LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India
Indeed, I was talking about this just recently with the PL-15 claimed range being apples-oranges with proven BVR systems deployed.

The PL-15 is the first operational missile of its class, ie, dual thrust motor, AESA seeker etc. And it's being severely underestimated for some reason outside Chinese circles.

Western analysts claim it's capable of 150+ Km, hence an underestimation. And on the other side the Chinese are claiming it's capable of 300-350Km, perhaps an overestimation, perhaps not.

Of course, the Chinese numbers are at an unknown altitude. And western analysts like playing down non-western systems so they throw around numbers that are acceptable to their psyche. But that's at the cost of creating false equivalence with existing western systems.

The only thing we can say for sure is all existing BVR missiles save for Meteor have been outclassed by the PL-15. It's pretty incredible the kind of lead the Chinese have taken. It's no surprise that the Americans were caught sleeping, but even the Japanese are 7 years away from matching/exceeding the PL-15 with the JNAAM. And I'm sure the Chinese are going to drop more such bombs on us over the next few years.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: JustCurious

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,328
627
Mumbai
That's not how SAMs work though.

SAMs have to obey the laws of physics, so they cannot shoot beyond radar horizon on their own. For both S-400 and MRSAM, the horizon is at 30-40Km against a low level target. For example, the PAF can fire RAAD from well beyond that distance while flying at low level. That is the point of standoff weapons. Also acquiring and shooting down small targets like fighter jets is also not easy as the distance increases.

The S-400's fighter-jet specific missile has a range of 120Km when the target is at high altitude, and the MRSAM's range is 100Km. If the fighter jet is at low altitude, then the missile's range also decreases. So all I need is a 120Km range SAAW to be able to safely fire my weapon and leave when flying at high altitude. This is what standoff means, the ability to attack your enemy beyond the range of their defensive capabilities. The S-400's longer-ranged missiles can be defeated by dropping down to a low altitude, below the ground radar's radar horizon.

Also, the PAF cannot go unchallenged. We can't afford to have them firing at us and then letting them go after that. Which is why Abhinandan crossed the LoC. Such a move can only be done by jets that are scrambled because only scrambled jets can create surprise. The jets on CAP cannot as the enemy will know the exact number and type before engaging them. Stealth jets on CAP can also create surprise, but we don't have any.
Do not try to intimidate s400 & Indian military fan boys. As per them, once s400 arrives in India PAF will flee towards their pakistan border.
 

vvabhiram

Well-Known member
Sep 18, 2019
175
320
Andhra Pradesh
Is HAL ready with all specs of MK1A developed and tested ? Or will they start developing those 43 improvements over FoC variant in this 3 year period ?
 

Tatvamasi

Well-Known member
Jan 5, 2018
469
380
India
 

Killbot

Active member
Jun 3, 2019
300
119
Bangalore
45696 cr for 83 a/c's,
So 76.465 Million per a/c... (at 72rs per usd)
Is it just me or is that a tad bit expensive for LCA?
It includes R&D cost, production line cost, engine, avionics etc. I'm not an expert, but I think it is quite reasonable, all things considered.
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
1,499
1,397
Bangalore
Is HAL ready with all specs of MK1A developed and tested ? Or will they start developing those 43 improvements over FoC variant in this 3 year period ?
Almost all the new subsystems and structural changes are being tested on various LSP Frames. So should not be a problem.

What will be interesting to know is the promised weight reduction of 1000kgs to around 5500kgs by removing 300kg balast weight and reduction in weight of landing gear. If they do achieve it will make Tejas MK1A a Rocket due very high TWR. Though I would be happy if they even achieve reduction of 500kgs....☺️
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India
Almost all the new subsystems and structural changes are being tested on various LSP Frames. So should not be a problem.

What will be interesting to know is the promised weight reduction of 1000kgs to around 5500kgs by removing 300kg balast weight and reduction in weight of landing gear. If they do achieve it will make Tejas MK1A a Rocket due very high TWR. Though I would be happy if they even achieve reduction of 500kgs....☺️

I'll be happy if they maintain the weight at 6.5T empty. 6T would be very good. 5.5T is just a dream, I doubt it's going to be possible.
 

JustCurious

Member
Aug 2, 2020
70
58
India
Do not try to intimidate s400 & Indian military fan boys. As per them, once s400 arrives in India PAF will flee towards their pakistan border.
I don't understand any of this - missiles, defence-tech. etc. & I admit as much. My mediocre Electronics Engg. education has little bearing with what I now do for a living, so I don't have the gall or even a reason to pretend otherwise.

I merely re-produce what our serving & Retd. IAF officials mention in public, on record.

Thankfully, I ain't no nimc*mp*op perennially-whining crybaby like @Hydra who resorts to ad-hominem without reading a post in entirety & without possessing the fundamental gumption to assimilate what my aforementioned post conveyed - your misguided wannabe-sarcasm was in fact a sorry damp squib, directed at IAF officials - who publicly talked about this changed airpower scenario, after S400 & Rafale induction.

So, IAF officials = Fanboys, in Hon'rable Hydra's world-view.

The number of people on this forum who understand defence-tech. can be counted on fingers of any 1 hand.

But sure, our resident sulking-carping Hydra-baby here is a omniscient AI-powered Quantum-techie whose timeless wisdom is the something that IAF officials can barely grasp :LOL: :LOL:
 

JustCurious

Member
Aug 2, 2020
70
58
India
We don't have a reference for the S-400 package, so we don't know much about its pricing. But it should have benefitted from the lower exchange rate. Other than that, even with cheaper rates, we are not really interested in importing from Russia anymore. Most of our current deals are just continuation of our older deals signed more than a decade ago, like the Mig-29s, MKIs, Talwar, Akula, Phalcon etc. So none of those benefit from cheaper prices.

Right now they are busy milking us using old deals and selling us stuff we need at exhorbitant prices citing emergency purchases. And in tenders they are offering their products based on prices with a large profit margin, but ensuring they stay well below the competition's pricing.

And most of our deals now are headed towards joint ventures and local production, so the benefit from low prices won't matter. With 100% of the AK-203 to be made in India or nearly 70% of the Ka-226T etc, there is not enough room to take advantage of it.

The only area where we can really benefit is if we get our hands on the Su-57Mk2 whenever it becomes ready after 2025. 2 or 3 squadrons can easily come in cheap, especially if the US offer an alternative as competition at the time, like the NGAD or F-35. Right now, the Russians are getting their Su-57Mk1s at $35M each.

One of the main agendas behind CAATSA was to remove Russia as a competitor from tenders due to their ridiculously low prices. No one can compete with them today. Even the JF-17 is now more expensive than a Mig-29. Egypt paid over $5B for 24 Rafales, but are paying only $2B for 24 Su-35s.
So Russia doesn't have anything useful worth offering to India (except Su-57) - LR subsonic cruise missile tech, or its mature SSBN/SLBM tech., or latest maneuvering Topol MIRV tech, or Kinzhal hypersonic (or whatever the name is), or any bomber-related tech., or anything at all ?
 

raghu1974

Member
Nov 19, 2020
118
91
Phoenix, AZ USA
So Russia doesn't have anything useful worth offering to India (except Su-57) - LR subsonic cruise missile tech, or its mature SSBN/SLBM tech., or latest maneuvering Topol MIRV tech, or Kinzhal hypersonic (or whatever the name is), or any bomber-related tech., or anything at all ?
I am happy to see your question. It shows 2 things depending on who you are. How much Indian Armed forces have diversified their portfolio and also The extent of our reliance on home grown solutions for many problems we have.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,775
7,403
India
So Russia doesn't have anything useful worth offering to India (except Su-57) - LR subsonic cruise missile tech, or its mature SSBN/SLBM tech., or latest maneuvering Topol MIRV tech, or Kinzhal hypersonic (or whatever the name is), or any bomber-related tech., or anything at all ?

It's not just the Russians, our market is closing in pretty much every sphere to all countries. Some have effectively closed and some are in the process of closing. Here's a recently released list of some domains and some technologies where we will not see imports.


This list will continue to grow.

As for the stuff you have mentioned, most of those are not available for sale.

Aerospace will take the longest to close.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
1,955
2,435
72
France
transition.wifeo.com

Key Role for Private Sector, No Choice for State-owned Firms: How Tejas & Rafale are Making India 'Atmanirbhar'

On January 13, 2021, PM Modi-led Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) gave the green signal for procurement of 83 Light Combat Aircraft, LCA Tejas MK IA for a deal whose cumulative value would be around Rs 48,000 crore. And though it is certainly not the first major domestic defense deal for domestic companies, given a large array of missiles are already made in India, it is certainly the biggest, wherein India’s state-owned aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would play the role of lead systems integrator and synchronize the work of around 500-odd Indian companies, along with foreign vendors, who would work simultaneously to develop different components that would eventually be integrated in HAL facilities to bring out a potent combat aircraft and would herald the first step of India towards self-sufficiency in combat craft development.

For long, India has been a paradoxical enigma to the world, for being a country with one of the most efficient, innovative and nimble footed space agencies of the world, namely ISRO, and which has to its credit the launch of hundreds of satellites, mission to moon and mars, and yet the country had for decades struggled to develop a combat craft that can match the globally competitive ones.

The deal for 83 LCA Tejas MK1A would perhaps change all of that and is a reflection of the faith that IAF now has on this platform, which originally, though was aimed at replacing the ageing fleet of IAF’s MiG-21’s, but in terms of capabilities is far more competent than the ubiquitous MiG-21, and has the capacity to emerge, through its derivatives, as a key backbone of IAF in decades to come. The signing of the deal that would most probably happen at the Aero India show next month, would also boost the developmental work for LCA Tejas MK II being undertaken by ADA, HAL and DRDO.

How Tejas MK IA fares better than Tejas MK I

Incidentally, this proposal for acquisition of 83 LCA is the third tranche of order for HAL. Previously HAL had already got orders for production of 40 LCA Tejas MK I in two tranches that it is now executing, albeit with considerable time overrun. The Tejas MK IA comes with major improvements over the baseline Tejas MK I version.


Among the key features of the 43 improvements that LCA MK IA would have, include an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar, which would substitute the manually scanned radar, and an Electronic Warfare (EW) suite, both of which has been ordered from IAI/Elta Systems of Israel. The deal for ELM-2052 fire control radars and ELL-8222WB (wide band) self-protection jamming pods, with IAI/Elta Systems were signed in 2018. This apart, the MK IA versions would come with air-refueling capabilities, ability to fire Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles and above all, a far better maintainability architecture with an improved turnaround time that was sorely lacking in the baseline MK I versions.

IAF’s Modernisation Over the Last Half a Decade


Amidst a major stand-off with China that has been going on for more than six months now, apart from Indian Army, IAF too has been playing a key role in not just providing the logistical support through massive airlifting capability of its strategic and tactical air transport planes such as C-17, IL-76, C-130 Chinooks and AN-32, but also in the realm of surveillance and air patrolling by its fighter aircrafts, it has played a stellar role in keeping Chinese ambitions at bay.

A glance at IAF’s force multiplying fleet augmentation program over the last few years would reveal that after a decade-long neglect that inflicted it with depleting squadron strengths and rising obsolescence, the turnaround for IAF started happening since around 2015 when PM Modi-led NDA government signed deals with Boeing of US for 22 Apache AH-64 combat helicopters and 15 Chinook CH-47 tactical transport helicopters for around $3 billion.


This was followed by signing of the Rs 59,000 crore deal with Dassault of France, in 2016, for delivery of 36 Dassault Rafale Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) directly from France. The Rafale platforms come with a potent package of missiles and bombs that includes air-launched cruise missiles namely Scalp with a range of more than 300 km, Meteor Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles with a range beyond 100 km and Hammer precision guided munitions.

Designed to operate even from high altitude bases because of its cold start capability, and ability to take off with more than nine tons of weapons payload, Rafales give a major booster to IAF’s combat prowess. The Rafale deal was followed by India signing the deal with Russia for five S-400 Triumf air defense systems for a whopping $5.4 billion.

To be operated by IAF, S-400 Triumf packs a punch to IAF’s air defense capabilities. Also, in 2019, Indian Government approved seven more Akash Surface to Air Missile (SAM) squadrons for IAF.

Post Balakot air strike, Government of India also ordered $700 million worth R-73 and R-77 missiles from Russia and as per reports, another deal of Rs 300 crore for 100 more Spice 2000 Bombs, with Mark 84 warheads, from Rafael of Israel. The Defence Acquisition Council has cleared proposal for six more AWACS for IAF.

By end of 2021, Russia will start delivery of S-400 units and by middle of 2022, Dassault would complete the delivery of remaining Rafales, eight of which have already arrived in India while another seven are being used in France by IAf for pilot training. The focus then would shift on India’s proposed acquisition of 114 medium combat jets for which the RFI has already been issued. The focus would also be on India’s acquisition of 21 MiG-29s from Russia and additional production of 12 Su-30MKI in India.

However, it would be interesting to see as to whether India opts for acquisition of more Rafales, once the delivery is completed of the present order. As per reports, the follow-on orders for more Rafales in same configuration would cost India much less since India has already paid for India-specific enhancements.

With French Government offering to shift at least 70% of the Rafale assembly line to India, the possibility of India opting for more Rafales to be made in India in future cannot be ruled out. That would be a major booster not just for IAF but also for the ‘Make in India’ policy.

What Next after Tejas Deal is signed?


The CCS clearance for 83 LCA Tejas MK IA is expected to be followed by another major deal clearance in the months to come. As per reports, Indian Government is also set to clear the acquisition of 56 C-295 transport aircraft for IAF. This deal has been hanging in balance for quite some time, and when cleared, 16 of the crafts would be made in Spain while the rest would be made in India by the Tatas, which would be another major boost for ‘Make in India’ program of PM Modi. However, the focus right now would be on the signing of the deal for 83 LCA Tejas MK IA. The possibility of clearance of another supplementary deal for 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) also remains high.

HAL Now Would Have to Deliver: No Ifs and Buts

The onus now therefore is on HAL to deliver. It can no longer take excuses of not having sufficient orders in its order book. It will have to deliver the Tejas MK IA, and deliver on time without the associated irritations of time overrun, cost overrun and deficiency in quality. For India, the problem has not as much been with the prototypes developed by DRDO or other agencies, but with consistency of quality when that product is put into series production by state-owned enterprises. Time and cost overrun coupled with questions on quality have been a norm than an exception. But with the private sector breathing down its neck, India’s state-owned enterprises do no longer have any choice but to deliver cutting edge products or else be left behind in the race.

Developing a Resilient Aerospace Supply Chain

A key aspect of PM Modi’s Atmanirbhar Bharat Abhiyan has been to develop a resilient supply chain within the country for both components and sub-components. The LCA program would be a huge boost for development of that supply chain in the aerospace sector. Already, for the executing offset obligations for Rafale deal, Dassault and its tier-1 vendors like Safran, Thales and MBDA have been collaborating with around 100 odd Indian companies for development of components and spare parts. Many of them may also be part of the Tejas MK IA production project.

ISRO has for long set the template and created a seamless collaborative approach with several Indian private sector companies for its space programs. Given India’s industrial proficiency, it should not have been a major problem for India to develop a vibrant domestic aerospace and defense industry. If there were policy lacunae that inhibited their progress in the past, then most of them have now been addressed.

Major Big-Ticket Programs Awaiting under 'Make in India' Policy

In the coming months and years, some more big-ticket defense deals would see the light of the day, including the deal for Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGS) in which DRDO is partnering Bharat Forge and Tata Power SED, Project 75I submarines, AK-103 rifles, Naval Utility Helicopters and armed drones.

In most of these cases, Indian private sectors would be playing a key role. With India opting for ban on import of 101 defense items, the Tejas MK IA would invariably be a test case for India’s domestic production resilience.

Politics Must Stay Away from India's Aerospace Development & Military Preparedness Program

In the run up to the general elections in 2019, a vicious campaign was started by India’s leading opposition party on India opting for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale jets from France. Rahul Gandhi had stated, “The strategy of the government is to weaken HAL, do not give it money and destroy India’s strategic capability and give a gift to Anil Ambani.”

Eventually the fake allegations on Anil Ambani getting contracts to make Rafale were nullified as India was directly buying from France and not a single one was being made here by anyone. Also, Anil Ambani-owned Reliance Defence got a mere three per cent of Rs 30,000 crore offset contracts of Rafale deal. Yet political disinformation campaigns continued but did not help Congress win 2019 elections. It got routed.

Now with HAL getting the largest aerospace contract from Government of India, what would Rahul Gandhi say? Would he retract his statement that Government of India is weakening HAL? Had for decades, successive India Governments not kept Indian private sector at bay and allowed PSUs to imbibe themselves in complacency, India would not have ended up with seventy per cent dependence on imports for defence requirements. Now PM Modi-led NDA government is changing all of that and Indian private sector must be encouraged. The Defence PSUs know that they would now have to perform, or just perish.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
2,022
2,593
United States
  • Like
Reactions: Sathya

vvabhiram

Well-Known member
Sep 18, 2019
175
320
Andhra Pradesh
Alright - 42 mil USD.... Now we are talking.

This is an awesome price, much better than what I thought the initial pricing was.
From Shukla jee's tweet, it looked like 41 mil, which makes LCA1A an extremely competitive machine. If India could get a license manufacturing deal for GE 414/404 and drive the price even lower, that would be awesome.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,394
7,107
Bangalore

The jets will be in two variants — 73 of these will be “Tejas Mk-1A” configuration, while 10 jets will be the “Tejas Mk-1” configuration used as a trainer aircraft. The project will cost Rs 45,696 crore.

At present, only 50 per cent of the jet is made in India, while the engine and the latest radar — called AESA — come from the US and Israel, respectively.

Currently, the aircraft has around 344 systems fitted in it and 210 systems are indigenous and 134 of them are imported, said a senior functionary.

By the time, the first aircraft gets produced by HAL, it is targeted that the imported systems will be reduced to approximately 80. Tejas is expected to be the backbone of the IAF fighter fleet in years to come and is slated to be produced in high numbers. The production will be done at a new state-of-the-art facility in Bengaluru.

The HAL has created the facilities to house the additional production line of LCA. Once ready, the facility would be spread across 35 acres and a built-up area of 34,893 sq m. The phase 1 of the facility is ready and is spread across 24,077 sq m.

Specialised facilities and hangars for structural assembly of aircraft are being created and simulation software packages have been added