark. Everyone sees you. Easy to shoot from afar and escape.

I don't think you full really understand how jammers work. It doesn't fix anything in this situation.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Applying RAM is fine, but changing the airframe's base design is not. And just applying RAM won't do much. It will definitely be helpful in reducing some RCS, but it won't magically make it competitive with stealth jets.

J-16 is also not designed for stealth just like MKI. Both have the same basic Flanker planform. If as per PLAAF official, just applying next-gen RAM all-across the airframe provides it with "partial stealth", then we can do the same with MKI. That's my whole point.

Take the J-20 against the USN for example. The USN claims only the F-35 is able to keep up. So the SH is a magnitude or two better than the Flanker and is still not good enough.

SH with IRST-21 should be able to fight VLO adversaries albeit not like Raptor or Lightning II.

What's special about the Flanker design is not only are the twin fins visible from the front, but even the engine heat is visible from the front.

Front is not a problem, but since they're straight and not canted, they become RCS hotspots from side aspect. Engine heat is a whole different discussion and has nothing to do with radar detection.

This is also the reason why the US did not bother to reduce the F-15EX's RCS much either, and their design is definitely more than two decades ahead of the MKI. So, even more than 2 decades later, the F-15 is still detectable beyond 150 km.

MKI's base RCS is much lower than its predecessor. I think it's better than F-15. Plus, it's not that US has given up on their 4th gen fighter RCS reduction. Look at their 'Have Glass' program. They brough RCS of F-16 from 5m2 to 1.2m2 just using RAM paint and that was many years ago. Now with latest 'Have Glass' RAM, it would be much lower.

Of course, these 4th gen fighters won't become proper stealth, but the more the reduction, the better it's for their survivability.

No, the point of RAM is to reduce the intensity of hotspots. You can somewhat reduce RCS with this new coating, but it's only relative to what it used to be, it won't give the MKI stealth.

Addressed above.

Bulldozers don't need stealth. SU-30MKIs and F-15s are bulldozers of a fighter planes they can literally tear apart any Air defense and any fighter plane with their shear power, be it electronic warfare, kinematics, very long range weapons like Brahmos for stand off attack and very long range Air to Air missiles, they also have huge radars with larger numbers of TRMs and more electrical power to Power these radars and all types of jammers and EW suit.

It will be very difficult to bring down a F-15 or SU-30MKI in actual Air battle, so they don't rely on stealth but on shear power they have....

Lower RCS has now become very important in modern aerial warfare. With next gen RAM, we shall reduce RCS of all our 4th/4.5 gen fighters. It most definitely will boost their survivability.

Whatever you mean by bulldozers, it's the easiest kill for a VLO fighter. First lock -> shoot -> escape.

If you turn on radar it just makes everything way easier for others. It's like a tube light in the dark. Everyone sees you. Easy to shoot from afar and escape.

I don't think you full really understand how jammers work. It doesn't fix anything in this situation.

Good ECM/EW shall disrupt the first look >shoot> kill chain. You may have the first look but you can't kill something without proper radar track.

Secondly, good interferometric based ESM shall easily geo-locate the emitter. So, in a hypothetical one on one, if a J-20 or F-22 emit, MKI with Dhruti/Rafale with SPECTRA should know of its presence.

But of course, in real world aerial combat scenario, VLO fighters will maintain total radar silence and get targeting data from AWACS or other friendly non-VLO fighters. So stealth fighters most definitely have advantage over non-stealth one.

 

[randomradio]

Bulldozers don't need stealth. SU-30MKIs and F-15s are bulldozers of a fighter planes they can literally tear apart any Air defense and any fighter plane with their shear power, be it electronic warfare, kinematics, very long range weapons like Brahmos for stand off attack and very long range Air to Air missiles, they also have huge radars with larger numbers of TRMs and more electrical power to Power these radars and all types of jammers and EW suit.

It will be very difficult to bring down a F-15 or SU-30MKI in actual Air battle, so they don't rely on stealth but on shear power they have....

Aircraft like the F-22 and J-20 have all those features and more, and they cannot be seen easily at the same time.

Here are some examples.

Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag

"Undercover" is an understatement for the F-22A Raptor. A point clearly illustrated by pilots of the 94th Fighter Squadron, who delivered an aerial sucker punch to the seasoned Red Force opponents

www.acc.af.mil

- When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

Imagine that, the pilot can't cue a weapons system on the F-22 even though he can see it visually. It's because the radar can't see the F-22 even in a dogfight.

- From the cockpit of the F-22, Capt. Brian Budde, 94th FS pilot, explained the F-22 is able to sustain more than nine Gs for much longer than the F-15, without running out of airspeed. From the pilot's perspective, the F-22 "is more power than you know what to do with," said Captain Budde. So much power, in fact, the F-22 enjoys capabilities alien to legacy fighters.

The fact that it can sustain 9G for longer than the F-15 while delivering more power at the same time means the Flanker will also face the same disadvantage. And the F-15 has far more power.

- "I've been to Red Flag before as an F-15 crew chief," said Senior Airman Ryan Thomas, 94th Aircraft Maintenance Unit F-22 crew chief, "and it's fast-paced and full of long hours - 12 plus hours every day."

Not this time. For maintenance Airmen at Red Flag this year, shifts have eased back to less than nine hours a day. The reason: F-22 airframes are more "friendly."

Very important factor, the ability to put the jet back up in the air after a mission. The F-22 beats the F-15 which in turn beats the MKI.

Basically, what it means is the newer jets beat the older jets in every single category there is by a wide margin. So mere upgrades won't cut it.

 

[randomradio]

J-16 is also not designed for stealth just like MKI. Both have the same basic Flanker planform. If as per PLAAF official, just applying next-gen RAM all-across the airframe provides it with "partial stealth", then we can do the same with MKI. That's my whole point.

SH with IRST-21 should be able to fight VLO adversaries albeit not like Raptor or Lightning II.

Front is not a problem, but since they're straight and not canted, they become RCS hotspots from side aspect. Engine heat is a whole different discussion and has nothing to do with radar detection.

MKI's base RCS is much lower than its predecessor. I think it's better than F-15. Plus, it's not that US has given up on their 4th gen fighter RCS reduction. Look at their 'Have Glass' program. They brough RCS of F-16 from 5m2 to 1.2m2 just using RAM paint and that was many years ago. Now with latest 'Have Glass' RAM, it would be much lower.

Of course, these 4th gen fighters won't become proper stealth, but the more the reduction, the better it's for their survivability.

Addressed above.

Lower RCS has now become very important in modern aerial warfare. With next gen RAM, we shall reduce RCS of all our 4th/4.5 gen fighters. It most definitely will boost their survivability.

Good ECM/EW shall disrupt the first look >shoot> kill chain. You may have the first look but you can't kill something without proper radar track.

Secondly, good interferometric based ESM shall easily geo-locate the emitter. So, in a hypothetical one on one, if a J-20 or F-22 emit, MKI with Dhruti/Rafale with SPECTRA should know of its presence.

But of course, in real world aerial combat scenario, VLO fighters will maintain total radar silence and get targeting data from AWACS or other friendly non-VLO fighters. So stealth fighters most definitely have advantage over non-stealth one.

It doesn't matter how much RAM you coat it with, the MKI cannot become competitive with an actual stealth jet with solely that. The entire design has to be changed from the ground up.

Even RCS, the old Flanker RCS is 15-20m2 without RAM, it's 3-4m2 with RAM, the same as what the MKI is today. The Su-35 improves that to 1-2m2. And reducing RCS by 90% is not enough, you need to reduce by 9000% to compete with stealth jets. Rafale as well was designed ground up for active cancellation and still only drops RCS by 10-100 times, whereas the F-22 is still possibly 100 times smaller than the Rafale with AC.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It doesn't matter how much RAM you coat it with, the MKI cannot become competitive with an actual stealth jet with solely that. The entire design has to be changed from the ground up.

Even RCS, the old Flanker RCS is 15-20m2 without RAM, it's 3-4m2 with RAM, the same as what the MKI is today. The Su-35 improves that to 1-2m2. And reducing RCS by 90% is not enough, you need to reduce by 9000% to compete with stealth jets. Rafale as well was designed ground up for active cancellation and still only drops RCS by 10-100 times, whereas the F-22 is still possibly 100 times smaller than the Rafale with AC.

Actually it's 90% absorption of RF waves. The point is not to make it full on VLO but reduce it to a level where frontal detection is reduced drastically.

Apparently, IAF sources were happy with what was done with Mig-29UPG.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Actually it's 90% absorption of RF waves. The point is not to make it full on VLO but reduce it to a level where frontal detection is reduced drastically.

Apparently, IAF sources were happy with what was done with Mig-29UPG.

Quoting my own post just to post official screenshot and DRDO link about this RAM paint developed by DRDO Jodhpur lab:

Link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...YQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0k1Zf16W_dSng4gTnNk6sw

It's very obvious that if DRDO claims regarding more than 90%() microwave absorption(in X-band, I assume), then it's nothing short of game-changing, IMO. @marich01 what say?

 

[marich01]

Chandigarh: Air Marshal Vibhas Pande, IAF Maintenance Command chief, says, "For Sukhoi 30, our dependency is on HAL. For MiG-29, we have done a lot of indigenisation. The Russia-Ukraine conflict had no impact on the MiG-29 operation. For Su-30, I would also like to say that, with the support of HAL, we have been able to sustain the fleet very well. It has not affected our operation so far. But if the conflict continues for a long time, then it may have some effect... You'll be happy to know that the update program of the MiG-29 has been completed without complete supply by the Russian side."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1730550130221494389

 

[marich01]

More on mig29 with rampage and new launcher

https://twitter.com/x/status/1730590748524134418

 

[Rajput Lion]

Chandigarh: Air Marshal Vibhas Pande, IAF Maintenance Command chief, says, "For Sukhoi 30, our dependency is on HAL. For MiG-29, we have done a lot of indigenisation. The Russia-Ukraine conflict had no impact on the MiG-29 operation. For Su-30, I would also like to say that, with the support of HAL, we have been able to sustain the fleet very well. It has not affected our operation so far. But if the conflict continues for a long time, then it may have some effect... You'll be happy to know that the update program of the MiG-29 has been completed without complete supply by the Russian side."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1730550130221494389

With MKI upgrade, our dependency on Russia to sustain MKI fleet(during a long conflict) shall further reduce. That's why UPG. upgrade is vital for MKI just like it was/is for Mig-29.

 

[Sathya]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1732802517019599118?s=20

@Rajput Lion reliable info?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1732802517019599118?s=20

@Rajput Lion reliable info?

Couldn't find the document but found the list.

 

[Sathya]

Couldn't find the document but found the list.

What are doing?
Are we simply indigenously making components of FBW or

Twiddling with Flight control system? By Making use of Tejas FCS?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

What are doing?
Are we simply indigenously making components of FBW or

Twiddling with Flight control system? By Making use of Tejas FCS?

I don't have much idea as of now. Maybe once the tenders are opened, some news will trickle in.

 

[randomradio]

Couldn't find the document but found the list.

We seems to be going nuts about full-scale indigenization. Which means the MKI also gets an Indian one.

 

[Rajput Lion]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1732802517019599118?s=20

@Rajput Lion reliable info?

Looks like so. This is why Rafale should win MRFA as Dassault is willing to allow us to tinker with their planes just like Russians.

We seems to be going nuts about full-scale indigenization. Which means the MKI also gets an Indian one.

Last I heard, HAL was looking to develop new FBW with help of Sukhoi. This could have been the only contribution of Russians in our MLU program. But as per the recent reports of HAL not caring about IPR and this news of desi FBW for M-2000, even my guess is that we may go for indigenous FBW for MKI MLU.

Damn, that would mean MKI MLU/UPG. becomes a full-on Indian plane. Impressive, if we can pull it off.

 

[randomradio]

Looks like so. This is why Rafale should win MRFA as Dassault is willing to allow us to tinker with their planes just like Russians.

Last I heard, HAL was looking to develop new FBW with help of Sukhoi. This could have been the only contribution of Russians in our MLU program. But as per the recent reports of HAL not caring about IPR and this news of desi FBW for M-2000, even my guess is that we may go for indigenous FBW for MKI MLU.

Damn, that would mean MKI MLU/UPG. becomes a full-on Indian plane. Impressive, if we can pull it off.

If we are not concerned about IPR, it would mean we are willing to import some things.

 

[Rajput Lion]

If we are not concerned about IPR, it would mean we are willing to import some things.

Yeah import Su-57E, lol

We're looking to integrate Meteor/i-Derby ER and ASRAAM to MKI, but Russians as usual are opposing. With our desi AESA radar, Meteor is definitely coming as it was already IAF's original plan.