Half of this is fiction by Ajay Shukla. There is no reason to insist on meteor. It's not a silver bullet. Raven is a disastrous choice on cost and viability.Fellas may be we should keep discussion on LCA. This MR-BS drama can go in its own thread.
Now this is an older article but very pertinent.
'It is almost as if there is a death wish for the Tejas'
The contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.www.rediff.com
I Quote
@Milspec @vstol Jockey OR anyone else, Is there anything that I am missing here. Why do forces let HAL make stupid and suboptimal choices? There were more than one european radars. Leonardo SELEX's Raven, Saab and Thales. Why.... not take SELEX's Raven?
LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions
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Fellas may be we should keep discussion on LCA. This MR-BS drama can go in its own thread.
Now this is an older article but very pertinent.
'It is almost as if there is a death wish for the Tejas'
The contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.
I Quote
@Milspec @vstol Jockey OR anyone else, Is there anything that I am missing here. Why do forces let HAL make stupid and suboptimal choices? There were more than one european radars. Leonardo SELEX's Raven, Saab and Thales. Why.... not take SELEX's Raven?
The radar tender was to make the 2052 offer cheaper than what was initially offered, a dog and pony show for the Israeli radar. The European radars were unrealistic because of the work already done on the 2052 for Mk1A. It would also have become very difficult to integrate the Indo-Israeli EW suite with a European radar. The Israelis were just being greedy.
The Meteor for LCA wasn't a priority anyway, due to the failure to get the same equipped on MKI.
Lol, what's the basis for buying that many F404s in the first place? Expanding the LCA Mk1A line was an afterthought. And relax, the delay is just 1 year, all the ordered LCAs will still be delivered before schedule regardless of the starting issues. The contract is based on 16 jets a year, production's been expanded to 24, sufficient enough to make up for the delay.
Having a common missile is important, regardless of whether a particular jet can use the max range of the weapon or not. Due to CEC, any jet can use any weapon on any aricraft today. While LCA could be the one carrying the Meteor, the Rafale could be the one firing the missile using its own radar.
AWACS and satellites have nothing to do with this.
With the MKI losing the chance to get Meteor, the missile lost its value to the LCA program too. That's about it. Now we have to see how well we can integrate the MRFA into our more indigenous force.
We are not at a level to cushion the program spending that much.
1. What if Tejas turned like Arjun tank
2. What if GE 404 got upgraded significantly
3. What if Mk2 got developed earlier..
So many unknown factors.. because tejas is the first fighter developed along with R&D infrastructure. .
----+++
Thing that's pissing me off is not funding TEDBF & Not clubbing with ORCA.
If we are that sensible we should have funded tedbf a year back.
We aren't doing that, no need to ask for stocking up engines for the first developed fighter.
With regards to radar, French Thales presented radar for Tejas and also for Su 30 upg..
But Israeli supplied GaN radar with source codes, cheaper and integration with other systems were easier.
There were helping with whatever we wanted.
Even that was a interim requirement because we were developing Uttam.
I doubt any European radar would have given such.
The commonality aspect may have something to do with it. EL/M-2052 is essentially Elta 2032++ with AESA antenna. (MMR has 2032 front-end)Fellas may be we should keep discussion on LCA. This MR-BS drama can go in its own thread.
Now this is an older article but very pertinent.
'It is almost as if there is a death wish for the Tejas'
The contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.
I Quote
@Milspec @vstol Jockey OR anyone else, Is there anything that I am missing here. Why do forces let HAL make stupid and suboptimal choices? There were more than one european radars. Leonardo SELEX's Raven, Saab and Thales. Why.... not take SELEX's Raven?
Simpler integration due to common softwar and hardware.
Also 2052 was first chosen for the Jag D3 upgrade. At the time, Elta put a condition that the IAF field the radar on at least 2 ac types, the other being the LCA.
I think Elta were consultants to LRDE on Uttam. Maybe we got a cheaper price.
The way forward for GE is to get all those components made in India by Indians. We will shorten the time for delivery
That would have been a concern if we were talking about Astra.
Given that Meteor is not our main BVR system, it doesn't really matter now. Given that only the 36 Rafales can fire it.
The way forward should be that we get push for licence production of GE 404 just like we are for 414.
The IAF has been pushing for Meteor on MKI since long before Astra. MBDA killed the IAF's dream in 2018, roughly around the time HAL ran the tender for Mk1A's radar, at least for foreign radars.
Anyway I don't think the IAF will give up on Meteor once Uttam comes along. And the Europeans too have an interest in seeing India move away from the Russian ramjet on SFDR.
Was never an option. The F404 is industrially more important for GE. We also underestimated our LCA numbers. The supply chain issues came as a surprise too.
The best way is to dump anything which is American. They will continue to cheat us and flop our designs to somehow make us their slave. Even if we buy their 4th Gen fighters like Teens, they will retain the ability to have a kill switch and ensure that when we want them, the aircraft engines will not even start. They gave wrong info to IN when NLCA was being developed and I was the one who told IN about in in 2016. After that ADA agreed that they had over engineered the landing cart of NLCA.
Another LCA manufacturing line by private sector economically unviable
A separate manufacturing line for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) by the private sector is economically unviable, sources said ruling out any such possibility while stating that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will have capability to produce 24 jets next year with the private industry involved in a big way. This has one of the suggestions from various quarters to speed up the delayed LCA production.
“A single type of aircraft is not produced by two different companies anywhere in the world. It will be too much duplication, will increase costs and is economically unviable. Private sector will be involved more and more in the current programme with HAL being the lead integrator,” an informed source said. For instance, in addition to the big companies, there are also 270 Micro, Small, and Medium Enterprises (MSME) working with HAL.
Now the LCA orders are for 180 aircraft beyond the earlier 40, which is a sizeable number. So HAL has gone for a third line, next year the production rate of the LCA will reach 24 aircraft per year, the source noted. Deliveries of the LCA-Mk1A by HAL to the Indian Air Force (IAF) have been delayed, in a major part due to non-delivery of F-404 engines by General Electric. The engine manufacturer has only two engines with which HAL will be able to handover two jets to the IAF this fiscal, sources said.
On the LCA-Mk1A, integration of the Israeli radar has been completed while weapon integration is on, sources said which includes air to air and air to ground weapons. The aircraft will be delivered while the integration will take sometime, sources said.
In 2021, the Defence Ministry had signed a ₹48,000 crore deal with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to supply 83 LCA-Mk1A, a more capable fighter than the current LCA-MK1 in service. As per contract, three jets were scheduled to be delivered to the IAF in February 2024 and 16 aircraft per year for subsequent five years. An order for 97 additional LCA-Mk1A is under process.
In September 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security gave sanction for the development of the LCA-Mk2 at a total cost of ₹9,000 crore, a bigger and more capable fighter than the present LCA, and is currently under development. The LCA-Mk2 will be powered by the GE F-414 engine which produces 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the GE-404 engine powering the LCA Mk1 and MK1A. Discussions are in advanced stages for license manufacturing the engine in India. “Commercial terms of the agreement are being negotiated between HAL and GE. It is expected to be concluded this financial year,” sources said.
On the LCA-Mk2, IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal A. P. Singh said last month that it is supposed to do its first flight by October 2025 and by December 2027 is supposed to be end of the Research & Development phase. Officials had stated that deliveries of the LCA-MK2 are expected to commence from 2032 by which time the deliveries of all 180 LCA-MK1A are expected to be completed. As of now, the IAF has committed to procuring around 120 LCA-Mk2.
In September, then IAF Chief ACM V.R. Chaudhari while stating that while HAL remain the lead, suggested more public-private partnerships or joint ventures with private partners to ramp up production of the LCA. “Our present orders of 83 LCA-Mk1As, which will be followed up with 97 more, will definitely take a few years to fructify. The way forward is to diversify the production lines, have more public-private partnerships or joint ventures with private partners to have multiple weaponry lines as well as multiple production lines,” he had said.
“That is the way we can catch up with our requirements and be able to export to other nations as well,” he added while stressing that HAL should take the lead in any model evolved.
Sources within the government said that such a move would lead to too much duplication, will increase costs, and is economically unviable
A separate manufacturing line for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) by the private sector is economically unviable, sources said ruling out any such possibility while stating that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will have capability to produce 24 jets next year with the private industry involved in a big way. This has one of the suggestions from various quarters to speed up the delayed LCA production.
“A single type of aircraft is not produced by two different companies anywhere in the world. It will be too much duplication, will increase costs and is economically unviable. Private sector will be involved more and more in the current programme with HAL being the lead integrator,” an informed source said. For instance, in addition to the big companies, there are also 270 Micro, Small, and Medium Enterprises (MSME) working with HAL.
Now the LCA orders are for 180 aircraft beyond the earlier 40, which is a sizeable number. So HAL has gone for a third line, next year the production rate of the LCA will reach 24 aircraft per year, the source noted. Deliveries of the LCA-Mk1A by HAL to the Indian Air Force (IAF) have been delayed, in a major part due to non-delivery of F-404 engines by General Electric. The engine manufacturer has only two engines with which HAL will be able to handover two jets to the IAF this fiscal, sources said.
On the LCA-Mk1A, integration of the Israeli radar has been completed while weapon integration is on, sources said which includes air to air and air to ground weapons. The aircraft will be delivered while the integration will take sometime, sources said.
In 2021, the Defence Ministry had signed a ₹48,000 crore deal with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to supply 83 LCA-Mk1A, a more capable fighter than the current LCA-MK1 in service. As per contract, three jets were scheduled to be delivered to the IAF in February 2024 and 16 aircraft per year for subsequent five years. An order for 97 additional LCA-Mk1A is under process.
In September 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security gave sanction for the development of the LCA-Mk2 at a total cost of ₹9,000 crore, a bigger and more capable fighter than the present LCA, and is currently under development. The LCA-Mk2 will be powered by the GE F-414 engine which produces 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the GE-404 engine powering the LCA Mk1 and MK1A. Discussions are in advanced stages for license manufacturing the engine in India. “Commercial terms of the agreement are being negotiated between HAL and GE. It is expected to be concluded this financial year,” sources said.
On the LCA-Mk2, IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal A. P. Singh said last month that it is supposed to do its first flight by October 2025 and by December 2027 is supposed to be end of the Research & Development phase. Officials had stated that deliveries of the LCA-MK2 are expected to commence from 2032 by which time the deliveries of all 180 LCA-MK1A are expected to be completed. As of now, the IAF has committed to procuring around 120 LCA-Mk2.
In September, then IAF Chief ACM V.R. Chaudhari while stating that while HAL remain the lead, suggested more public-private partnerships or joint ventures with private partners to ramp up production of the LCA. “Our present orders of 83 LCA-Mk1As, which will be followed up with 97 more, will definitely take a few years to fructify. The way forward is to diversify the production lines, have more public-private partnerships or joint ventures with private partners to have multiple weaponry lines as well as multiple production lines,” he had said.
“That is the way we can catch up with our requirements and be able to export to other nations as well,” he added while stressing that HAL should take the lead in any model evolved.
Might be political input. Sweden,Uk, Germany and Italy have zero political spine and will buckle to US if whitehouse sneezes.Fellas may be we should keep discussion on LCA. This MR-BS drama can go in its own thread.
Now this is an older article but very pertinent.
'It is almost as if there is a death wish for the Tejas'
The contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.
I Quote
@Milspec @vstol Jockey OR anyone else, Is there anything that I am missing here. Why do forces let HAL make stupid and suboptimal choices? There were more than one european radars. Leonardo SELEX's Raven, Saab and Thales. Why.... not take SELEX's Raven?
France and Israel are different, and thus preferred suppliers.
And then there is costs, Italian defence firms are the most weasel"y" folks out there. Not one straight word comes out of these guys.
You realise, that IAF really WANTS Meteor on more platforms as compared to just Rafale. I am sure they must be having good reason to prefer Meteor. They really fought tooth and nail to get Meteor integrated into EL/W 2052. And they even went as far as asking for Meteor integration in Mirage for crying out loud!
IAF indeed wants this missile and yes, A2A missiles matter. Look at all the emergency procurement for A2A missile done by IAF post 2019 fiasco.
This is patently false. It is EXTREMELY big issue. A competent missile is the difference between the pilot who goes home and the one who has to drink tea in Pakistan.
Do you have counter sources?
I never quite understand this part of Indian mentality.
What if? part.
That completely ignores the present reality.
Q : What if Tejas turned like Arjun tank?
Well, we will put F404 in trainers or drones. Engine like F404 is very very versatile. And by 2010, we knew Tejas is NOT going to turn into Arjun anyway. Even if you argue about 2010, then surely by 2016 we knew because Tejas was very close to FoC. There was NEVER any reason to wait till 2021.
Q : What if GE 404 got upgraded significantly
Does it matter at all? What will GE 404 get upgraded into? A hypersonic engine? NEVER! For its purpose, F404IN6 was fit, is fit and will always be fit no matter what alien technology F404 is integrated with. Lastly, roadmap of F404 was well known. There is no chance in hell F404 will see any upgrade that will outclass F404IN6.
Q : What if Mk2 got developed earlier
Again, does not matter at all. We have such a MASSIVE shortfall of fighters that there will always be space for Mk2 and Mk1A. Besides, there is no way in the hell Mk2 will outpace Mk1 or Mk1A. Its a redesign of a fighter in a different weight class. Mk2 was and is never going to be a light fighter like Mk1 or Mk1A.
All of these reflect a stupid part of Indian psyche. Saving bucks at even the cost of life and nation. All of this "What if" and "But SOMETIMES!!!" is a stupid ultraconservative thinking that is pervasive in South Block that is killing Indian defence preparedness. And that is in the face of a very present and clear danger that China Pakistan is.
Counter source? What does that mean? How do you prove the non-existence of something?
What is the source of Ajay Shukla's claim? He is the same guy who told us stories about the "Rafale scam". He is the one who pushed the doctored document made by N Ram of The Hindu. His access has been cut off for a long time now.
No, the IAF did not "insist" on having the Meteor on the LCA and MKI. It would be good to have them. It's foolish to think we should switch the Israeli radar to European just to integrate Meteor.
Look, here is a basic rule of war. You fight with what you have on hand. Right now, Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A are finished in development. Not ramping up their production is basically completely stupid in the face of failing Mig-21s and Mig-29s and even massive shortfall of our sqadrons. Its not only raising the risk on IAF but also wasting the expense we made in developing Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A.
IAF even demanded Meteor to be integrated with Mirage of all planes. They are indeed desprate for Meteor.
AFAIK, Israel does not have GaN TRMs in their currently offered Radar. If we were to make a purchase in 100s, sure as hell likes of Thales and Selex will offer us source code.
Thales mentioned to share source code for MMRCA in 2008 or so.
How is that even a factor? Pakistan often practices and operates UAE's Rafales. So dump that too? Pakistan also operates French Subs. So dump our Scorpenes too? Pakistan also operates a number of RD-33s too. So dump Russia engines too? Tomorrow if Russia sells Helicopters to Pakistan, will India dump its own helicopters too?
This is pure stupidity IMHO. Just because SAAB and Raven provide some products to Pakistan or pitched to sell some products to Pakistan, we should not dump that product.