LOC Flare up: Related news and Discussions

Bornubus

Team Shatrujeet
Specialist
Dec 2, 2017
20
40
Sir.

He is a so called expert.

In armed forces, there is a very popular saying. 'a paper tiger who does not know the difference between his elbow and his *censored*'

His, and I am sorry to use the armed forces parlance here, "balls will fall off" if he actually comes to know the figure of our KIA in post Uri phase. But then, those who know, seldom boast. Unfortunately, we have more of these kinds across forums nowadays.

PS: Don't check him, he knows more than those who know the organization from inside :D
I never claimed to be an expert it's you, yes you who are saying this my little ignorant friend.
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
856
411
I never claimed to be an expert it's you, yes you who are saying this my little ignorant friend.

It is fortunate that you never claimed to be an expert; experts are not coarse and offensive, they know too much to descend to those petty levels. Whoever you are, you are a crass peasant.
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
856
411
I said this to a Pakistani and if you don't like it then deal with it.

Pakistanis, as you obviously never got to learn at school, or at home, are officers and gentlemen, some of them, so pushing them all into one garbage sack when they are guests represents our own bankruptcy of manners.
 
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Bornubus

Team Shatrujeet
Specialist
Dec 2, 2017
20
40
It is fortunate that you never claimed to be an expert; experts are not coarse and offensive, they know too much to descend to those petty levels. Whoever you are, you are a crass peasant.
Nothing wrong being a peasant, India is predominantly a nation of peasant.
 
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RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Dec 2, 2017
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Guys lets stop personal attacks. Please be civil in debates.

I've been observing bonobashi for quite some time now, and I will say that he carries a thick air of arrogance and condescension wherever he goes (peppered with generous doses of overly dramatic moral grandstanding), which makes civil debate quite difficult. Paradoxically, he's also the member that probably writes the most on this website about how he wants objective, civil debate and a blog of high standards with free, open discourse and this and that. I don't know if he even realizes that his attitude and behavior is a major hurdle to the very goal that he claims to be striving towards.
 
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Levina

Social media admin
Dec 2, 2017
137
443
his attitude and behavior is a major hurdle to the very goal that he claims to be striving towards.
Though we have a separate thread on this but I think this should be told here.
Even under the garb of moral lectures if someone is attacking a fellow member then such posts should be reported.
Provocating a member is also against forum etiquette.

@Aashish @nair @Avi @Shashank @Ashwin
 

Seiko

Active member
Dec 1, 2017
234
167
Gods Own Country
Ruthless Strike Across LoC Signals India’s Eye-for-an-Eye Resolve

There is a common saying in the Indian Army that the LoC is one place where a sub-tactical situation can become strategic in less than five minutes. That’s because alongside that state, a host of other situations interplay to give it hype. The context here is about the Pakistani trans-LoC strike, which killed an officer and three jawans of one of India’s finest Infantry units – the 2nd (Royal) Sikh in the Keri sector of Rajouri on 22 December 2017.

A response by the Indian Army on Christmas at Rakh Chikri area of Poonch sector laid low three Pakistan Army personnel, and critically injured some more. Ordinarily, this news would have disappeared from media tickers within hours. However, currently it’s a different situation. How different is it really?

LoC Emerges as the Ground for Messaging
First, 15 months ago, India’s surgical strikes within ten days of losing 20 soldiers in the Uri terror attack sent a clear message of intent that India would no longer accept such actions without an effective response.

Second, the LoC is no longer just a line on the ground separating the two Armies. It’s a place where Pakistan attempts to send a message to the world about the existence of the Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) issue, especially when the situation in the state comes under the total control of India. For many years it has sponsored a proxy war in the state, especially in the Kashmir Valley. It has failed in its attempts to turn the situation in its favour.

Third, currently after a year, and more so of attempting to create turbulence of an extreme kind in the Valley, Pakistan’s efforts have been largely neutralised. This has been done through effective professional military domination of the situation by Indian security forces (SF) led by the Indian Army.

Fourth, in Pakistan, the polity is in turbulence with radical elements attempting to rule the roost.


Deep State on the Lookout for Vulnerabilities
We recently witnessed the lockdown of Islamabad by the Tehreek Labaik Ya Rasool Allah (TLY), a new radical organisation. Jamat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed has founded the Milli Muslim League (MML) to gain political clout. His pre-eminence and that of the JuD/LeT has been under threat by other organisations in the strategic space for political and terror-related power.

Peaceful conditions in J&K do not enhance his image and call for something spectacular. It is not an easy doing with the kind of domination the Indian SF have gained in the hinterland.

The LoC is a little different where troops are strung along its length in large and small deployments, necessitating patrolling and counter infiltration, thus enhancing vulnerabilities. It is these vulnerabilities which the JuD/ISI/Pakistan Army (also known as the deep state) can exploit.

Having operated extensively on the LoC, I can vouch for the above vulnerabilities, and can confirm that it is near impossible to be secure everywhere because all deployments carry an element of risk.

The Indian Army’s vulnerability is higher because of deployment in smaller detachments and sub-units aimed at curbing infiltration. Patrolling is done to dominate gaps.

I can visualise Late Major Ambadas and his men of the 2 Sikh moving from one post to another to take stock, direct, brief, control and simultaneously dominate. That’s what tactical level commanders do all the time. His move was probably waylaid by a combined ambush of Pakistani regulars and a few terrorists, called Border Action Team (BAT).

Rakh Chikri: The Location for Trans-LoC Operation

Within three days, the Indian Army’s very famous 93 Infantry Brigade at Poonch has retaliated by killing three Pakistani soldiers.

This area of the LoC is approximately 120 km by road from Keri, where the Pakistani action was executed (much less as per crow flight), and falls within the responsibility of the Pakistan Army’s 2 POK Brigade located at Rawalakot. Apparently, it is the 59 Baluch deployed at Rakh Chikri where the Indian Army’s trans-LoC operation has been conducted.

This is a well-known landmark. In its vici
nity, major operations were conducted both in 1965 and 1971.

It’s a forested feature (Rakh means forest), approximately a kilometre in depth, with many satellite posts in front. A trans-LoC operation need not be a surgical strike on a precise location such as a terror camp. It can simply be an entry across the LoC by a small body (10-15 soldiers) of well-trained sharp shooters from Special Forces, or the locally deployed Infantry unit, carrying prepared improvised explosive devices (IEDs) with pressure switches for initiation.

Routes of Pakistani patrols and logistics supply are well known to our forward troops as much as ours are known to Pakistan Army. Thus, it’s a question of selection of ground across the LoC where such a tactical level strike is conducted, essentially in the ambush mode followed by more casualties inflicted by concealed IEDs; a safe route for get away to own side is ensured.

Link Between Keri’s Ceasefire Violation and Jadhav
The Pakistan Army has admitted the casualties, but as per its policy, it remains in denial about the entry of Indian troops across the LoC. This has been a consistent policy for long, and was also followed during the September 2016 surgical strikes.

The very frequent transgression of foreign troops into its territory under Pakistan Army control (US Navy Seals strike at Abbotabad and Indian surgical strikes in PoK) has left it red-faced and hence this policy.

Lastly there is an apparent link of the Pakistani action at Keri with the permission for the family of Kulbhushan Jadhav to meet him. Pakistan possibly wished to deliver a message of psychological ascendancy; that it had an alleged Indian spy in custody and could conduct an operation to impose casualties on Indian troops, while having the ‘magnanimity’ to allow the alleged spy’s family to meet him. This despicable approach of the Pakistan establishment is unlikely to ever result in gestures for peace from India.


Ruthless Strike Across LoC Signals India’s Eye-for-an-Eye Resolve - The Quint
 
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Shashank

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
847
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Ban galore
Though we have a separate thread on this but I think this should be told here.
Even under the garb of moral lectures if someone is attacking a fellow member then such posts should be reported.
Provocating a member is also against forum etiquette.

@Aashish @nair @Avi @Shashank @Ashwin

We all have option to report posts which we deemed as unfit. Admins are far more capable and impartial enough to take a call. This is what I do whenever I feel something shouldn't be here.
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
735
551
India
Though we have a separate thread on this but I think this should be told here.
Even under the garb of moral lectures if someone is attacking a fellow member then such posts should be reported.
Provocating a member is also against forum etiquette.

@Aashish @nair @Avi @Shashank @Ashwin
We all have option to report posts which we deemed as unfit. Admins are far more capable and impartial enough to take a call. This is what I do whenever I feel something shouldn't be here.

Frankly, attacking a person is perfectly fine as long as reason is given. The problem is when simply name calling and attack is done without having a single point to make. When the post is just about attacking without any intent to convey a meaningful, actionable point, the problem comes.
 

nair

nair
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Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
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We have mentioned it time and again..... Discuss the "point of view" not the poster.....this is your place and help us in building this place..... We have rules set for discussion... Please follow them.... If you believe any of the post is against the rules....report and move on..... Replying it will end up being deleted along with the reported posts.....Why waste your time and ours by replying it....
 
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Invidious

Jackdaws
Dec 26, 2017
10
10
Bombay
This isn't about Kashmir. For them it's an eternal struggle to the end of times until they triumph over the infidels (in the context of South Asia - that's us). These are the terms that Muslims usually think in when they are engaged in conflict with another people. So yes, you're right, it's a cyclical conflict, and at times it even feels futile, as if we are condemned to engage in tit-for-tat raids losing 3-4 guys at a time indefinitely; but this is the way the Pakistanis have made it. They've made 3 attempts to seize Kashmir, they've fomented at least 2 insurgencies to break up India, and continue to engage in terrorism against our civilians. We have made plenty of attempts and overtures for peace, but the Pakistanis are not going to leave us in peace, and they will force us to play their game - not playing is not at option. So we have no choice but to play their game, and be even better at it than them - the way Israel has learned to do.

The Pakistani mindset seems to be one that will never be able to accept the existence of a Hindu India. This really isn't even about Kashmir, go ahead and give them all of Kashmir today itself, tomorrow we will still be fighting on some other pretext. The real agenda is to wipe out infidels and restore what they think was glorious Islamic rule over the entire subcontinent. The pure, concentrated hate and contempt they have for us as a nation, race (including a lot of not so flattering stereotypes about us, and this fantasy of racial superiority for them), religion, and culture is truly deep and seemingly incurable.

I know it sounds depressing, but from what I see, I'm convinced this is a fight to the finish. Unless all of Pakistan's mindset and ideological system were to miraculously change overnight, the only way this conflict ends is when either the Pakistanis achieve what they really want by wiping us out, or when they end up destroying themselves in the process (which looks more likely, take the example of how they are willfully selling and enslaving their country and their future through CPEC to get a leg up on us). So if someone has to be wiped out to end this cyclical, senseless conflict; I am of the belief that better them than us.

Am not disputing much of what you say. But from my interaction with Pakistanis, the narrative that they peddle to their people is that Hindu India has never accepted the creation of Pakistan. They also see Pakistan as some sort of citadel of Islam. Neither of these points are true - an average Indian could care less about whether that basket case of a country exists or not as far as they don't meddle and the rest of the Islamic world sees Pakistan as nothing but a source of cheap labor or a country where they can go hunting those rare birds.

It has been fascinating to watch them sell themselves off to the Chinese - talk about cutting your nose to spite your face.
 

nair

nair
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
1,729
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Frankly, attacking a person is perfectly fine as long as reason is given. The problem is when simply name calling and attack is done without having a single point to make. When the post is just about attacking without any intent to convey a meaningful, actionable point, the problem comes.
Personal attack may be fine for you.... but not to all..... So let us stick to the rules
 
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RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Dec 2, 2017
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the narrative that they peddle to their people is that Hindu India has never accepted the creation of Pakistan

Yea, I've heard/seen that too (hell, just glance over at a certain other forumn - that mindset is incredibly prevalent). That's the only way to rally the diverse population of an artificial country with very little binding it, except religion, behind a corrupt, self-serving leech of an institution like the Pakistani Army/ISI. But while Pakistan seems to obsess over us day and night, we both know that probably 99% of Indians would love nothing more than to completely forget about Pakistan and never have to deal with them again, if friendship is too much to ask for.

But as I said before, from what I've seen and learned over the course of my life, I think this one is a fight to the finish; and if only one of us is gonna be left standing, better us than them.
 
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bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
856
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Nothing wrong being a peasant, India is predominantly a nation of peasant.

Everything wrong with having the level of knowledge and information about international affairs of a peasant, and coming with pretensions to be something more. Those who admit they are peasants and represent themselves as putting forward the point of view of a peasant gain only respect and consideration. Not those who retire in confusion and gather themselves with such a weak defence.

You waste too much time.
 

RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Dec 2, 2017
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I doubt that ...... look around here itself.

The forum is still stuck in Older Forum and PDF mode. Instead of evolving as members to be able to analyse issues, we see retrograde movement.

What you see is the direct outcome of 70 years of Pakistani aggression, provocation and hostility. More often thrust on us unwillingly than not. You see the exhaustion of a characteristically patient and forgiving country and people. Ideally speaking, I'd love friendship with Pakistan, with a relationship resembling that of Canada and the US as someone prominent once said. They may live in the la la land of being descended from Arabs, Turks, Persians, Mongols and any other group of Muslim invaders who ever rode horses through the subcontinent; but you and I know better. They are genetically our brothers, they are from the same historical civilization and landmass as us, most of them likely the descendants of Hindu converts. If friendship is too much to ask for, I'd settle for a big wall between the two countries, they keep their Kashmir & we keep ours, neither country ever engages the other again in any way shape or form and we both get to forget about each other.

But both of these scenarios are impossible and too bloody much to ask for from Pakistan. And in those circumstances; after the 3 dastardly attempts by Pakistan to seize Kashmir, after their conniving attempts to separate Punjab and Kashmir through insurgencies, after the countless soldiers and innocent civilians they have killed through the most cowardly and despicable forms of terrorism; after that I want the complete and total disintegration of Pakistan. And if you want the truth, after the way they cheer and celebrate attacks like Mumbai and venerate people like Hafiz Saeed, I don't even shed a tear after an APS Peshawar anymore, to be completely honest. I know that's not healthy or human, but THAT is the degree to which Pakistan has exhausted the patience of a lot of Indians - and mind you I'm foreign born and raised, I can't even begin to imagine having to physically live next to Pakistan with the possibility of their dastardly terrorism being an ever-present threat the way countless Indian citizens do.

Hindus and Indians overall are an incredibly tolerant, forgiving, and if nothing else, accomodating people (whether you view it as our benevolence or as the compulsion of a weak, passive and disunited people who frequently faced invaders throughout history). But EVERYONE has a limit, and after 70 years we have reached ours.
 
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