Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

A Person

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I find it pretty stupid that the French did not offer an alternative with the Rafale+ASMP or Rafale+new gravity nukes to replace the American nuclear arsenal in Europe. The same could have been repeated all over Europe. If French laws prevented such a deal, then I'd say the French are being shortsighted.
It's not French laws but the Non-Proliferation Treaty which prevents such a deal.

Nuclear sharing predates the NPT so it's grandfathered in, but it's based on bilateral agreements between the USA and their various partners. It's not possible to substitute France to the USA in such agreements. It also would not be possible to substitute the ASMP to the B61 because it's a different type of weapon. That's why NATO nuclear sharing is still based on dumb gravity bombs; they can modernize the B61 but it has to remain the B61 otherwise it's a breach of the NPT.
 
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BMD

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Easily. As long as Germany and France cooperate.
No way, there aren't enough assets to deal with Russian aircraft and land forces simultaneously. That's where the B61 comes in. Sure you won't fly it to Moscow, no way no how, but you can drop it on advancing Russian land forces.
 

randomradio

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No way, there aren't enough assets to deal with Russian aircraft and land forces simultaneously. That's where the B61 comes in. Sure you won't fly it to Moscow, no way no how, but you can drop it on advancing Russian land forces.

Even Russian land forces are under the protection of BMD.
 

BMD

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A weapon of another age.
It's as if the USN use the Polaris in the New Columbia SSBN class.
Sometimes it's what you need. Even nicer would be some nuclear-tipped shells for this 1,000nm cannon in the works. S-500 wouldn't be of much use then.
 

randomradio

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Right, but only the short range ones can fire whilst moving. Short-range is no problem from ARMs.

They don't need to move to perform BMD. The range of the old missiles were 200-250Km, the new ones exceed 400Km, for BMD. So the troops can operate safely inside the SAM ring while being protected.

Furthermore, they have medium range missiles like Patriot that can perform BMD as well.

Regardless, the SH with its gravity nuke is not getting close to its target.
 
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BMD

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They don't need to move to perform BMD. The range of the old missiles were 200-250Km, the new ones exceed 400Km, for BMD. So the troops can operate safely inside the SAM ring while being protected.

Furthermore, they have medium range missiles like Patriot that can perform BMD as well.

Regardless, the SH with its gravity nuke is not getting close to its target.
They have to move forward at some point, it also depends whether they're still there or not, plus range against ECM. The vast majority of Russian SAM resources will be guarding key targets, not frontline divisions.
 

randomradio

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They have to move forward at some point, it also depends whether they're still there or not, plus range against ECM. The vast majority of Russian SAM resources will be guarding key targets, not frontline divisions.

They move forward really, really fast. They are on tracks, so they can keep up with tanks.



Only 5 mins of packing and unpacking time.

And they are present in large numbers, so while one battalion moves the other battalion is active.

And with a range of 100-400Km, it's impossible for any tank army to simply cover that sort of range even after a day while fighting, especially when up against NATO.

And, looking at the basic design of the TEL there, it's clear that it's meant to protect frontline units.

There are also medium range units.


And all this while being covered by an aircraft like the Su-57, which the USAF is pretty confident even the F-22 will fall short.

That SH is not gonna return, and is definitely not going to drop anything anywhere near the Russians.

Also, what is well-known the world over, nukes meant to stop armour advances are useless. The B61s are meant to hit static targets deep inside Russia, not frontline units.
 

BMD

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You're overestimating how far forward they can be placed. For a start they definitely can't be within range of ATACMS or PrSM, because the US Army have tens of thousands of them and they can deluge any SAM network. There are also decoy drones like MALD-Js and BQM-74s. Any system that far forward will be swamped neck deep is so much horseshit they won't have time to even notice enemy fighters, especially with Growlers running EW cover.

F-22 fall short of the fake-stealth Su-57? Give me a break.
 

randomradio

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You're overestimating how far forward they can be placed. For a start they definitely can't be within range of ATACMS or PrSM, because the US Army have tens of thousands of them and they can deluge any SAM network. There are also decoy drones like MALD-Js and BQM-74s. Any system that far forward will be swamped neck deep is so much horseshit they won't have time to even notice enemy fighters, especially with Growlers running EW cover.

They can place it anywhere they want. While attacking it is easy, finding it is not.

Also, TBMs and SRBMs can be stopped even with their Buks, let alone the BMD. And the Russians also have counter battery capability.

F-22 fall short of the fake-stealth Su-57? Give me a break.

The reason why its modernised version was abandoned.
 

BMD

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They can place it anywhere they want. While attacking it is easy, finding it is not.

Also, TBMs and SRBMs can be stopped even with their Buks, let alone the BMD. And the Russians also have counter battery capability.



The reason why its modernised version was abandoned.
Finding something the size of an S-400 with modern satellites and JSTARS isn't easy? Fall asleep.

They're are too many ATACMS and PrSMs, not to mention MALD-Js. They're cheaper than Buk and S-400 missiles and the US is richer anyway. ATACMS can also use submunition warheads. It would be a good way to lose SAM systems really quickly. SAM systems that would be more effectively defending deep to protect key infrastructure.

The F-22 has been continually updated. The Su-57 on the other hand was never stealth to begin with.
 

randomradio

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Finding something the size of an S-400 with modern satellites and JSTARS isn't easy? Fall asleep.

Naturally. It's just a handful of trucks going around the battlefield. Locating a moving SAM unit is extremely difficult to the point that it's rarely attempted. Rather they wait for it to light up.

They're are too many ATACMS and PrSMs, not to mention MALD-Js. They're cheaper than Buk and S-400 missiles and the US is richer anyway. ATACMS can also use submunition warheads. It would be a good way to lose SAM systems really quickly. SAM systems that would be more effectively defending deep to protect key infrastructure.

Yeah, lol, okay.

The F-22 has been continually updated. The Su-57 on the other hand was never stealth to begin with.

The USAF themselves say the F-22 won't be competitive with the Su-57 and J-20. Read their Air Superiority 2030 document.
 

Bon Plan

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The Su-57 on the other hand was never stealth to begin with.
It is maybe less stealthy than F22, but you can't imagine russian to be idiot so as not to rely on stealth for a last gen fighter (SU35 is enough then). Probably they are not relying to stealth at such USAF level.
Just as US navy : they prefer SH18 to F35, and are continuing to produce non specialy stealthy destroyers as the Burke class is.
The USAF themselves say the F-22 won't be competitive with the Su-57 and J-20. Read their Air Superiority 2030 document.
It's just a low end argument to ask for more money for another superiority fighter (once the F22 line is closed).
 
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