Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

Saaho

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Dec 27, 2019
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@Falcon How common is it for the military commanders to talk and not 'crats or politicians?

The ONLY reason I can see for that is 'crats and 'ticians want to avoid the blame. They will later say "Armed forces were given full freedom!" or "decision was taken by military" or some shit like that. Meanwhile full freedom means "If the hit you with iron rod, you can show your banner FREELY" and "You are FREE to fire BUT you should ensure your own 1000s casualities before that".
 
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Sanglamorre

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@Falcon How common is it for the military commanders to talk and not 'crats or politicians?

The ONLY reason I can see for that is 'crats and 'ticians want to avoid the blame. They will later say "Armed forces were given full freedom!" or "decision was taken by military" or some shit like that. Meanwhile full freedom means "If the hit you with iron rod, you can show your banner FREELY" and "You are FREE to fire BUT you should ensure your own 1000s casualities before that".
Yeah, no one is going to buy that first of all, and if they blame the military... They're guaranteeing their political suicide because no one wants to touch that hornet's nest with 10 foot barge pole and get their nationalism questioned.

It's a holy cow above reproach and BJP with their soldiers in Siachen rhetoric have amplified that. (I'm not saying anything negative about military, I'm pointing out it's position in the Indian politics). Opposition will rip them to shreds.

Modi will be soundly blamed and the best case scenario will be Shah having to do an orchestrated Brutus and Ceasar Modi politically. Worst case, "Neheru atleast fought '62 " gets traction and BJP is finished. There's only one way, and banning Pubg isn't it.
 

Sanglamorre

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Its not as much as Modi covering his posteriors but deep state covering theirs.
Yeah, and Modi and his merry band wouldn't want to wait a decade and a half again to come to power. If with this kind of public mandate this collapse happens, it's not deep state, but Modi and BJP.

Worst case they can come out and fully name these deep state people. It'll be full on mayhem.
 
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Saaho

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Yeah, and Modi and his merry band wouldn't want to wait a decade and a half again to come to power. If with this kind of public mandate this collapse happens, it's not deep state, but Modi and BJP.
Modi is sort of banking on one thing : the message which echoed quite a few times, "there is not alternative to Modi" or "rest are even worse". They will try to cling to power, may be not as comfortably as they were before. Anyways, lets leave this discussion. There is enough OT here and I am the prime culprit behind it. :)
 
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Jaymax

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Apr 1, 2019
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3rd Rock from the Sun
Even if Modi manages to avoid a conflict this time by making concessions to China, what happens next? They will come back for the full lake. They will come back and take more land. They know Modi has no appetite for an open conflict. What stops them from repeating their modus operandi

Sneak in. Build forces. Build structures. Threaten war. Hold talks and walk away with concessions.


Problem is not the deep state or the dabba wallas. Problem is a motor mouth govt. and its chamchas who went so over board in their rhetoric that now everyone is having to eat their words and media pimps are having to glorify banning apps as a "Digital Strike". India has lost the opportunity to force a return to the old status.

Modi once made a tweet - Problem is not at LAC. Its in Delhi. Today Modi IS the problem.

Banning those apps won't hurt China. Its a mere pin prick on the butt of a big fat buffalo. It will make some noise and then go back to chewing cud while lazing in a pond. China still has our land. It has shown to the world that you can mess with India and it will just move its forces for a formality and look at the ground while shifting weight awkwardly from one foot to the other like a school boy unsure of himself.

Our messaging was
1. We want peace
2. Its china's fault. We won't accept this
3. Lets talk

If there was an iota of truth in statement 2, there should have been only one way ahead. India should have issued a time bound ultimatum to China - withdrawal or war.

We stand exposed in front of the world and no matter how many times you shell the living hell out of Pakistan this won't change.
 
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Saaho

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Even if Modi manages to avoid a conflict this time by making concessions to China, what happens next? They will come back for the full lake. They will come back and take more land. They know Modi has no appetite for an open conflict. What stops them from repeating their modus operandi

Sneak in. Build forces. Build structures. Threaten war. Hold talks and walk away with concessions.
I guess it works for IAS in Mantralayas.
Its like soviet in WW2. Our country is big, we have lot of land to retreat. Till Stalin issued "Not a step back" order.

We don't have anyone like that anywhere in our leadership, nor our lands are as big.

PS : Just to be sure the above is an analogy. Its not a remark on soldiers but on Babus. "Not a step back" is needed for south block.
 
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Jaymax

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I guess it works for IAS in Mantralayas.
Its like soviet in WW2. Our country is big, we have lot of land to retreat. Till Stalin issued "Not a step back" order.

We don't have anyone like that anywhere in our leadership, nor our lands are as big.
Blame Nehru, Blame Congress, Blame IAS ... the Blame lies with the leadership. Everyone knows the truth. The leader should have taken a call. The leader shied away from that call.
 

Saaho

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Dec 27, 2019
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Blame Nehru, Blame Congress, Blame IAS ... the Blame lies with the leadership. Everyone knows the truth. The leader should have taken a call. The leader shied away from that call.
To be honest, these days I feel a bit sick and pathetic blaming livings and especially blaming deads. They came out of us. IAS are almost always out of middle to upper middle class. Their thinking and values are very quintessential our thinking and values. So... I guess we are to blame ourselves.
 

jetray

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Mar 15, 2018
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Blame Nehru, Blame Congress, Blame IAS ... the Blame lies with the leadership. Everyone knows the truth. The leader should have taken a call. The leader shied away from that call.
we need to blame ourselves for electing idiots, whats the point in blaming the world when we ourselves created it. leaders dont take the call bcos ppl dont care abt it. No one is going to win the elections on chinese issue but on caste, so lets pander to the caste rather than solving the chinese issue.
 
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Sulla84

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vikata

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Jan 5, 2018
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LOL 'Breakthrough'!

View attachment 16710

@Falcon How do you folks even agree to serve under these loser 'crats and 'ticians... Dabba wallahz and PMs?
Why you always keep ranting about "dabbas and politician"??

And what is so special about the @Falcon that he can't serve under them, both are part of the society . People in armed forces too come from the society and have the same moral compass.

Do you think that Indian military is unblemished??

1) a military which can't even decide which caliber rifle to be purchased and set a requirements which entire world failed to meet.

2) all those support for the Russian tin can even at the expense of desi industry

3) obsolescence by trial

4) army which had the Aircraft carrier but not the winter clothes in 62 war, was that also prioritised by the political class??
5) army which has the budget more than the entire budget of Pakistan yet says "out ranged by the AMrAam".
6) IAf which has a budget more than the defense budget of PAF, yet couldn't deliver a spectacular all out victory in any war be it 62,65,71 or a limited but shoddy at best balakot.
7) if you continues to raise question about the balakot it simple means IAF failed to convince you not the prime minister .


What quality had the generals like BM kaul, Deepak kapoor, JJ singh,VP malik etc to be qualified as a role model.


It is infact politician who has covered the posterior of Indian military many a times.


You can criticise Nehru all you want but he ensured we claim the border, which barring akshai chin is still more or less part of LAC. If left to the army LAC would have been substantially different.

If army was in bad shape in 62 wasn't it the responsibility of the generals to apprise him of the situation??

Was it Nehru who was on the ground making strategies or were the generals??
When army simply folded up and you think the politician should have faith in them. Nehru's immediate demand for usaf personnel along with their fighters should indicate his faith in the army during that time. If army top brass had simply told the prime minister bluntly that they are in a pathetic condition and can't face the Chinese Army do you think any sane politician would have given go ahead?


In 65 it was the shastri who had the audacity to open Punjab front. Why he was forced to open that front??
The reason being sub optimal performance of Indian Army on loc.

wasn't indian army caught napping in kargil and it was the Vajpayee who put all his political capital on the line to cover the failure. modi also didn't escalated after 27 feb ,may be he was less than impressed by the performance of IAF.


the only significant achievement of Indian Army in all out war was in Bangladesh and that too with the support of mukti bahini.


and after listing all this I want to simply ask how many generals have been held responsible and been punished??
in Israel a lot of generals were removed after 6 day war.


infact in India military has been never scrutinised and they have been always placed above the pedestal. it's always the political class who has suffered on account of incompetence of military in the face of electoral setback.


and what your grudge about bureaucracy, they have their shortcomings but is their any organ of the government /society which can claim that they are perfect? like any other organs of the states they too have fair share of success and failure.

so if you want to rant, keep it to minimum, no body wants to read page after page the word like "dabbas and what not". Which sounds so repetitive and bereft of substance. We live in a democracy not under the boot of the military where people in the armed forces are any special, like political class army too represent the microcosm of Indian society with all its virtues and vice.
 

Sanglamorre

Active member
Jul 4, 2019
137
204
Kolkata
The last option I see that doesn't mount a political cost as well as allowed India to de escalate is... Punish our favourite whipping boy in the West. Visible, brutal punishment.
 

Defc0n

Well-Known member
Sep 8, 2019
352
339
India


I really hope that India doesn't de-escalate and de-induct our troops. This will be a disaster from Indian point of view.
Covid is a hindrance, but we cannot expect our enemy to be so kind where they will wait for our problems to be over before attacking. We should be able to defend the integrity of our country irrespective of any situation. That's the expectation from a professional army and a capable government.
If what falcon says is true and we will find out eventually, this will be really shameful from our perspective.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
7,784
5,195
India
Even if Modi manages to avoid a conflict this time by making concessions to China, what happens next? They will come back for the full lake. They will come back and take more land. They know Modi has no appetite for an open conflict. What stops them from repeating their modus operandi

Sneak in. Build forces. Build structures. Threaten war. Hold talks and walk away with concessions.


Problem is not the deep state or the dabba wallas. Problem is a motor mouth govt. and its chamchas who went so over board in their rhetoric that now everyone is having to eat their words and media pimps are having to glorify banning apps as a "Digital Strike". India has lost the opportunity to force a return to the old status.

Modi once made a tweet - Problem is not at LAC. Its in Delhi. Today Modi IS the problem.

Banning those apps won't hurt China. Its a mere pin prick on the butt of a big fat buffalo. It will make some noise and then go back to chewing cud while lazing in a pond. China still has our land. It has shown to the world that you can mess with India and it will just move its forces for a formality and look at the ground while shifting weight awkwardly from one foot to the other like a school boy unsure of himself.

Our messaging was
1. We want peace
2. Its china's fault. We won't accept this
3. Lets talk

If there was an iota of truth in statement 2, there should have been only one way ahead. India should have issued a time bound ultimatum to China - withdrawal or war.

We stand exposed in front of the world and no matter how many times you shell the living hell out of Pakistan this won't change.
India's demand of withdraw or war seems to be the narrative in China.

1. The Chinese side withdrew from the north bank of Bangong Lake.

2. The Chinese side withdrew their troops from the Gallevan Valley and restored to their original state in important strategic areas.

3. China reduces the deployment of "deep areas" on the side of the disputed border.

4. Restore the original state of the Kiam hot spring area.

5. China has stopped military assembly in the disputed area.

6. The Chinese side resumed its deployment before the beginning of April.

7. The Indian army is ready for a full-scale war, no longer abides by the relevant agreement between the two armies not to use hot weapons or sharp cold weapons during the confrontation, and has authorized the front commander of the Indian army to deal with China on the border between China and India. Completely free".
 

Saaho

Well-Known member
Dec 27, 2019
949
782
Canada
Why you always keep ranting about "dabbas and politician"??
If a business goes down under, who do you point at the most? Those who own the power to make decisions the most. Thankfully in a lot of business folks are forced to have skin in the game. Bureaucracy shields you from exactly that. Politicians can misdirect attention to an major extent but sooner or later they have a reckoning. Either personally or to their party. We are a democracy after all. I guess that should answer your question why do I rant about "Dabbas" and "Politicians".

I can do a point by point rebuttal of rest of your post but thats not even the point here. You wanted to know my reason, there you have it.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
4,611
2,466
If a business goes down under, who do you point at the most? Those who own the power to make decisions the most. Thankfully in a lot of business folks are forced to have skin in the game. Bureaucracy shields you from exactly that. Politicians can misdirect attention to an major extent but sooner or later they have a reckoning. Either personally or to their party. We are a democracy after all. I guess that should answer your question why do I rant about "Dabbas" and "Politicians".

I can do a point by point rebuttal of rest of your post but thats not even the point here. You wanted to know my reason, there you have it.
War is different from a Business

War affects the entire country

And in our CASE , a Two front war is A Certainty

So that means more sacrifice ,more pain for the entire country and population

Be ready to see Government impose Financial Emergency in the country

Anything is possible

And since a Two Front war will happen
We must portray ourselves as victims
In order to get world help and support

If we start a war , all support and sympathy will be lost
 
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