LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

Arpit

Vox Populi
Nov 30, 2017
273
243
Delhi
The way you present the situation is bullshit. I'm not going to present an argument but the bottom line is that if the Italians attacked us in the Alps the same way the Pakistanis attacked you in the Kargil, we would do much better than you.
Oh, we are fcuked, we very well know it. But we don't live in a hunky-dory and act like we are just doing fine. Even though IAF performed this

We still know how much we are fcuked, but at least we know where we need improvements, unlike French they living in there own dreamworld, like they decimated ISIS. I don't respect leaders Forces, and nations when they abdicate their duty. While blaming the USA for all bullshit, instead of saying thank you,. you saved our asses.
 

Nilgiri

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
535
1,299
Same Manufacturer offers MKI's for 54 million USD? how do we reconcile that?

Probably the limited production run of Tejas. 83 is not a huge number, so capital costs amortised on fewer?

I agree it doesn't look great but the capability of the platform has also matured since the initial projected costings promised.

Folks here may have already answered in interim too.
 

raghu1974

Member
Nov 19, 2020
118
91
Phoenix, AZ USA
Till yesterday it was why the deal wasn't signed. Today it is why is it so expensive. I am not sure what will be the case tomorrow. Based on what we have seen so far with the Tejas program, we need to assume few things. Tejas Mk1A will see a delay of 1-2 years. Mk2 will not go into production until 2028-29. So if I were to be a betting man in Vegas, I will bet on more Tejas Mk1A orders or a Mk1b before Mk2 rolls out. We will not be able to manufacture these aircrafts cheaper than the cost for a Mig 29. Russia is in a situation where they have mothballed 10's of Mig 29 from 1980's and 1990's, wherein they can upgrade it to your spec for a cost you can afford. Even better, they might even assemble a Mig 29 from the piles of spares they may have built in the heydays of USSR for pittance. There is no and there should be never a comparison of these jets or for that matter any other jets. Tejas is unique to our country and let us pay for it. There is a saying, you get what you pay for. Rejoice the moment that 50% - 60% of this money is going back to our economy and that there are 100's of MSME companies and 1000's of Indians are being fed. For all the criticism about the quality of aircrafts we have gotten from Russia, we have created one that is high in quality which the IAF is happy about. Rome was not built in a day Ladies and Gentlemen. Let us hope for the best and be prepared for the worst. A big Toast to our own Tejas!!! Jai Hind!!!
 

Milspec

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Dec 2, 2017
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That price isn't unit price, it includes cost of upgrades, spares and ground support equipment. It's cheaper than the LCA contract.

Also you are confused about two different prices, buying from Russia to make in India and buying directly from Russia come at two different prices. You made the same mistake in the small arms thread, where you are assuming the $700 for made in Russia and $900 for made in India are the same. Their currency has tanked, nothing more.
That is utter nonsense , a Palmetto State Armory produced AK retailed before the elections for $649 and now is marked up to $849
Thats an Ak built from scratch in the US, it has nothing to do with russian currency. That price reflects US labor, material costs and overheads which for sure is higher than that of India.


They can set whatever price they want for made in Russia items because because their stuff is already cheap to produce, but can't do the same for Russian tech made in India. You should read up on the exchange rate dynamics and how it affects contracts in the pre and post ruble collapse.
the question was HAL builds MKI's for 54 - 57, you were the one claiming now a mki costs 25 mil; so if a MKI costs 25 mil why would IAF buy mothballed m29's upgraded to twice the price of what you claimed was superior MKI version? The reality is Russia will never sell IAF a MKI for 25 mil.


Since the Mig-29 upgrade and other contracts, including MRO and engine production, were signed before the ruble collapsed, we are paying the Russians based on the old rates. Which is why our MKI costs $55M while the new Russian MKI costs $25M. Since we signed this deal through a GTG, we cannot take advantage of the lower pricing, it would have worked the other way round if the ruble had strengthened instead, which meant lower profits in rubles. Contract negotiations were done using dollars at the time, so we will continue paying the same amount regardless of the ruble's price. Not to mention the Mig-29 price is from the 80s, with escalation added to it. Plus when you make in India, you are paying standard Indian costs to produce the same, you cannot take advantage of the Russian costs in any case. It's common sense, if something is made in China for $10, the same thing can't be made in the US for $10, the price is going to be much higher. So the $700 rifle that's made in Russia is likely being globally sold at perhaps a 50-60% profit margin whereas the $900 rifle made in India is likely being sold at less than 10% profit margin.

But the point really is MKI's are being produced in India for 54mil, I don't know the cost breakup of LCA, but at outset it looks like 72 mil / unit which is quite steep.


It's nothing strange that a Su-35 now costs $90M each in the global market, including spares, maintenance, training, weapons and insfrastructure. They are selling their originally $65M aircraft at less than $45M now, while their air force is buying it at $25M. The Su-57 as well was estimated at 80-90M before the ruble collapse, but now the Russians are buying it for their own use at $35M, although the international price could be much higher due to their class monopoly.

Following the announcement of a planned order by the Russian Air Force for 76 Su-57 next generation air superiority fighters, the price of the acquisition was reported by Russian media at just 170 billion - or $2.6 billion. This extremely low cost was met with much surprise by analysts - amounting to just £35 million per fighter where a price approximately three times this had been expected.

The FGFA R&D contract also fell from $5.5B to $3.7B due to the exchange rate difference.
[In December 2015] Russia tried to salvage the joint project by making India an offer to cut down its financial contribution from 6 to $ 3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and technology transfers.

So in case we buy Su-57, we should be able to get it at a much cheaper rate than the Rafales even if the Russians add a 50% profit margin over the $35-50M unit price, but, here's the clincher, as long as it's entirely made in Russia.
You are not going to get Su57 for 50 mil period. when you just paid 49mil for Mig29.
 
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Milspec

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Probably the limited production run of Tejas. 83 is not a huge number, so capital costs amortised on fewer?

I agree it doesn't look great but the capability of the platform has also matured since the initial projected costings promised.

Folks here may have already answered in interim too.
I have a feeling that the unit cost of GE404 is cause for this price. It just might be the Ghost of GTRX Kaveri biting IAF in the butt. And might I add rightly so.

Remember Honeywell was asking for 3.12 million for F125IN, roughly if GE has similar pricing then for a 90KN you are looking at close to 10Mil, but then single vendor situation so they can put us through the wringer.
 
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_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
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the question was HAL builds MKI's for 54 - 57, you were the one claiming now a mki costs 25 mil; so if a MKI costs 25 mil why would IAF buy mothballed m29's upgraded to twice the price of what you claimed was superior MKI version? The reality is Russia will never sell IAF a MKI for 25 mil.




But the point really is MKI's are being produced in India for 54mil, I don't know the cost breakup of LCA, but at outset it looks like 72 mil / unit which is quite steep.



You are not going to get Su57 for 50 mil period. when you just paid 49mil for Mig29.
I'm morbidly curious as to where are those figures of 27 million USD for the MKI & 50 million USD for the Su-57 coming from?Are these figures from 5-6 yrs ago extrapolated to include devaluation of the rouble plus some inflation,which I think it is?

To think , not many people here know most of these 3 pages since day before were filled in coz - A lot of people aren't aware how forward looking......


Another useless bit of infructous debate much like the info on a man in a Tweed suit taking 5.5 sec to fall from the top of Big Ben to the ground. In the event, that analogy wasn't wrong at all.
 
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Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
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I'm morbidly curious as to where are those figures of 27 million USD for the MKI & 50 million USD for the Su-57 coming from?Are these figures from 5-6 yrs ago extrapolated to include devaluation of the rouble plus some inflation,which I think it is?

To think , not many people here know most of these 3 pages since day before were filled in coz - A lot of people aren't aware how forward looking......


Another useless bit of infructous debate much like the info on a man in a Tweed suit taking 5.5 sec to fall from the top of Big Ben to the ground. In the event, that analogy wasn't wrong at all.
Well, I too am guilty of those 1.5 pages for unnecessary rabble-rousing. :)
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
13,563
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Mumbai
Well, I too am guilty of those 1.5 pages for unnecessary rabble-rousing. :)
I mean what's the point. He's not going to change. All his technical brilliance & insight gets sullied by useless speculation at times always passed off as facts & not opinions or guesstimates & when called out all sorts of reasoned debates ensues with sundry facts getting thrown in & when that fails goalposts get shifted to the extent that at times own goals are scored. It's actually hilarious in a tragic way.

I thought I was guilty of trolling Paddy till I realized everyone's doing it in their way.

And you're just replacing Sancho.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
9,787
7,414
India
That is utter nonsense , a Palmetto State Armory produced AK retailed before the elections for $649 and now is marked up to $849
Thats an Ak built from scratch in the US, it has nothing to do with russian currency. That price reflects US labor, material costs and overheads which for sure is higher than that of India.

I don't know enough about guns to know if you are referring to the AK-203 or the AK-47 and if there is a significant difference between the two or if there's a contract between them and Russia to make Russian AKs.

AFAIK, only India is getting the license to produce AK-203s as of now.

the question was HAL builds MKI's for 54 - 57, you were the one claiming now a mki costs 25 mil; so if a MKI costs 25 mil why would IAF buy mothballed m29's upgraded to twice the price of what you claimed was superior MKI version? The reality is Russia will never sell IAF a MKI for 25 mil.

I don't know if you have clearly read my post, but yes, Russia won't sell an MKI for $25M to India, because our GTG agreement won't allow us to buy it at that rate. It's too late for us to take advantage of it because we signed a fixed price contract with Russia back in 2000. So we negotiated for about $22M pet jet back then, and escalation has taken it to above $50M over 20 years, so that's the rate we will be paying for the MKI now.

Similarly, we negotiated for a certain price for the Mig-29S back in the early 80s and we now add an escalation on the price over a nearly 40-year period for the 21 Mig-29S.

The only way to escape that is to buy a whole new version in a whole new process, like Su-30SM2 or Mig-29M etc.

Other countries negotiating new contracts under the new exchange rate are doing it already.
Egyptian Air Force has signed a military agreement to buy 50 MiG-35 warplanes from Russia the US' National Interest reported on Saturday.

The $2 billion deal, the largest in the post-Soviet era, was signed between Cairo and Moscow in April 2015, under which Egypt will receive the warplanes by 2020.


That's $40M per jet. This cost includes all other associated costs. So the unit price is most likely about $25M or lesser, with the remaining $15M covering all the extras needed to operate the jet.

But the point really is MKI's are being produced in India for 54mil, I don't know the cost breakup of LCA, but at outset it looks like 72 mil / unit which is quite steep.

LCA's unit cost is less than $45M, estimated to be Rs 310 Cr. As already mentioned before, the full cost is program cost, not unit cost.

The program cost of Rafale is roughly $250M per jet for India, whereas the unit cost is $105M (€3.42B), based on the rates prevalent in 2016. The remaining costs were for ISE (€1.7B), PBL (€353M), infrastructure (€1.8B) and weapons (€710M), which all came up to roughly about $150M per jet.

You are not going to get Su57 for 50 mil period. when you just paid 49mil for Mig29.

Again, the 49M is not unit cost, it's program cost. Whereas the Su-57's 35M is unit cost.

New Delhi and Moscow signed a $888 million deal to upgrade the jets between 2005-06.

$888M for 63 jets is about $14M. So $49M includes the $14M upgrade package + escalation. And the contract also includes a package to upgrade the remaining 59 jets with some new tech, so it's a comprehensive package and not just a basic purchase contract.

I've noticed that you haven't complained about the 12 MKIs costing us $120M each.
While the MiG 29 procurement and upgradation from Russia is estimated to cost Rs 7418 cr, the Su-30 MKI will be procured from HAL at an estimated cost of Rs 10,730 cr.

Perhaps you can try explaining that.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
@Picdelamirand-oil

To a query on whether the Tejas would be able to carry out Balakot-type airstrikes, the Air Chief said: "In terms of strike capability, it will have the capability of a standoff weapon which will be even beyond the capability we used that time."

The same weapons deployed on the MKI, so his statement extends to the MKI as well.
 

Tatvamasi

Well-Known member
Jan 5, 2018
475
390
India
The way you present the situation is bullshit. I'm not going to present an argument but the bottom line is that if the Italians attacked us in the Alps the same way the Pakistanis attacked you in the Kargil, we would do much better than you.
Yeah right. When a french see a 90-degree steep climb on a hill 8,800 feet above sea-level his natural instincts kick in and 'surrender'!

Dropping bombs above some African countries with no resources and calling it a victory with no shame.
 

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,330
627
Mumbai
Yeah right. When a french see a 90-degree steep climb on a hill 8,800 feet above sea-level his natural instincts kick in and 'surrender'!

Dropping bombs above some African countries with no resources and calling it a victory with no shame.
He is referring to declare a full scale war on enemy and completely destroying the enemy. In kargil we won the battle, by throwing away enemy from our own land. French or any other major power will not limit the action in a small are in such scenario.
 
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Ashwin

Agent_47
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Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
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LCA Program : Vendor Landscape
 
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Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,123
1,162
India
We are not geeting Russian weapons cheap..
Not possible in future too..
Heck even Ak203 is costlier..
All this cheap Ruble is not for our country I guess. So no need to even discuss about that price. We ll stick to the price we get.

BTW have we signed the deal for Mig 29 & Su 30 ? I don't think we did.

We ll delay this stop gap measure for few years and when such a decision loses it's impact, we ll buy at a price that's not going to be cheap.

--------

Kuntal biswas made a art with Pylon based IRST for Mk1A.. Is it happening?
 

SrNair

Member
Mar 12, 2018
72
74
Kerala
That is utter nonsense , a Palmetto State Armory produced AK retailed before the elections for $649 and now is marked up to $849
Thats an Ak built from scratch in the US, it has nothing to do with russian currency. That price reflects US labor, material costs and overheads which for sure is higher than that of India.



the question was HAL builds MKI's for 54 - 57, you were the one claiming now a mki costs 25 mil; so if a MKI costs 25 mil why would IAF buy mothballed m29's upgraded to twice the price of what you claimed was superior MKI version? The reality is Russia will never sell IAF a MKI for 25 mil.




But the point really is MKI's are being produced in India for 54mil, I don't know the cost breakup of LCA, but at outset it looks like 72 mil / unit which is quite steep.



You are not going to get Su57 for 50 mil period. when you just paid 49mil for Mig29.

I think it would be better to compare the Tejas with Gripen or other same class western fighters.
Russians deal is very different.
They had actually surplus weapon production capacity with a messed up economy and like Chinese they can churned out weapons.
Another thing for a newly designed jet 83 is not a big order .If they manage to exports in else where it will again come down and HAL also squeeze for investment in infrastructure .
Once everything stabilised a newly efficient Mk2 might be cheaper than this .