Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

WHOHE

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'Another podcast episode featuring test pilot Billie Flynn about the F-35. This time they take time to address all the (uneducated) fluff surrounding the aircraft and the program.

ENJOY!'

@38:00 is where they get into the real deal.
 
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Bon Plan

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Conformal radar on a Rafale is unlikely to happen.... ever. The replacement will arrive long before.
Maybe F4 standart. F5 for sure.

And what about AESA on EF2000? two years late, no three years late. Oh shit four. Oups no.... far more.
 

WHOHE

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At 1:14:00 it pretty much explains why the F-
'Another podcast episode featuring test pilot Billie Flynn about the F-35. This time they take time to address all the (uneducated) fluff surrounding the aircraft and the program.

ENJOY!'

@38:00 is where they get into the real deal.
At 1:14:00 they get into why the F-35 is superior in SA/Sensor Fusion to the french plane and other 4th gen fighters... I'm looking at you randomradio.

There's a reason why the french plane needs two seater.
 

john0496

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You do not provide any evidence.
Things related in the document indicate capabilities the Rafale also has.
The argument about the two seaters doesn't work.
All the missions can be done with a one seater Rafale.
eg: there is no two seater of the Marine Rafale and the Rafale M can fill all the missions (including nuclear missions)
 

randomradio

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At 1:14:00 they get into why the F-35 is superior in SA/Sensor Fusion to the french plane and other 4th gen fighters... I'm looking at you randomradio.

There's a reason why the french plane needs two seater.

Yeah, the French plane does the same as well. The naval version doesn't have a two-seater since they decided a decade before the F-35 was even born that one seat is enough. You also forget that the Rafale was designed in the 70s whereas the F-35 was designed in the 90s. You also forget that Flynn is talking about US jets, not French. 'Cause the French have been operating with sensor fusion when the F-35 was still on paper.

Lastly, what Flynn said is marketing fluff. A two-seat F-35 will allow the implementation of new techniques and capabilities, especially in battlespace management, that a single pilot cannot handle. But, since the F-35 wasn't designed for this role, it doesn't matter. It's just a simpler tactical fighter after all, the more compex missions will go to the B-21.
 
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BMD

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The fact that it didn't have IMA.
Inertial Measurement unit Array - that's GPS related? But the article clearly said that the Typhoon has sensor fusion algorithms. So, to cut it short, you're wrong.
Maybe F4 standart. F5 for sure.

And what about AESA on EF2000? two years late, no three years late. Oh shit four. Oups no.... far more.
Don't conflate radar 2 with radar 1.
 
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randomradio

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Inertial Measurement unit Array - that's GPS related? But the article clearly said that the Typhoon has sensor fusion algorithms. So, to cut it short, you're wrong.

Integrated Modular Avionics. It means the aircraft has just one mission computer that handles all avionics functions. The only fighters that had this in the 2000s were the M2000, Rafale, F-22 and F-35, in that order.

The Typhoon uses a federated architecture, with multiple computers, like other 4th gen aircraft of the time.

And underlying the modernization of the plane is a shift from the classic federated computer system in the aircraft to a more flexible sensor integration approach.

The systems architecture is built around a federated system where each computer communicate with each other via high-speed data busses. Each of the combat sub-systems was housed in separate physical computers as part of the avionic system running the aircraft. And each of these subsystems, such as communications, display & control, attack, flight control, etc. was tasked to one of the four core Eurofighter companies.


So all that such a system can do is declutter the display. That's not sensor fusion. This is because with the Typhoon, many companies were involved in the development of the avionics, and they couldn't work together to unify it, like Thales has done.

The US suffers from the same problem, with different companies making different avionics of the F-35, and the end result is sensor fusion doesn't work properly.

However we can assume that the Typhoon now has sensor fusion, considering the article aims to create such a system. But I suppose it's either brand new and unproven or still WIP. Simply nowhere near the Rafale. Naturally, it didn't have it in the 2000s.
 
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AbRaj

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Lets try this again since Indian mods are a little touchy about the facts.

India is not satisfied with your french plane or they would have bought the 120+ planned instead of 36. Why would they settle for 36 of this so-called "advanced fighter" when they have a huge threat to their north and west? Especially the north where CCP has stealth fighters and hundreds of 4th gen flankers. I'd understand buying 36 if India was some small Euro country with no real threats like Swiss and many Euro F-35 nations but 36 french fighters when you have CCP next to you says a lot about your plane, bub.
No one is touchy about about Armed Forces here. Its your language that is creating issue.
Maybe F4 standart. F5 for sure.

And what about AESA on EF2000? two years late, no three years late. Oh shit four. Oups no.... far more.
EFT is a lost case. No point mocking @BMD for it.
OTOH F35 is coming out nicely despite of all its shortcomings. Its per-order list is akin to IPhone 13 and on benchmarks it beats all others by quite some margin.
And similar to iPhone 13 its overpriced and not suitable for those who want heavylifting jets.
 
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WHOHE

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F-35 Completes Final Test for Nuclear-Capable B61 Series Weapons​

Oct. 5, 2021 | By Abraham Mahshie

American deterrence efforts came one step closer to a critical new level when the Air Force proved a stealth fighter is capable of delivering a tactical nuclear weapon inside hostile territory, Air Combat Command confirmed Oct. 4.

The F-35A is the first fifth-generation fighter to near certification as a nuclear-capable platform after completing the first full weapon system demonstration and completing the nuclear design certification process. During the demonstration, two F-35s dropped B61-12 Joint Test Assemblies (JTAs), which mimic a real-world tactical gravity nuclear weapon, at the Tonopah Test Range in Nevada.

“It makes our potential adversaries think more about their game plan before launching it,” Air Combat Command deputy director for strategic deterrence Lt. Col. Douglas A. Kabel told Air Force Magazine.

“It can get closer to, further inside a combat area that may otherwise be impossible for non-stealth assets,” Kabel added.
Air Combat Command’s 422nd and 59th Test and Evaluation Squadrons, based at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., flew the final flight test exercise for the aircraft to receive nuclear design certification. Test data is now under review at the Department of Defense and Department of Energy to ensure the F-35A and B61-12 JTAs performed correctly.

The next step is nuclear operational certification to ensure training and validation of maintenance and air crews at desired wing locations where nuclear-capable F-35 missions exist. Approval would mean the United States has a fighter capable of hitting targets with tactical nuclear weapons inside hostile territory without detection.

“What happened was for the first time, an operationally representative F-35 aircraft executed a drop of a B61-12 Joint Test Assembly, which is basically exactly like a B61 that comes out of the nuclear stockpile without the physics package in it—the part that makes it go ‘boom,’” Kabel explained. “It can get closer, and with a gravity type of weapon, the closer you can get to your actual target, the more likely it is you’re going to hit it.”
Lt. Col. Daniel Jackson, headquarters ACC strategic deterrence and nuclear integration division chief, said the B61 series weapons can be used on other dual-capable aircraft such as the F-15E and F-16 C/D.

“Having a fifth-generation [dual-capable] fighter aircraft with this capability brings an entirely new strategic-level capability that strengthens our nation’s nuclear deterrence mission,” Jackson said in an Oct. 4 press release.

The F-35s used for the JTA test required two major hardware component modifications to take on the nuclear weapon, a nuclear consent switch in the cockpit, and a mission select switch in the weapon bay.

“The switch has to be in a certain position for the aircraft to recognize that it’s a new capable type of configuration,” Jackson said of the mission select switch, which must be engaged on the ground. “There is kind of an extra added safety measure, I would say, added to the jet as well.”

The nuclear certification process is broken into two phases: nuclear design certification and nuclear operational certification. This test conducted is considered the graduation flight test exercise for the F-35A’s nuclear design certification.
Jackson said that right now, the B-2 bomber is the Air Force’s only nuclear-capable stealth aircraft.
However, once certified, not every F-35 will become nuclear capable, Kabel said.

“At the end of the day, once the aircraft is design certified, it still has to be operationally certified,” he said. “That will be done at the location, the operational wing, that has the mission to utilize this.”

The two ACC officers declined to disclose a timeline or location for the operationally certified aircraft but indicated it would come soon.
“There’ll be an initial design certification here in the not-too-distant future,” Kabel said. “Then, follow on after that is the operational certification, which completes the process, making the F-35 a fully certified, dual-capable aircraft, and that capability is one that now we can put in the hands of the combatant commanders.”
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What a nightmare... a nuke strike that you can't see coming unlike ICBMs and Sub-launch missiles.
 
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WHOHE

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Italy And UK Are Integrating New European Weapons On The F-35 Lightning II​

9b92ddd9b9758f5fd6edbbe5f5ba948706b03b720d86f82f8a1b49e976d314f1.jpg

The two countries will complete the integration of the Meteor air-to-air missile and SPEAR 3 air-to-surface missile on both the F-35A and F-35B.​

BAE Systems and MBDA have been awarded a program to complete the integration of new weapons on Italian and British F-35 Lightning II 5th gen aircraft (note: the British F-35B are simply called Lightning not Lightning II). The additional funding that comes with this new contract will allow the continuation of the first development works started in 2019 by BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin and MBDA to upgrade the UK F-35 weapon systems with the Meteor air-to-air missile and the SPEAR 3 air-to-surface missile.

Poor enemies of the F-35 in a way you sorta do feel sorry for them.
 
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BMD

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Integrated Modular Avionics. It means the aircraft has just one mission computer that handles all avionics functions. The only fighters that had this in the 2000s were the M2000, Rafale, F-22 and F-35, in that order.

The Typhoon uses a federated architecture, with multiple computers, like other 4th gen aircraft of the time.

And underlying the modernization of the plane is a shift from the classic federated computer system in the aircraft to a more flexible sensor integration approach.

The systems architecture is built around a federated system where each computer communicate with each other via high-speed data busses. Each of the combat sub-systems was housed in separate physical computers as part of the avionic system running the aircraft. And each of these subsystems, such as communications, display & control, attack, flight control, etc. was tasked to one of the four core Eurofighter companies.


So all that such a system can do is declutter the display. That's not sensor fusion. This is because with the Typhoon, many companies were involved in the development of the avionics, and they couldn't work together to unify it, like Thales has done.

The US suffers from the same problem, with different companies making different avionics of the F-35, and the end result is sensor fusion doesn't work properly.

However we can assume that the Typhoon now has sensor fusion, considering the article aims to create such a system. But I suppose it's either brand new and unproven or still WIP. Simply nowhere near the Rafale. Naturally, it didn't have it in the 2000s.
Modular architecture has nothing to do with sensor fusion or not, it's about ease of replacement and upgrade. The F-22 does not have modular architecture either but still has sensor fusion. Sensor fusion is about the filtering and algoritms used to combine the data. The Typhoon does have more than one CPU though and it has been upgraded since the Swiss eval.


The Praetorian system is a modular system consisting of antennas for electronic countermeasures (ECM), electronic support measures (ESM), missile approach warning systems (MAW), laser warning receivers (LWR) and Towed radar decoy (TRD).[14] The system is divided into 20 major line replaceable units (LRU) with all the components controlled by a Teldix GmbH Defensive Aids Computer (DAC) on MIL-STD-1553 databus.[15][16] The DAC is connected via fiber optic cables to STANAG 3910 in the avionics, with the entire DAC system controlled by five Radstone PowerPC-4 processors, that have a tenfold increase in computing power compared to the original five Motorola 68020 CPUs.
 

randomradio

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Modular architecture has nothing to do with sensor fusion or not, it's about ease of replacement and upgrade. The F-22 does not have modular architecture either but still has sensor fusion. Sensor fusion is about the filtering and algoritms used to combine the data. The Typhoon does have more than one CPU though and it has been upgraded since the Swiss eval.


The article I posted clearly says "to a more flexible sensor integration approach."

The point of IMA is sensor fusion. They are synonymous. You can't have sensor fusion with a federated architecture.
 
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BMD

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The article I posted clearly says "to a more flexible sensor integration approach."

The point of IMA is sensor fusion. They are synonymous. You can't have sensor fusion with a federated architecture.
Sensor integration is not sensor fusion. Modular architecture allows sensors and associated equipment to be upgraded more easily, hence more flexible. You literally do not understand what you are talking about at all. Even the article you posted says that it has it.

The situational awareness delivered by the fusion of Captor and other sensors in combination with the larger no escape zone of the Meteor should give Typhoon a significant combat advantage.

The way I would put it is that Eurofighter is an inherently living fighter. The platform has longevity in terms of its airframe, power plant, cockpit, avionics and autopilot. It is well positioned for weapons integration and leveraging externally mounted sensors. The airplane is capable of mature sensor fusion and we are focused on evolving the sensor management capability of the airplane as well.


The sensor fusion process produces a unique track of a single target which may be reported by several sensors simultaneously, each one providing a subset of target attributes which are compiled to produce an as complete as possible view of the target," Friemer says. Algorithms weigh the reliability of each report before merging them to produce a fused target identity and priority.
 
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randomradio

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Sensor integration is not sensor fusion. Modular architecture allows sensors and associated equipment to be upgraded more easily, hence more flexible. You literally do not understand what you are talking about at all. Even the article you posted says that it has it.






Nope. It is what I said.

What the Typhoon does is, it has this thing called the AIS. The AIS collects track data from all sensors through all the federated computers, including offboard, and then when it displays it to the pilot, it shows the most relevant data with the most information, the rest is discarded. So if the radar has the best data, it discards data from the AWACS, IRST and EW suite. It merely declutters the display. It's only been designed to reduce pilot workload.

With IMA, you have one computer to rule them all. You can't do what IMA does with a federated system.

The article you have posted is about some future version of the Typhoon that didn't exist. So there's no point in repeating it. I'm sure there are articles from that era which spoke of the Typhoon getting an AESA radar as well. Facts speak for themselves. Typhoon's computers are federated, hence no fusion.
 

BMD

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Nope. It is what I said.

What the Typhoon does is, it has this thing called the AIS. The AIS collects track data from all sensors through all the federated computers, including offboard, and then when it displays it to the pilot, it shows the most relevant data with the most information, the rest is discarded. So if the radar has the best data, it discards data from the AWACS, IRST and EW suite. It merely declutters the display. It's only been designed to reduce pilot workload.

With IMA, you have one computer to rule them all. You can't do what IMA does with a federated system.

The article you have posted is about some future version of the Typhoon that didn't exist. So there's no point in repeating it. I'm sure there are articles from that era which spoke of the Typhoon getting an AESA radar as well. Facts speak for themselves. Typhoon's computers are federated, hence no fusion.
It uses algorithms on the data collected first and then combines them, as stated in my FG link.

No, with IMA you can replace each component separately, hence modular, with federated you can't, hence more difficult to upgrade. Modular can apply to any build, it doesn't even have to include sensors or be about planes. Like I said, you don't have a f**king clue what you are talking about. You're literally _Anonymous_ II right now.

The article you posted you mean??? First it states what Typhoon can do, and then states the future, which might include a modular architecture.