Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,957
10,948
India
Uhurr.. that's your excuse, it got 7.5/9 FFS.

You forget that air forces create requirements by basing it on their most advanced aircraft in operation. In the Swiss case it's the Hornet. And all their releases have proven that they compared the three jets to the Hornet.

So any SA, networking etc, will be based on what the Hornet already does. Which means it's unlikely the Swiss considered sensor fusion as a metric. In fact SF will be part of a different points table that allows OEMs to show off "future capability", information which they obviously did not release. It's also the reason why Data Dissemination got very low scores, because the Hornet also uses Link 16.

Even with the recent tenders, the Swiss and Finnish are comparing new jets with the Hornets. And this gives the F-35 an unfair advantage since the Hornets are so old that they are helpless against it. If for example the Rafale has the capability to defeat the F-35 in A-A combat, the Swiss and Finnish will never know it, so it's not necessary that they are making the best decision. Similarly they do not know how well the F-35 will do against the Su-57 either. And we already know for a fact that the Hornet cannot match the Flanker. So, all they know is the F-35 is far superior to the Hornet due to stealth and that's how they are going to make their decision.

What's interesting is the Swiss paid particular attention to stealth and NCW, and not data fusion, in the F-35's testimonial. So that means the other competitors had already accomplished quite a bit in this field, so it became unimportant enough to not be specifically flagged alongside stealth.
 

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
11,720
2,465
You forget that air forces create requirements by basing it on their most advanced aircraft in operation. In the Swiss case it's the Hornet. And all their releases have proven that they compared the three jets to the Hornet.

So any SA, networking etc, will be based on what the Hornet already does. Which means it's unlikely the Swiss considered sensor fusion as a metric. In fact SF will be part of a different points table that allows OEMs to show off "future capability", information which they obviously did not release. It's also the reason why Data Dissemination got very low scores, because the Hornet also uses Link 16.

Even with the recent tenders, the Swiss and Finnish are comparing new jets with the Hornets. And this gives the F-35 an unfair advantage since the Hornets are so old that they are helpless against it. If for example the Rafale has the capability to defeat the F-35 in A-A combat, the Swiss and Finnish will never know it, so it's not necessary that they are making the best decision. Similarly they do not know how well the F-35 will do against the Su-57 either. And we already know for a fact that the Hornet cannot match the Flanker. So, all they know is the F-35 is far superior to the Hornet due to stealth and that's how they are going to make their decision.

What's interesting is the Swiss paid particular attention to stealth and NCW, and not data fusion, in the F-35's testimonial. So that means the other competitors had already accomplished quite a bit in this field, so it became unimportant enough to not be specifically flagged alongside stealth.
There's no evidence for that being the reason at all. It just seems like everyone who selects the F-35 over the Rafale, i.e. everyone who can, is somehow wrong + list of excuses.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Innominate

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,957
10,948
India
There's no evidence for that being the reason at all. It just seems like everyone who selects the F-35 over the Rafale, i.e. everyone who can, is somehow wrong + list of excuses.

The Swiss evaluations were very old. When the evaluations happened, only the M2000, Rafale and F-22 had sensor fusion. The F-35 barely even existed. So it's unlikely for anyone without a military aerospace industry to know enough about sensor fusion to create requirements around it. India also did not ask for sensor fusion during MMRCA. And the Swiss have also not bothered to give any particular emphasis towards sensor fusion. Dunno how this is an excuse.

Now pretty much every jet in the IAF is being upgraded with sensor fusion already.
 

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
11,720
2,465
The Swiss evaluations were very old. When the evaluations happened, only the M2000, Rafale and F-22 had sensor fusion. The F-35 barely even existed. So it's unlikely for anyone without a military aerospace industry to know enough about sensor fusion to create requirements around it. India also did not ask for sensor fusion during MMRCA. And the Swiss have also not bothered to give any particular emphasis towards sensor fusion. Dunno how this is an excuse.

Now pretty much every jet in the IAF is being upgraded with sensor fusion already.
The Typhoon had sensor fusion too. If it was all based around Link 16 then why was the Gripen C down at 6.4? Clearly they had, but certain people can't face reality.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
11,720
2,465
  • Like
Reactions: Innominate

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,957
10,948
India
The Typhoon had sensor fusion too. If it was all based around Link 16 then why was the Gripen C down at 6.4? Clearly they had, but certain people can't face reality.

Nope. It doesn't.

Who knows what other limiting factors the Gripen had? You forget that the Gripen they actually tested was 10 years older than the Rafale and Typhoon. Gripen E barely even exists today. So it's obvious there could be other limitations, problems with the MMI etc. SA isn't just about the datalink.
 

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
11,720
2,465
Nope. It doesn't.

Who knows what other limiting factors the Gripen had? You forget that the Gripen they actually tested was 10 years older than the Rafale and Typhoon. Gripen E barely even exists today. So it's obvious there could be other limitations, problems with the MMI etc. SA isn't just about the datalink.
Yet somehow it managed to score only 2.5% behind the Rafale??? :ROFLMAO:


"The sensor fusion process produces a unique track of a single target which may be reported by several sensors simultaneously, each one providing a subset of target attributes which are compiled to produce an as complete as possible view of the target," Friemer says. Algorithms weigh the reliability of each report before merging them to produce a fused target identity and priority.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AbRaj

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,957
10,948
India
Yet somehow it managed to score only 2.5% behind the Rafale??? :ROFLMAO:


The Typhoon declutters its tracks, it doesn't provide true sensor fusion. All it does it removes tracks that have the least information, whereas Rafale combines multiple tracks to create a single air picture.
 

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
11,720
2,465
The Typhoon declutters its tracks, it doesn't provide true sensor fusion. All it does it removes tracks that have the least information, whereas Rafale combines multiple tracks to create a single air picture.
That's not what the quote says. Who should we believe, you or FlightGlobal? Hmmm....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Innominate

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,957
10,948
India
That's not what the quote says. Who should we believe, you or FlightGlobal? Hmmm....

Yeah, that's the eventual goal. That's not what the Typhoon actually had in 1999 or even 2009.

Maybe it does now in the Tranche 3+, but it didn't have it during the Swiss and MMRCA evals.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,229
796
California
Funny. The french plane had no F4 at the time of offer yet that is what the frenchies offered Swiss and to this day there is still no F4. :unsure:
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,348
1,061
France
WOW look at you and your powers to read minds... All this time I thought the Swiss selected the F-35 because it was $2 billion cheaper to operate than the second place plane and vastly SUPERIOR than the second place plane. :rolleyes:
Thanks to Sleepy Joe.
Vastly superior... It remains to be seen on the field. F35 is the king of training. They even are better in simulator than in real life.
Teleport to December for Finland discussions.
I see a sleepy Joe travel to Finland in mid november.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,527
4,138
74
France
Lol. F-35's "active stealth" is superior than superduper french plane.

Yes it is. Your delusion amuses moi.
Yes but the QR code is a French invention:
QR code under Louis XIV

QR code sous Louis XIV.jpeg
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,229
796
California
Poor England ! two beasts replaced by a turkey.
Only butt hurt french and french plane fanboys talk and think like this. Stop being so butt hurt maybe one day your plane will be selected over the F-35.... Lol! I'm kidding that is never going to happen. No nation in their right mind is going to select a more expensive INFERIOR french plane over the F-35 just because the plane is European.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,957
10,948
India
Funny. The french plane had no F4 at the time of offer yet that is what the frenchies offered Swiss and to this day there is still no F4. :unsure:

That's Rafale's main disadvantage.

The definitive version that the Swiss and Finnish are supposed to operate is yet to fly, should fly next year. But tech evals happen on currently flying versions. If any air force is to evaluate the F4.2, they will need to wait at least until the end of 2023. Since the F4.2 is a generation ahead of the F3R, air forces are unlikely to take paper capabilities into consideration for evaluations. I mean, no one is going to believe in stealth, 360 deg radar, patrol link, GaN etc unless these are actually demonstrated on the Rafale itself, even if on a prototype. Small single-fleet air forces can't afford to risk it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bon Plan

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
11,720
2,465

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
11,720
2,465
Poor England ! two beasts replaced by a turkey.
With a chicken next door.... Bad-dum tish!
That's Rafale's main disadvantage.

The definitive version that the Swiss and Finnish are supposed to operate is yet to fly, should fly next year. But tech evals happen on currently flying versions. If any air force is to evaluate the F4.2, they will need to wait at least until the end of 2023. Since the F4.2 is a generation ahead of the F3R, air forces are unlikely to take paper capabilities into consideration for evaluations. I mean, no one is going to believe in stealth, 360 deg radar, patrol link, GaN etc unless these are actually demonstrated on the Rafale itself, even if on a prototype. Small single-fleet air forces can't afford to risk it.
Conformal radar on a Rafale is unlikely to happen.... ever. The replacement will arrive long before.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Innominate