Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

[Rajput Lion]

The problem is the MKI's RCS is still too big, and every single charateristic on the J-20 is superior to the MKI in every way. Big radar and decent IRST, but will still be detected and shot at first, so the MKI will always be in the defensive. And by the time we are expected to fight each other, the MKI will be even older, and the Chinese will be inducting thier 6th gen by then.

The F-16 is slightly better but has the same problem. Only LCA Mk2 will be a better bet against stealth. Rafale of course. Base RCS has to be less than 1m2.

I'd actually like to see the Taiwanese operating the F-35B instead of Rafale. But the only way they will get them is if they announce independence. Another fear is spies leaking secrets to China.

Doesn't matter whether you're Rafale or MK2 or MKI, until and unless you are VLO, stealth fighters will always have first look advantage.

MKI upgrade will have GaN based EW specifically to tackle this problem. J-20 or PLAAF AWACS will detect MKI first but until they have quantum or photonics based radar, MKI UPG's GaN based ECM will deny them(their GaAs/GaN based AESA FCR) weapons grade track until they are in its IRST range. That way it would be able to fight J-20.

Talking about RCS, Russians were able to reduce frontal clean RCS of Su-35S to 0.7m2-1m2 from Su-27's 6m2. So, with our new gen RAM and RAS, MKI UPG. shall have even lower RCS, so it may meet or even exceed your minimum 1m2 base RCS criteria post upgrade.

Problem for Taiwanese Air Force is not only early detection of J-20, but even if they do using IRST-21, it would be PL-15. Their AMRAAM falls way short of PL-15 as does MICA. Meteor is currently the only missile that can outrange PL-15. If you're F-35 then even AIM-120C7/8/D all work because of its own low RCS, but M-2000 and F-16 don't have that option, IMO.

 

[Tatvamasi]

but until they have quantum or photonics based radar

 

[randomradio]

Doesn't matter whether you're Rafale or MK2 or MKI, until and unless you are VLO, stealth fighters will always have first look advantage.

MKI upgrade will have GaN based EW specifically to tackle this problem. J-20 or PLAAF AWACS will detect MKI first but until they have quantum or photonics based radar, MKI UPG's GaN based ECM will deny them(their GaAs/GaN based AESA FCR) weapons grade track until they are in its IRST range. That way it would be able to fight J-20.

Talking about RCS, Russians were able to reduce frontal clean RCS of Su-35S to 0.7m2-1m2 from Su-27's 6m2. So, with our new gen RAM and RAS, MKI UPG. shall have even lower RCS, so it may meet or even exceed your minimum 1m2 base RCS criteria post upgrade.

Problem for Taiwanese Air Force is not only early detection of J-20, but even if they do using IRST-21, it would be PL-15. Their AMRAAM falls way short of PL-15 as does MICA. Meteor is currently the only missile that can outrange PL-15. If you're F-35 then even AIM-120C7/8/D all work because of its own low RCS, but M-2000 and F-16 don't have that option, IMO.

Su-35S' RCS is 2-3m2, and MKI's is 3-4m2, thanks to canards. It's unlikely to go any lower.

Anyway--

No contest. Inferior performance, inferior radar and heat signatures, inferior logistics, and avionics cannot compensate for the massive differences.

GaN isn't what you think it is. It's mainly necessary for spectrum management, but the way it works is pretty much the same as older radars. It still requires a minimum amount of returns for successful detection, and you can't make use of it very well if the enemy has first look and first shot. The J-20 will constantly break the MKI formations without a response.

The idea behind aircraft like the Rafale and LCA is, their base RCS is low enough for active cancellation to work, which means they will survive long enough to make use of their avionics. The MKI isn't in the same boat. Your base RCS must be way below 1m2 so that with weapons it's still is below 1m2. The MKI's base RCS is so high that you can see it from 200Km away even without weapons. GaN EW cannot compensate for that.

And performance is so important that during Balakot, the MKI's high acceleration is what prevented the F-16s from coming into India. Against the J-20, that acceleration advantage doesn't exist. And given it's a more modern design, the J-20 will naturally have superior avionics.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Su-35S' RCS is 2-3m2, and MKI's is 3-4m2, thanks to canards. It's unlikely to go any lower.

Anyway--

View attachment 30912

No contest. Inferior performance, inferior radar and heat signatures, inferior logistics, and avionics cannot compensate for the massive differences.

GaN isn't what you think it is. It's mainly necessary for spectrum management, but the way it works is pretty much the same as older radars. It still requires a minimum amount of returns for successful detection, and you can't make use of it very well if the enemy has first look and first shot. The J-20 will constantly break the MKI formations without a response.

The idea behind aircraft like the Rafale and LCA is, their base RCS is low enough for active cancellation to work, which means they will survive long enough to make use of their avionics. The MKI isn't in the same boat. Your base RCS must be way below 1m2 so that with weapons it's still is below 1m2. The MKI's base RCS is so high that you can see it from 200Km away even without weapons. GaN EW cannot compensate for that.

And performance is so important that during Balakot, the MKI's high acceleration is what prevented the F-16s from coming into India. Against the J-20, that acceleration advantage doesn't exist. And given it's a more modern design, the J-20 will naturally have superior avionics.

How will J-20 track MKI if MKI's GaN pods create directional pencil beam signal to choke its FCR? With Dhruti now and in future Super Dhruti(1GHz-40GHz), MKI will have formidable ESM and would be able to pin-point any hostile RF waves no matter how discreet(LPI) from far away. And then that's where those two massive wing-tip ASPJ/HBJs come into picture.

You can't kill something that you can't track. Even Dr. Das alluded to that in the aero India video posted by Ashwin. Plus, our next gen HBJs may also possess ACT, who knows?

 

[randomradio]

How will J-20 track MKI if MKI's GaN pods create directional pencil beam signal to choke its FCR? With Dhruti now and in future Super Dhruti(1GHz-40GHz), MKI will have formidable ESM and would be able to pin-point any hostile RF waves no matter how discreet(LPI) from far away. And then that's where those two massive wing-tip ASPJ/HBJs come into picture.

You can't kill something that you can't track. Even Dr. Das alluded to that in the aero India video posted by Ashwin. Plus, our next gen HBJs may also possess ACT, who knows?

EW doesn't make something invisible. It only makes it harder to track. Like if an MKI is being tracked at 200Km, EW will ensure the radar can't tell if the MKI is at 180Km or 220Km, this will make the missile miss. Or it can make it look like there are more MKIs in the air, so you end up tracking the wrong target. That's about it. But the J-20 will know there's an MKI in the air. So any shot fired will force the MKI to disengage, even if the missile is gonna miss. But the problem is the J-20's RCS is so small that it will be able to sneak much further in before taking a shot, so the MKI won't have time to react. And the J-20 that's making the kill will be passive only, so the MKI won't see it coming. It will only see the missile launch, considering the MKI is finally fitted with MAWS.

EW is not stealth. You are just making a lot of noise, that's announcing your presence in the air. And there's no difference in the pencil beam signal between GaAs and GaN, it entirely depends on the size of the array and number of TRMs, not the material it's made of.

EW suites are also reactionary, they can only react to the enemy's actions. So if the enemy has a GaAs radar and you have a GaN suite, then the GaN doesn't give you much of an advantage. But if the enemy has a GaN radar and you have a GaAs suite, then your suite is useless. That's about it. So the GaN EW suite on our jets is only to cater to the time when the enemy equips itself with GaN radars. It has much greater use against ground radars.

And ACT requires very low base RCS in the first place. It can't hide the MKI. The logic is simple. If the MKI can be tracked at 200Km, then Rafale can be tracked at 50Km with the same radar, and ACT will further reduce that by half to 25Km. That will ensure its survivability against the J-20. The MKI can't do that.

 

[Rajput Lion]

EW doesn't make something invisible. It only makes it harder to track. Like if an MKI is being tracked at 200Km, EW will ensure the radar can't tell if the MKI is at 180Km or 220Km, this will make the missile miss. Or it can make it look like there are more MKIs in the air, so you end up tracking the wrong target. That's about it. But the J-20 will know there's an MKI in the air. So any shot fired will force the MKI to disengage, even if the missile is gonna miss. But the problem is the J-20's RCS is so small that it will be able to sneak much further in before taking a shot, so the MKI won't have time to react. And the J-20 that's making the kill will be passive only, so the MKI won't see it coming. It will only see the missile launch, considering the MKI is finally fitted with MAWS.

EW is not stealth. You are just making a lot of noise, that's announcing your presence in the air. And there's no difference in the pencil beam signal between GaAs and GaN, it entirely depends on the size of the array and number of TRMs, not the material it's made of.

EW suites are also reactionary, they can only react to the enemy's actions. So if the enemy has a GaAs radar and you have a GaN suite, then the GaN doesn't give you much of an advantage. But if the enemy has a GaN radar and you have a GaAs suite, then your suite is useless. That's about it. So the GaN EW suite on our jets is only to cater to the time when the enemy equips itself with GaN radars. It has much greater use against ground radars.

And ACT requires very low base RCS in the first place. It can't hide the MKI. The logic is simple. If the MKI can be tracked at 200Km, then Rafale can be tracked at 50Km with the same radar, and ACT will further reduce that by half to 25Km. That will ensure its survivability against the J-20. The MKI can't do that.

Let's say that MKI's RCS with 6 BVR missiles head on is 3m2 and Rafale/MK2 have 0.5m2 with same weapons load and no external fuel tanks(very unlikely though). So, if MKI is detected at around 200kms, then Rafale/MK2 would be around 130kms by the same radar. That's definitely an advantage. But not so much overwhelming that it shifts air warfare. Plus, with new age RAM we would further reduce its RCS. So the gap will narrow.

Here at 2:12 narrow high power direction beams by new gen SPJ pods choking hostile airborne and ground based emitters simultaneously is shown:

MKI GaN based dual pods are going to be lot more effective in doing all of the above. Dr. Das said the same during Aero India and I believe him. If MKI can choke J-20's FCR, it can put it in its QWIP IRST's range before J-20 achieves burn through allowing MKI to effectively engage it.


Anyways, this discussion is OT here as Taiwan hasn't got MKI to fight against China like we do. Upgraded MKI is going to be our most potent Air to Air fighter until AMCA MK2 takes that crown from it. We disagree on this topic. It's fine, let's just move on

 

[randomradio]

Let's say that MKI's RCS with 6 BVR missiles head on is 3m2 and Rafale/MK2 have 0.5m2 with same weapons load and no external fuel tanks(very unlikely though). So, if MKI is detected at around 200kms, then Rafale/MK2 would be around 130kms by the same radar. That's definitely an advantage. But not so much overwhelming that it shifts air warfare. Plus, with new age RAM we would further reduce its RCS. So the gap will narrow.

3m2 is MKI's standard RCS, but Rafale's RCS is 0.01-0.001m2 with ACT.

Here at 2:12 narrow high power direction beams by new gen SPJ pods choking hostile airborne and ground based emitters simultaneously is shown:

MKI GaN based dual pods are going to be lot more effective in doing all of the above. Dr. Das said the same during Aero India and I believe him. If MKI can choke J-20's FCR, it can put it in its QWIP IRST's range before J-20 achieves burn through allowing MKI to effectively engage it.

As I said, that's not how EW works.

There's a reason why the F-22 has a 104-0 kill ratio against the F-15. An AESA radar and AESA EW suite can't bridge that gap. And the F-22 is not even capable of electronic attack.

 

[Ashwin]

UPG in North East

 

[Lolwa]

There's a reason why the F-22 has a 104-0 kill ratio against the F-15.

That's the f-15's kill ratio in modern battlefield. And APG 77v2 most likely has electronic attack capabilities considering its using the same tech as f-35

 

[randomradio]

That's the f-15's kill ratio in modern battlefield.

No, there was a test conducted with the F-22.

The F-15's is much more like 100+ victories, no defeats. It's derived from numerous battles.

And APG 77v2 most likely has electronic attack capabilities considering its using the same tech as f-35

APG-77 doesn't. It's gonna come with a new GaN radar.

 

[Ashwin]

Mirage-2000 at Aero India 1996​

 

[marich01]

Could not find where to post

DRDO’s Defence Laboratory, Jodhpur has developed a Radar Absorbing Paint for being applied on its own fighter aircraft and other platforms to help in reducing its radar signature and also reduce the detection capability of the enemy radars. The DL team led by Dr Nagarajan told ANI they have used the paint on Indian Air Force’s platforms including the MiG-29 fighter jets and the results have been very encouraging. They said such paints are available in other advanced countries but they do not share such items.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1726112159250477278

 

[Rajput Lion]

Could not find where to post

DRDO’s Defence Laboratory, Jodhpur has developed a Radar Absorbing Paint for being applied on its own fighter aircraft and other platforms to help in reducing its radar signature and also reduce the detection capability of the enemy radars. The DL team led by Dr Nagarajan told ANI they have used the paint on Indian Air Force’s platforms including the MiG-29 fighter jets and the results have been very encouraging. They said such paints are available in other advanced countries but they do not share such items.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1726112159250477278

@randomradio, remember our last discussion on this topic We are going to make MKI UPG. LO using even more advance RAM paints than what is available now, IMO.

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio, remember our last discussion on this topic We are going to make MKI UPG. LO using even more advance RAM paints than what is available now, IMO.

Yeah, it's pretty old. They mainly use it to treat the inlets and engine fan. It's not LO.

For LO, you need to be below 0.01m2.

 

[Ashwin]

@randomradio, remember our last discussion on this topic We are going to make MKI UPG. LO using even more advance RAM paints than what is available now, IMO.

Not even close.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Yeah, it's pretty old. They mainly use it to treat the inlets and engine fan. It's not LO.

No. The quote posted by @marich01 is talking about next gen RAM that we've indigenously developed. This has far more -dB absorption than previous paints. And what's interesting is that far better stuff is planned for future.

For LO, you need to be below 0.01m2.

Yes, between -20dBsm to -10dBsm. -10dBsm to 1dBsm is RO territory. Plan is to make MKI UPG. go to that level with next gen RAM. Better and next gen RAM on exposed engine blades/inlet is good enough to drop it several magnitudes from now.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Not even close.

Russians dropped RCS of fully armed Su-27 from 12m2 to 4m2 by using RAM paint on inlet/compressor blade face and leading edges. That was way back in 2002. This RAM that we've developed is several magnitudes more capable.

PS: Chinese have also developed special RAM coat for J-16(and other fighters) and according to them, it provides J-16 partial stealth capabilities. Our RAM paint is going to be even superior to that.

 

[randomradio]

No. The quote posted by @marich01 is talking about next gen RAM that we've indigenously developed. This has far more -dB absorption than previous paints. And what's interesting is that far better stuff is planned for future.

Yes, between -20dBsm to -10dBsm. -10dBsm to 1dBsm is RO territory. Plan is to make MKI UPG. go to that level with next gen RAM. Better and next gen RAM on exposed engine blades/inlet is good enough to drop it several magnitudes from now.

That's not enough. The problems are also its large wing and twin fins, canards, the tail and so on. If it was possible, the Russians would have done it on both the Su-35 and Su-34 a long time ago.

 

[Rajput Lion]

That's not enough. The problems are also its large wing and twin fins, canards, the tail and so on.

RAM application on RCS spike zones like inlet face/compressor fan face, leading edges was actually old approach. New approach, especially what the Chinese are doing is to apply RAM throughout the frame of Flanker. Here is what what an official PLAAF pilot said:

The new coat will provide the J-16 a level of stealth capabilities not only against the naked eye but also with electromagnetic devices, said Chinese Air Force pilot Jiang Jiaji last year on China Central Television.

Full article: Chinese military aircraft to receive new stealth coatings - Global Times

If it was possible, the Russians would have done it on both the Su-35 and Su-34 a long time ago.

As per Russian sources, future Su-35SM will feature radar blocker and its frontal(90° arc) radar signature would be very similar to Su-57.

 

[randomradio]

RAM application on RCS spike zones like inlet face/compressor fan face, leading edges was actually old approach. New approach, especially what the Chinese are doing is to apply RAM throughout the frame of Flanker. Here is what what an official PLAAF pilot said:



Full article: Chinese military aircraft to receive new stealth coatings - Global Times

Yes, but it's all relative, not absolute. For example, the Flanker RCS won't drop below the Rafale or LCA. And the same treatment can be applied to other small RCS aircraft and then the relative difference will still stay big.

Another problem is the added expense, higher maintenance requirements, addition to weight, increased drag and so on. So it depends on how much the IAF will sacrifice in terms of performance to get other benefits when they don't even want slightly larger holes on the MKI for MAWS.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1182705.shtml

As per Russian sources, future Su-35SM will feature radar blocker and its frontal(90° arc) radar signature would be very similar to Su-57.

That's physically impossible. It would require a significant redesign, like the F-15 Silent Eagle. Meaning it can't be applied on existing aircraft.

As long as those vertical fins exist, it's impossible. And unlike more modern jets, both Flankers and Eagles have all metal fins.

Don't trust the Russian sources for now, they are trying to market their Flankers due to the delays in Su-57 and the coming end of their export business. It's also why Putin has been pushing for large defense deals with China. They are doing what Boeing did a decade ago with the Silent Eagle, just hype.

Another thing about the J-16 is it's a relatively new design compared to the MKI. It's not completely an all-metal aircraft. More importantly, it's gonna work in tandem with the J-20, like what the Americans are doing with the F-22 and F-15EX combo. We don't have that option. So what the other two are doing don't apply to us at this time. We were supposed to be using the FGFA alongside the MKI from this year onwards to create the same effect. We now have to do what the French and Swedes are doing, but with significantly fewer jets compared to requirements. Our goal over the last 2 decades has disappeared, and we have pushed it back by nearly 15 years now.

The IAF currently is just trying to maintain the country's morale by blatantly lying while the IA is creating alternative capabilities to bridge the gap, a condition where the IAF can possibly become toothless. So the prognosis for the next 10 years is not good.