Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

jk007

Member
Apr 9, 2020
51
30
Boston, USA
The M2000 with the current upgrade makes it an extremely advanced aircraft. It's actually the most useful jet for short wars.

It carries hardware specific to some missions that other aircraft cannot carry out properly.



120 Mig-21s are leaving by 2024-25. They are already well past their shelf lives. Rafale won't help. We need a single engine jet like the LCA, Gripen, F-16 or M2000. LCAs will take time, post 2025. Gripen/F-16 are not going to happen. Second-hand M2000 are the fastest. Those 13 new jets alone can cover an entire sector all on their own, like the LoC.

We will be in a very uncomfortable position between the end of 2023 and the end of 2027. That's how long it will take us to get 3 new squadrons of LCA. So every new squadron of M2000 buys us an extra year.
a) Is there an assumption in your arguments that the m2000Cs will be upgraded to 2000-5 standard?
b) are you happy that India is planning to use discarded m2000Cs to guard LOC. Even though they can not fire latest MICA?
 

kor4116

Member
Feb 17, 2021
37
35
korea
Taiwan and France’s Dassault sign service agreement for Mirage jets | Taiwan News | 2021-09-18 13:37:00
Taiwan does not appear to have any intention of decommissioning the Mirage 2000 for the time being. Taiwan has signed a new technical support contract for Mirage 2000 with Dassault France, and the term is until September 2026. Dassault Technicians will be stationed at the Hsinchu base to service the Mirage 2000.
800px-ROCAF_Dassault_Mirage_2000-5Ei_Aoki-8 (1).jpg
 

thinkingcap81

Member
Jun 2, 2019
237
99
India
Anybody with a fighter jet and a long range glide bomb can demonstrate that against any air force, even the USAF. Since it wasn't a war, they simply had the first shot advantage.
Agreed. But as @Lolwa said, the fauj has to show that they are equal to India. Since they cannot take IAF on for a slightly longer period, an easy option is to lob a few bombs and then tell that IAF also did the same and were beaten back upon interception.

That's extremely unprofesional.

They took those shots with the full intention to kill. Their intention was clearly to punish us in return for our bombings.

If their intention was only to demonstrate capability, they didn't have to do what they did. They literally showed off all their cards and went back to the drawing board overnight, for demonstrating a capability that's actually taken for granted. In order to rebuild their capabilities all over again, it's going to take them a minimum of 5-10 years. Are you sure that was worth it?

Plus they wouldn't have to fire off more than a dozen bombs just to show off. The overall scale was too big for a mere demonstration of capabilities. You don't know it, but the PAF has gone back to the drawing board with respect to a lot of their EM capabilities because they have lost a lot of whatever suprise they could achieve.
Again i can't believe that they would want to bomb IA posiions especially when we said that we only attacked their terrorist positions and they denied that we could even bomb anything. Public posturing from them dictates what they will do - they can only try to lob a few bombs in empty spaces to show intent.

About the scale being too big, well i don't have any answer. Perhaps PAF needed so many fighter and EW aircraft to create a bubble of asymmetry since one-on-one they don't have the confidence to do much. PAF chose a good time to attack.

If such small skirmishes were enough to reveal all cards then how can we even think of any short skirmishes? We'll reveal everything to each other. Our counter to disperse their formations didn't reveal much to them?

And suppose they had actually bombed areas extremely close to IA positions, enough to create an actual state of war, then how did they think that we would not respond? How could they justify their actions to the world? That's why i think that they didn't want to do much.

-------------------------------------------------

Coming back to the topic, as @jk007 asked, are we looking to upgrade these 13 Mirages so that we can have another squadron like @vstol Jockey said? Does it make more operational sense to have the same configuration ans the French upgraded ones or had Indian upgrades like uprated Uttam etc? French stuff is very costly. Or buy them cheap and then force the babus to upgrade them?
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,324
1,312
India
Agreed. But as @Lolwa said, the fauj has to show that they are equal to India. Since they cannot take IAF on for a slightly longer period, an easy option is to lob a few bombs and then tell that IAF also did the same and were beaten back upon interception.


Again i can't believe that they would want to bomb IA posiions especially when we said that we only attacked their terrorist positions and they denied that we could even bomb anything. Public posturing from them dictates what they will do - they can only try to lob a few bombs in empty spaces to show intent.

About the scale being too big, well i don't have any answer. Perhaps PAF needed so many fighter and EW aircraft to create a bubble of asymmetry since one-on-one they don't have the confidence to do much. PAF chose a good time to attack.

If such small skirmishes were enough to reveal all cards then how can we even think of any short skirmishes? We'll reveal everything to each other. Our counter to disperse their formations didn't reveal much to them?

And suppose they had actually bombed areas extremely close to IA positions, enough to create an actual state of war, then how did they think that we would not respond? How could they justify their actions to the world? That's why i think that they didn't want to do much.

-------------------------------------------------

Coming back to the topic, as @jk007 asked, are we looking to upgrade these 13 Mirages so that we can have another squadron like @vstol Jockey said? Does it make more operational sense to have the same configuration ans the French upgraded ones or had Indian upgrades like uprated Uttam etc? French stuff is very costly. Or buy them cheap and then force the babus to upgrade them?

We spent 50 million to upgrade a single mirage 2000-2005 standards long back.

Even st that time we were discussing whether to buy brand new Rafale or go in for upgrade.

Because we didn't induct Rafale and pay for associated thing s cost.. And also we had experience in mirage,, we went for the costly upgrade which were very good standards at that time.

Now the same situation arises but
We own Rafale bases now, paid for Indian standards and also trained with Rafale.
2005 mirage is not cutting edge anymore.

It doesn't make sense to upgrade these using French kits now rather than buying Rafale itself.

But if we were allowed to upgrade on our own, it's entirely different matter.
 

thinkingcap81

Member
Jun 2, 2019
237
99
India
We spent 50 million to upgrade a single mirage 2000-2005 standards long back.

Even st that time we were discussing whether to buy brand new Rafale or go in for upgrade.

Because we didn't induct Rafale and pay for associated thing s cost.. And also we had experience in mirage,, we went for the costly upgrade which were very good standards at that time.

Now the same situation arises but
We own Rafale bases now, paid for Indian standards and also trained with Rafale.
2005 mirage is not cutting edge anymore.

It doesn't make sense to upgrade these using French kits now rather than buying Rafale itself.

But if we were allowed to upgrade on our own, it's entirely different matter.
The upgraded M2000s started coming to us from 2015.

We are also planning to take an additional 12 MKIs in the early 2000's configuration. There's no major insight into when the Super Sukhoi upgrades of our existing MKI fleet will actually commence - just some random articles.

@randomradio : are the upgrades that we can give to these unused Mirages better (cost-wise and equipment wise) than the French M2000I standard?
 

Lolwa

Well-Known member
Feb 6, 2020
1,212
834
Delhi
The upgraded M2000s started coming to us from 2015.

We are also planning to take an additional 12 MKIs in the early 2000's configuration. There's no major insight into when the Super Sukhoi upgrades of our existing MKI fleet will actually commence - just some random articles.

@randomradio : are the upgrades that we can give to these unused Mirages better (cost-wise and equipment wise) than the French M2000I standard?
Those MKI's will most likely be super Sukhoi standard. They will be the first ones to enter the fleet as upgraded. They most probably will use composites as well as the al 41 if the IAF is interested in upgrading the engines of the mki's which in my opinion they should since the j16 also uses an upgraded engine.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,324
1,312
India
Those MKI's will most likely be super Sukhoi standard. They will be the first ones to enter the fleet as upgraded. They most probably will use composites as well as the al 41 if the IAF is interested in upgrading the engines of the mki's which in my opinion they should since the j16 also uses an upgraded engine.

Al41 is ruled out. Hal test pilot clearly gave his opinion about changing engine for a fighter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chain Smoker

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
a) Is there an assumption in your arguments that the m2000Cs will be upgraded to 2000-5 standard?

It depends on whether the IAF plans to use the flyable ones operationally. If operational use is certain, the upgrade is 100% guaranteed.

b) are you happy that India is planning to use discarded m2000Cs to guard LOC. Even though they can not fire latest MICA?

We have a mix of upgraded and unupgraded jets. So the ones operating at the borders in Kashmir will be the upgraded ones. The rest, even the new ones, should be able to get upgraded before the Mig-21s leave service. It's about what we will have in 2023-24.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chain Smoker

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
Agreed. But as @Lolwa said, the fauj has to show that they are equal to India. Since they cannot take IAF on for a slightly longer period, an easy option is to lob a few bombs and then tell that IAF also did the same and were beaten back upon interception.

They can peddle whatever stories they want to.

Again i can't believe that they would want to bomb IA posiions especially when we said that we only attacked their terrorist positions and they denied that we could even bomb anything. Public posturing from them dictates what they will do - they can only try to lob a few bombs in empty spaces to show intent.

About the scale being too big, well i don't have any answer. Perhaps PAF needed so many fighter and EW aircraft to create a bubble of asymmetry since one-on-one they don't have the confidence to do much. PAF chose a good time to attack.

If such small skirmishes were enough to reveal all cards then how can we even think of any short skirmishes? We'll reveal everything to each other. Our counter to disperse their formations didn't reveal much to them?

And suppose they had actually bombed areas extremely close to IA positions, enough to create an actual state of war, then how did they think that we would not respond? How could they justify their actions to the world? That's why i think that they didn't want to do much.

The skirmish is "small" because it was just one isolated mission. But it's the size and complexity of the mission that's important and it's the complexity that gives away secrets. It wasn't a small formation of 2 jets firing off missiles from their side of the LoC and disappearing, which was more than enough to show equality with the IAF to the aam janta. So yeah, if they only wanted to show off "equality", they didn't have to mobilise over 30 aircraft. The size of their attack was far too big for a mere demonstration.

-------------------------------------------------

Coming back to the topic, as @jk007 asked, are we looking to upgrade these 13 Mirages so that we can have another squadron like @vstol Jockey said? Does it make more operational sense to have the same configuration ans the French upgraded ones or had Indian upgrades like uprated Uttam etc? French stuff is very costly. Or buy them cheap and then force the babus to upgrade them?

Makes sense to maintain only one configuration.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chain Smoker

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
@randomradio : are the upgrades that we can give to these unused Mirages better (cost-wise and equipment wise) than the French M2000I standard?

Yes. If upgraded, there won't be any realistic comparison to older M2000s. Primarily because of the brand new EW suite.
Al41 is ruled out. Hal test pilot clearly gave his opinion about changing engine for a fighter.

It will also be the fastest path.
 

jk007

Member
Apr 9, 2020
51
30
Boston, USA
It depends on whether the IAF plans to use the flyable ones operationally. If operational use is certain, the upgrade is 100% guaranteed.



We have a mix of upgraded and unupgraded jets. So the ones operating at the borders in Kashmir will be the upgraded ones. The rest, even the new ones, should be able to get upgraded before the Mig-21s leave service. It's about what we will have in 2023-24.

If this is true, then instead of trying to understand what IAF is doing, it might be better to understand the next stock market crash (both are equally difficult).

I am getting to believe (despite not wanting to) that IAF / MOD is bad at planning / execution and is coming out as winner due to size diff vis-a-vis PAF.

Indian public (like myself) also knows the size diff vis-a-vis PAK and are not much bothered. But China is going to be altogether different.

Sorry for my rant....but can't understand buying discarded jets and upgrading them, when there is LCA MK1A, MK2, Rafale etc. The easiest being purchasing additional rafale.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AbRaj

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
Taiwan and France’s Dassault sign service agreement for Mirage jets | Taiwan News | 2021-09-18 13:37:00
Taiwan does not appear to have any intention of decommissioning the Mirage 2000 for the time being. Taiwan has signed a new technical support contract for Mirage 2000 with Dassault France, and the term is until September 2026. Dassault Technicians will be stationed at the Hsinchu base to service the Mirage 2000.
View attachment 21050

It's difficult to say from just that. The retirement of the M2000 and its subsequent sale requires the F-16V to finish induction. Interestingly the contract with France ends in 2026, around the same time the F-16V finishes deliveries. But then, it's a 5-year contract, which is a normal duration for such a contract.

The best judge is to see if Taiwan decides to upgrade the M2000. Because, right now, even the Taiwanese jets are on their very last legs before needing upgrades.

Back in 2012, the Taiwanese media reported that France had quoted an unrealistic price for the upgrade, and that was apparently due to Chinese pressure. Taiwan is upgrading F-16s at $35M a plane whereas India's M2000 upgrade costs $41M, not a massive difference. There may be some truth to that story. Plus we know today the French wants nothing to do with the Chinese militarily, which is an exceedingly important factor for a country like Taiwan. So I won't be surprised if Taiwan discards its M2000 in favour of more F-16s or the F-35 after 2026.
 
  • Like
Reactions: suryakiran

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
If this is true, then instead of trying to understand what IAF is doing, it might be better to understand the next stock market crash (both are equally difficult).

I am getting to believe (despite not wanting to) that IAF / MOD is bad at planning / execution and is coming out as winner due to size diff vis-a-vis PAF.

Indian public (like myself) also knows the size diff vis-a-vis PAK and are not much bothered. But China is going to be altogether different.

Sorry for my rant....but can't understand buying discarded jets and upgrading them, when there is LCA MK1A, MK2, Rafale etc. The easiest being purchasing additional rafale.

They are fine when it comes to planning, but we do not have the pockets necessary to accomplish those plans. For a First World military, we need First World funding. Had we signed the deal for 126 Rafales we wouldn't have had to bother with these things. Go back even earlier, had we gone for 126 M2000s right after Kargil War, we wouldn't be facing this issue. This is a money problem.

Buying additional Rafales is also easy, but what if I tell you the new M2000s are up and over that? We could very well start the process to buy 36 more Rafales too, but Rafales do not address the role the Mig-21 plays. Even if we sign the deal in 2022, the earliest we get the first batch is in 2025, with deliveries going on until 2027. We have signed the deal for LCA as well, but the first 2 jets will only come in 2024, followed by 8 in 2025, and a squadron in 2026, whereas these M2000s can be delivered in just a few months. If there are more flyable M2000s available, we can get those within a year as well. If we want jets "right now", the only option is second-hand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chain Smoker

TARGET

Well-Known member
Dec 2, 2017
579
466
They are fine when it comes to planning, but we do not have the pockets necessary to accomplish those plans. For a First World military, we need First World funding. Had we signed the deal for 126 Rafales we wouldn't have had to bother with these things. Go back even earlier, had we gone for 126 M2000s right after Kargil War, we wouldn't be facing this issue. This is a money problem.

Buying additional Rafales is also easy, but what if I tell you the new M2000s are up and over that? We could very well start the process to buy 36 more Rafales too, but Rafales do not address the role the Mig-21 plays. Even if we sign the deal in 2022, the earliest we get the first batch is in 2025, with deliveries going on until 2027. We have signed the deal for LCA as well, but the first 2 jets will only come in 2024, followed by 8 in 2025, and a squadron in 2026, whereas these M2000s can be delivered in just a few months. If there are more flyable M2000s available, we can get those within a year as well. If we want jets "right now", the only option is second-hand.
What about upgrades ?... can HAL put Uttam AESA, indigenous EW platform, and ASTRA on this M2000?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sathya

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
12,070
9,209
India
What about upgrades ?... can HAL put Uttam AESA, indigenous EW platform, and ASTRA on this M2000?

Weapons can be done, although anything except MICA for BVR is a problem due to the airframe design. There are no plans for the other systems yet, so I don't think that will happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TARGET

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,676
3,014
73
France
transition.wifeo.com
@Picdelamirand-oil

24 2000-C = 8 rafale? Is that from availability rate? For ex: each 2000-c needs 4 hour downtime vs rafale needs 1 hour downtime? Or capability wise?

What about equation between 2000-5 & Rafale?
This is because the Mirage 2000 does not have the same payload capabilities as the Rafale, and my remark did not concern the Mirage 2000 C specifically but the entire Mirage 2000 family.
A Rafale does not need an escort for a strike mission for example.
But sometime a Rafale is overkill! In Africa for exemple...