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AbRaj

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Dec 6, 2017
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Republic of Wadiya
Martyrdom in Pakistan is considered celebratory. Sweets are distributed throughout the whole village/neighborhood, feasts are held and songs/poems are sung in praise of the martyr. It brings great honor to family, clan and tribe and is never forgotten.

Our attitudes are different to yours when it comes to this topic, casualties don't affect our morale. I definitely think it does the opposite, whenever there are a series of casualties either civilian or military it hikes national unity and fury against the perpetrators.
Getting killed by a kafir/idol worshipper is not considered as martyrdom I guess. Anyway it definitely doesn't look good as per ispr. Maybe considered good in the society.
 
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bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
856
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"Blessed Are The Peacemakers , For They Shall Be Called The Sons Of God ."

LOLOLOL.

Mathew 5:9

One of my favourite beatitudes.

It's a fair cop, guv'nor. VERY nice touch.
______________________________________________
OK, now don't go blowing my cover.
 
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bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
856
411
Getting killed by a kafir/idol worshipper is not considered as martyrdom I guess. Anyway it definitely doesn't look good as per ispr. Maybe considered good in the society.

Actually, it is. The Arabic root is interesting; it means witness. That is why we get a lot of long faces when we call our Indian martyrs Shaheed, because to be a shaheed, one has to qualify in one of five ways, one of which is a violent death in the cause of the faith.

Two additional points: words travel, and they change. To Indians, Shaheed means a martyr who gave his (or her) life for India; it does not matter that the original meaning confined it to the faithful Muslim. Over time, the meaning has travelled. The second point is that what ISPR decides is not relevant; what society decides, is.
 
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AbRaj

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Dec 6, 2017
955
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Republic of Wadiya
Actually, it is. The Arabic root is interesting; it means witness. That is why we get a lot of long faces when we call our Indian martyrs Shaheed, because to be a shaheed, one has to qualify in one of five ways, one of which is a violent death in the cause of the faith.

Two additional points: words travel, and they change. To Indians, Shaheed means a martyr who gave his (or her) life for India; it does not matter that the original meaning confined it to the faithful Muslim. Over time, the meaning has travelled. The second point is that what ISPR decides is not relevant; what society decides, is.
That makes sense.
But I think society is not always in the driving seat but it is more like passengers in a train being driven by state run mechanism.
Most of the times they make perceptions of good and bad.
 
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bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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That makes sense.
But I think society is not always on the driving seat but it is more like passengers in a train being driven by state run mechanism.
Most of the times they make perceptions of good and bad.

True.

there is a case for dumping the drivers.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
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Dec 2, 2017
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We do need some additional fire power for escalation management. I had high hopes from this dispensation.
 

bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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We do need some additional fire power for Iescalation management. I had high hopes from this dispensation.

I am increasingly of the opinion that our purchases and our forces formations are not mission oriented. We don't need the same things for all. What we need for that sector is completely different from what we need for the Rajasthan frontier, for instance. The whole thing can be divided into a number of missions and this used as a basis for top-to-bottom reorganisation of the military, around these missions, around unified commands.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
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I am increasingly of the opinion that our purchases and our forces formations are not mission oriented. We don't need the same things for all. What we need for that sector is completely different from what we need for the Rajasthan frontier, for instance. The whole thing can be divided into a number of missions and this used as a basis for top-to-bottom reorganisation of the military, around these missions, around unified commands.
In my opinion, the need for forward posts is to have superior fire power. In my observation of Pakistanis, there attitude towards marksmanship and selection of weapon systems is superior to ours. All of the Pakistani Knowledgeable riflemen that I have has an opportunity to have spoken to, took up training early and this seems to be consistent with most of marksmen. What worries me is the extensive training their snipers go through and the new .338 LM system they seem to have procured from turkey along with the small batch of 300 winmag system from US.

When I look at our atrocious bren nests, and SVD's with mish mash of insas for post and AKM's for patrolling, it sends alarm bells in my head. Finally when I see BSF in rajhastan sector posing with craptastic CX4 storms, it boggles my mind what a sub gun would do in border areas with engagement distances of 800 yards.

We need to change caliber, and change it fast with the foresight for the next 5 decades, in the last 10 to 15 years, the ballistic game has changed substantially, Optimized intermediate calibers have become extremely potent and we seem to have the money to change the game, at least for first level of exchanges in border fire by adopting a harder hitting cartridge, better optics, and better sustained fire platforms in bigger caliber.

I had jotted down a few ideas previously, will post them I can find them.
 

bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
856
411
In my opinion, the need for forward posts is to have superior fire power. In my observation of Pakistanis, there attitude towards marksmanship and selection of weapon systems is superior to ours. All of the Pakistani Knowledgeable riflemen that I have has an opportunity to have spoken to very took up training early and this seems to be consistent with most of marksmen. What worries me is the extensive training their snipers go through and the new .338 LM system they seem to have procured from turkey along with the small batch of 300 winmag system from US.

When I look at our atrocious bren nests, and SVD's with mish mash of insas for post and AKM's for patrolling, it sends alarm bells in my head. Finally when I see BSF in rajhastan sector posing with craptastic CX4 storms, it boggles my mind what a sub gun would do in border areas with engagement distances of 800 yards.

We need to change caliber, and change it fast with the foresight for the next 5 decades, in the last 10 to 15 years, the ballistic game has changed substantially, Optimized intermediate calibers have become extremely potent and we seem to have the money to change the game, at least for first level of exchanges in border fire by adopting a harder hitting cartridge, better optics, and better sustained fire platforms in bigger caliber.

I had jotted down a few ideas previously, will post them I can find them.

Dear Sir, Please do not forget to take into account that decades of neglect has lightened in weight, reduced in height and dumbed down large swathes of the peasantry. We actually need to re-model the carrying weight and the combination of arms and ammunition for the regular infantry.

We actually return to the mission orientation.
 

Bornubus

Team Shatrujeet
Specialist
Dec 2, 2017
20
40
It's mutual.
Over 4,500 soldiers killed along LoC in Pak firing since 2001: Army

Darve said, “Ever since the Uri terror attack in September, there has been much noise around the ongoing ceasefire violations. I filed the RTI to understand what the armed forces have faced in the last few years since Kargil (conflict). The figures are shocking and indicate that we lose our jawans more frequently in ceasefire violations than we are told. I plan to write to the government to make all these instances known to the people.”

It's not unusual, casualties are sometimes reported later on as reporting a casualty right away with the time and location is a valuable intel for your enemies.
Absolutely bogus the total fatal casualties at LoC since 2002 is around 300 ~ Army has confirmed this many times.


Its impossible for 2500, its too high for even PA standards.

Now go count the number of heads missing in yesterday's raid.
 

bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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Absolutely bogus the total fatal casualties at LoC since 2002 is around 300 ~ Army has confirmed this many times.


Abhi Pakistanis ke pass etni [email protected] me dam nahin ke 2500 bande mar de hamre. Now go count the number of heads missing in yesterday's raid.

Why can't you keep a civil tongue in your head?
 
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Falcon

Why can't you keep a civil tongue in your head?


Sir.

He is a so called expert.


His, and I am sorry to use the armed forces parlance here, "$#%ls will fall off" if he actually comes to know the figure of our KIA in post Uri phase. But then, those who know, seldom boast. Unfortunately, we have more of these kinds across forums nowadays.

PS: Don't check him, he knows more than those who know the organization from inside :D
 
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Invidious

Jackdaws
Dec 26, 2017
10
10
Bombay
Point is - to what end? This is cyclical. A solution (preferably political) needs to be reached at. Unfortunately, neither side would deviate an inch from their entrenched positions. So we will one day be thumping chest on their dead and the other day expressing condolences over our losses.
 
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bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
856
411
Sir.

He is a so called expert.

In armed forces, there is a very popular saying. 'a paper tiger who does not know the difference between his elbow and his *censored*'

His, and I am sorry to use the armed forces parlance here, "balls will fall off" if he actually comes to know the figure of our KIA in post Uri phase. But then, those who know, seldom boast. Unfortunately, we have more of these kinds across forums nowadays.

PS: Don't check him, he knows more than those who know the organization from inside :D

I'm sorry I commented, but considering that we have members from Pakistan, that was an egregious insult. Apologies.
 

RATHORE

Lion of Rajputana
Dec 2, 2017
1,552
1,949
USA
Point is - to what end? This is cyclical. A solution (preferably political) needs to be reached at. Unfortunately, neither side would deviate an inch from their entrenched positions. So we will one day be thumping chest on their dead and the other day expressing condolences over our losses.

This isn't about Kashmir. For them it's an eternal struggle to the end of times until they triumph over the infidels (in the context of South Asia - that's us). These are the terms that Muslims usually think in when they are engaged in conflict with another people. So yes, you're right, it's a cyclical conflict, and at times it even feels futile, as if we are condemned to engage in tit-for-tat raids losing 3-4 guys at a time indefinitely; but this is the way the Pakistanis have made it. They've made 3 attempts to seize Kashmir, they've fomented at least 2 insurgencies to break up India, and continue to engage in terrorism against our civilians. We have made plenty of attempts and overtures for peace, but the Pakistanis are not going to leave us in peace, and they will force us to play their game - not playing is not at option. So we have no choice but to play their game, and be even better at it than them - the way Israel has learned to do.

The Pakistani mindset seems to be one that will never be able to accept the existence of a Hindu India. This really isn't even about Kashmir, go ahead and give them all of Kashmir today itself, tomorrow we will still be fighting on some other pretext. The real agenda is to wipe out infidels and restore what they think was glorious Islamic rule over the entire subcontinent. The pure, concentrated hate and contempt they have for us as a nation, race (including a lot of not so flattering stereotypes about us, and this fantasy of racial superiority for them), religion, and culture is truly deep and seemingly incurable.

I know it sounds depressing, but from what I see, I'm convinced this is a fight to the finish. Unless all of Pakistan's mindset and ideological system were to miraculously change overnight, the only way this conflict ends is when either the Pakistanis achieve what they really want by wiping us out, or when they end up destroying themselves in the process (which looks more likely, take the example of how they are willfully selling and enslaving their country and their future through CPEC to get a leg up on us). So if someone has to be wiped out to end this cyclical, senseless conflict; I am of the belief that better them than us.
 
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Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
735
551
India
This isn't about Kashmir. For them it's an eternal struggle until the end of times until they triumph over the infidels (in the context of South Asia - that's us). These are the terms that Muslims usually think in when they are engaged in conflict with another people. So yes, you're right, it's a cyclical conflict, and at times it even feels futile, as if we are condemned to engage in tit-for-tat raids losing 3-4 guys at a time indefinitely; but this is the way the Pakistanis have made it. They've made 3 attempts to seize Kashmir, they've fomented at least 2 insurgencies to break up India, and continue to engage in terrorism against our civilians. We have made plenty of attempts and overtures for peace, but the Pakistanis are not going to leave us in peace, and they will force us to play their game - not playing is not at option. So we have no choice but to play their game, and be even better at it than them - the way Israel has learned to do.

The Pakistani mindset seems to be one that will never be able to accept the existence of a Hindu India. This really isn't even about Kashmir, go ahead and give them all of Kashmir today itself, tomorrow we will still be fighting on some other pretext. The real agenda is to wipe out infidels and restore what they think was glorious Islamic rule over the entire subcontinent. The pure, concentrated hate and contempt they have for us as a nation, race (including a lot of not so flattering stereotypes about us, and this fantasy of racial superiority for them), religion, and culture is truly deep and seemingly incurable.

I know it sounds depressing, but from what I see, I'm convinced this is a fight to the finish. Unless all of Pakistan's mindset and ideological system were to miraculously change overnight, the only way this conflict ends is when either the Pakistanis achieve what they really want by wiping us out, or when they end up destroying themselves in the process (which looks more likely, take the example of how they are willfully selling and enslaving their country and their future through CPEC to get a leg up on us). So if someone has to be wiped out to end this cyclical, senseless conflict; I am of the belief that better them than us.

Is it just Pakistan or many others too? Is there something special in the land that people born in it have certain disposition just by virtue of birth?

Anyways, reality is that Jihad is backed by oil money and the vast diplomatic clout that offers. It is possible for India to go oil-free autarkic country by using our own oil supply of 7lakh barrels a day and a few million barrels of coal liquid, but even then, many other countries desperately need oil and are likely to back the oil might.

If anyone thinks that today's war free world is due to nuclear bombs and the so called MAD scenario, he is seriously wrong. It is not nuclear bombs but oil flow that is stopping the war. If war happens, then the oil supply to the enemy country is likely to be cut off while other countries get continued oil supply, creating a massive imbalance. In this case, Pakistan has backing of oil barons and in case of massive all out war, even if India destroys Pakistan, the other countries like Europe, USA will be enjoying the scenario, getting their oil supply and growing in strength, may be even supplying arms while India takes a beating alone, even facing oil embargo from Arabs for reconstruction. Pakistan knows this and hence is acting in a brazen manner.
 
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