Kashmir : An Illusive Solution

[bonobashi]

And what is the punishment for the turks, mughals? Who will punish them? What is the date by which they will be punished and all the wrong deeds undone?

Dear Sir, Please file an FIR in the place of occurrence, and go ahead with seeking restitution.

Your insisting of - punishing those who break your made up laws shows your arrogance. Why do you think your law makers have powers of superman? Making a law which doesn't have popular support itself is a major crime. Law is what people support. If people support slaughter, then that is the law

How, dear Sir, can a law be made without popular support? And how can people support slaughter when the law, passed by the people or their representatives, bans it?

 

[bonobashi]

Pls stick to topic in hand

MAD situation can be discussed here
Nuclear MAD Scenario and possible effects in Indo Pak China context

Dear Administrator,

Might one say, with tongue slightly in cheek, that we find ourselves effectively 'parikramit'?

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

So far, then, dear Sir, we are saying the same thing.



Dear Sir, You should have got the point by now. If we live under a constitution, either you obey it or you don't. Who is imposing their rules on others by force of numbers, and where? Where is the war? What overthrow are you speaking of?

No but by the people and once made it is flexible enough to rechange in itself... but throwing it out means inviting anarchy in.

killing something is easy solution and create a precedence for someone else to kill again and what if his reason to kill is not as noble? finding a solution in workable boundaries and constitution allows matter to be settled rather then emerge like hydra heads.


there are people who will even question the authority of god on law... so you can analyze that nothing is holy and scared once we start destruction and where it will put us all at end?

We will live only under the rule of reason, not constitution. Constitution is another Quran. Why should I follow something that was arbitrarily made without a referendum, or by people who were true leaders? India didn't fight for independence properly but was gifted. Hence Mountbatten stayed back to ensure constitution is written according to British will. It was a form of neo colonialism. They were taking advantage of primitive and indifferent people in India to impose their own will by lying and deceit.

Anarchy is better than evil rule. If Anarchy is needed to eliminate evil, so be it. I would, however call it as freedom struggle to establish true India. Unfortunately, the people who lived in 1940s were disgusting, unreasonable and stupid. Because of their blunder, today has become a difficult life. But, that doesn't mean their mistakes must be continued upon. Mistakes must be rectified and not perpetuated in the name of peace. There can be no peace until everything is reasonable and questions can be properly answered

 

[Himanshu Pandey]

What is human right? You people created arbitrary things without any basis and then declare it as universal? Can you tell me who gave you any rights?

Autocratic or dictatorship simply is an excuse. What is needed is right or wrong. Opinions can be kept aside. If you are unreasonable, you are evil and hence better dead than alive.

The world doesn't work according to your whims and fancies. Gravity doesn't exist because you wanted it to. Kashmir, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran etc didn't become like this naturally. One can't just ignore history and act as if World has started from scratch with all the new rights and democracy.

As I said, world doesn't work in a way you want it to. Either accept the laws of nature or commit suicide. Don't lecture your made up. Laws to others

and who's defination we are going to take about right and wrong, reasoable and unreasonable?

because last I checked there are not set and what is wrong for you can be right for someone else.

what I always found ironic is there are only open defenders of autocracy or calling it as an excuse only in democracy... never found open opposers of it in autocracy.. is it due to the opinions changed in front of barrels of guns?

kashmir can be solved by maybe a million ways but anyway which endanger the democracy is the wrong way.

 

[bonobashi]

there are only 1 Muslim dominant state and 1 Muslim dominant CRS.. but the trend is that everyplace where they are reaching 18 % they are going against popular will and customs of India.

I suggest demographic change in kashmir because they are using these muslim dominant card to get separated from India... once they become minority and Jammu and Ladhakh get better representation in assembly.. almost all those unsolvable issue will be solved.


the education is quite different from literacy and I always support better educated man over better literate man but then the common sense and patriotism should be part of this education.

the reason we are not evolving as a society is much more because a lot of people are vasting their time in social studies and philosphy rather then science.

I don't say that philoshpy are not required but the discussion on philoshpy and ideology is for the hunger of a filled stomoch not for people who are still struggling to come out of miseary in which they had been thrown by all privios rulers.

educate people on science, patriotism and human values of honor, honest and hard work and let's leave the philosophical stuff of nation and human nature for future generation with secure future and filled bellies.

Dear Sir,

I can see that you are a formidable opponent. If you were to contrive to carry this discussion into a different thread, we could argue this out without offending flat-earthers, those who agree with Hobbes about the nature of human life in the wild, and other assorted zoological events in situ.

Science, you might have noticed, does not tell us how to resolve an argument over ownership rights on a plot of land. On this forum, we have encountered the muscle-bound school, who wish to hold the details of everyone in their vast databases, and resolve all conflict by reference to this database (for instance, "You have worn a red wind-cheater, and therefore I have decided to kill you since you haven't worn a red wind-cheater before"); others represent the trishul up the vagina school, that are of the opinion that might is right, and the only law that applies is the law that the largest immediately present majority acknowledges.

The financial benefits of the latter course are manifest. No police, no courts, no lawyers, no prisons; a few million can be saved every year, and many more religious structures can be built, the nature of the structure being determined by the number in favour of one or the other.

 

[Manmohan_MMY]

All things aside unless we can stop the flow of foreign money in Kashmir area and at the same time stop allowing the separatists and stop entertaining their arguments, we will start getting somewhere

 

[Manmohan_MMY]

All the rebellious activities and the protests which are done in the Kashmir area are all sponsored by foreign money flowing through Emirates and Dubai, it shows in the hands of the protestors via the separatists

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Dear Sir, Please file an FIR in the place of occurrence, and go ahead with seeking restitution.



How, dear Sir, can a law be made without popular support? And how can people support slaughter when the law, passed by the people or their representatives, bans it?

Hahaha, FIRs have been filed. The problem here is that world is one unit. The jurisdiction of Indian laws only apply to within Indian region. The only way to obtain justice on outsiders is to declare war on the other country itself. Also, due to uneven distribution of natural resources, water and food and a sudden technology revolution, some people are in possession of undue advantage and power. This is also not controllable by Man.

By changing the made up laws, anything can be legalised. But, as I said, some people have undue advantage over others due to natural resource distribution, intelligent ancestors and God's hand (luck). These things, however are not in the hands of man.

That is why I emphasize on Natural laws.

 

[bonobashi]

We will live only under the rule of reason, not constitution. Constitution is another Quran. Why should I follow something that was arbitrarily made without a referendum, or by people who were true leaders?

Dear Sir, the Indian Constitution was made not arbitrarily but by a representative body, that resembles the same representative body that makes laws today. Further, it consists of 395 articles in the original, to which 53 have been added in 70 years.

Is it your point that each should have been carried by referendum?

India didn't fight for independence properly but was gifted. Hence Mountbatten stayed back to ensure constitution is written according to British will.

Dear Sir, Mountbatten left in 1950, and the Constitution had nothing to do with him. It was largely the work of Ambedkar, but helped along by a set of visionary statesmen. If you know so much about political and constitutional history, you will also know that Mountbatten was not particularly intellectual and could not have contributed much.

As far as is known, no colonialist was involved in making the constitution.

It was a form of neo colonialism. They were taking advantage of primitive and indifferent people in India to impose their own will by lying and deceit.

Those are more or less the same people today, Sir, except that the constituent assembly was composed of far better educated people than exist in the legislature today.

And what stops the people from reframing the constitution according to their wishes today?

Anarchy is better than evil rule. If Anarchy is needed to eliminate evil, so be it. I would, however call it as freedom struggle to establish true India. Unfortunately, the people who lived in 1940s were disgusting, unreasonable and stupid. Because of their blunder, today has become a difficult life. But, that doesn't mean their mistakes must be continued upon. Mistakes must be rectified and not perpetuated in the name of peace. There can be no peace until everything is reasonable and questions can be properly answered

When did the change to reasonable and intelligent people take place?1950? 1960? 1970? 1980? 1990? 2000? 2010? Some time in the future? How can we find out if they are reasonable and intelligent? How do you propose to correct, to rectify their mistakes?

Above all, which questions are you unable to find answers to? The punishment of the Turks from the 12th century?

 

[Himanshu Pandey]

We will live only under the rule of reason, not constitution. Constitution is another Quran. Why should I follow something that was arbitrarily made without a referendum, or by people who were true leaders? India didn't fight for independence properly but was gifted. Hence Mountbatten stayed back to ensure constitution is written according to British will. It was a form of neo colonialism. They were taking advantage of primitive and indifferent people in India to impose their own will by lying and deceit.

Anarchy is better than evil rule. If Anarchy is needed to eliminate evil, so be it. I would, however call it as freedom struggle to establish true India. Unfortunately, the people who lived in 1940s were disgusting, unreasonable and stupid. Because of their blunder, today has become a difficult life. But, that doesn't mean their mistakes must be continued upon. Mistakes must be rectified and not perpetuated in the name of peace. There can be no peace until everything is reasonable and questions can be properly answered

Ah a wanna be rebel...

constitution made without referendum? do you my dear even know how this is done and how this whole exercise happen?

and who were true leaders or should I ask who is a true leader... how you find or identify him?

Shouldn't you go to syria and study anarchy first hand and then lecturing over it.

A freedom struggle to establish true India... Indeed a noble idea... just one question... who will decide how this true India looks like.. because if it me... all those I gained knowledge by youtube and blogs and have a full belly and an stupid opinion without even knowing what it means will be shot... don't you agree.. they are a pain in donkey.


I hope my dear martian that you landed after 1950... as it would be called bad manners to call your forefathers with such hard words.

if you can just give me an definition of reason which is true and just I will be grateful.

 

[Himanshu Pandey]

Dear Sir,

I can see that you are a formidable opponent. If you were to contrive to carry this discussion into a different thread, we could argue this out without offending flat-earthers, those who agree with Hobbes about the nature of human life in the wild, and other assorted zoological events in situ.

Science, you might have noticed, does not tell us how to resolve an argument over ownership rights on a plot of land. On this forum, we have encountered the muscle-bound school, who wish to hold the details of everyone in their vast databases, and resolve all conflict by reference to this database (for instance, "You have worn a red wind-cheater, and therefore I have decided to kill you since you haven't worn a red wind-cheater before"); others represent the trishul up the vagina school, that are of the opinion that might is right, and the only law that applies is the law that the largest immediately present majority acknowledges.

The financial benefits of the latter course are manifest. No police, no courts, no lawyers, no prisons; a few million can be saved every year, and many more religious structures can be built, the nature of the structure being determined by the number in favour of one or the other.

If it is not your sarcasm I am honored and sure open a thread where we can discuss.

 

[bonobashi]

Hahaha, FIRs have been filed. The problem here is that world is one unit. The jurisdiction of Indian laws only apply to within Indian region. The only way to obtain justice on outsiders is to declare war on the other country itself. Also, due to uneven distribution of natural resources, water and food and a sudden technology revolution, some people are in possession of undue advantage and power. This is also not controllable by Man.

By changing the made up laws, anything can be legalised. But, as I said, some people have undue advantage over others due to natural resource distribution, intelligent ancestors and God's hand (luck). These things, however are not in the hands of man.

That is why I emphasize on Natural laws.

Dear Sir, The world is not one unit. Different sets of misfits have disfigures the natural state of affairs, and restrained people from freely killing all whom they oppose. Terrible thing to do.

From your words, you are seeking justice on outsiders, and wish to declare war on somebody or the other. Are you sure that you will prevail in this war (only you, because nobody else may support you)?

However, I am badly equipped to understand your logic. On the one hand, you do not wish to go by man-made laws. On the other hand, you are annoyed at the unnatural advantages given by nature (natural resources, heredity and chance). Please make it clear: which are you backing, man's laws or the laws of nature?

An enquiring public seeks to know.

@Himanshu Pandey

Rara avis, sui generis. He should be preserved in formaldehyde, in a natural way.

 

[bonobashi]

If it is not your sarcasm I am honored and sure open a thread where we can discuss.

Dear Sir, Not sarcasm, not at all. If you wish me to provide sureties, I can.

But be warned; I give no quarter, and take no quarter. Not unless we are meeting in meat-space.

 

[Himanshu Pandey]

@Himanshu Pandey

Rara avis, sui generis. He should be preserved in formaldehyde, in a natural way.

you my dear is just too good.

 

[bonobashi]

Sir,

The situation is indeed underhanded. The dispensation given to the Centre, under the Constitution, for incorporation of subjects to be implemented by Ordinance in J&K was a one-time dispensation, for a single use only, that has been misused by successive Governments at the Centre over nearly sixty years, the first time, in the full realisation by the ministers and bureaucrats at Delhi that they were collusive in a breach of the Constitution. The legal parameters that you refer to have been specifically and egregiously violated. You might find Dr. Rajendra Prasad's views on the matter of interest.

And as for the comparison with the Catalans and the Kurds, neither of them had the constitutional sanction that the Kashmiris do. Article 370 is hard-wired into the Constitution of India.

Lastly, I sympathise with the frequent attempts of opponents of the status quo to do away with Article 370. Please look at the legal situation once again. It is not a question of the Indian Parliament passing a law with a simply majority; it is not even a question of the Indian Parliament passing a law with a two-thirds majority sufficient for a constitutional amendment either.

Only the state Constituent Assembly was empowered to inform the Indian Parliament that Article 370 is no longer needed, and may be abrogated. The state Constituent Assembly dissolved itself without so informing the Indian Parliament. This Constituent Assembly cannot be reformed, and is forever extinct. Therefore, a possibility of informing the Indian Parliament that Article 370 is no longer needed does not exist, and can never exist, not if we want to retain any legal link to the Valley or to Ladakh or to Jammu.

Please do bear in mind, Sir, that this is not my personal opinion, but the irrefutable legal position, that has been examined gingerly by far greater constitutional authorities than I, and from which position those experts have found it best to retire, creeping away furtively to avoid attracting attention.

@Hellfire

Deja vu. But do you see how polite and deferential I am? There is a healthy set of good minds, and I am feeling quite encouraged. Most obliged, dear Sir.

 

[Himanshu Pandey]

Dear Sir, Not sarcasm, not at all. If you wish me to provide sureties, I can.

But be warned; I give no quarter, and take no quarter. Not unless we are meeting in meat-space.

I fallow the law only.

 

[bonobashi]

you my dear is just too good.

I is, Sir, I is.

I warned you, I give no quarter

Can you get @Falcon into that thread? I think, Sir, we can have an interesting discussion. And @VCheng; he cuts to the bone.

 

[bonobashi]

Ah a wanna be rebel...

constitution made without referendum? do you my dear even know how this is done and how this whole exercise happen?

and who were true leaders or should I ask who is a true leader... how you find or identify him?

Shouldn't you go to syria and study anarchy first hand and then lecturing over it.

A freedom struggle to establish true India... Indeed a noble idea... just one question... who will decide how this true India looks like.. because if it me... all those I gained knowledge by youtube and blogs and have a full belly and an stupid opinion without even knowing what it means will be shot... don't you agree.. they are a pain in donkey.


I hope my dear martian that you landed after 1950... as it would be called bad manners to call your forefathers with such hard words.

if you can just give me an definition of reason which is true and just I will be grateful.

Chabuk, guru, chabuk!

 

[bonobashi]

All things aside unless we can stop the flow of foreign money in Kashmir area and at the same time stop allowing the separatists and stop entertaining their arguments, we will start getting somewhere

Good point, Sir. We have abolished Rs. 1,000 notes; we have abolished cash payments, and my vegetable seller is contemplating taking money through PayTM; the time has come for the Great Leap Forward.

Let us abolish money.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

and who's defination we are going to take about right and wrong, reasoable and unreasonable?

because last I checked there are not set and what is wrong for you can be right for someone else.

what I always found ironic is there are only open defenders of autocracy or calling it as an excuse only in democracy... never found open opposers of it in autocracy.. is it due to the opinions changed in front of barrels of guns?

kashmir can be solved by maybe a million ways but anyway which endanger the democracy is the wrong way.

Mod Edit : Religious part has been removed

All things aside unless we can stop the flow of foreign money in Kashmir area and at the same time stop allowing the separatists and stop entertaining their arguments, we will start getting somewhere

We are dependent on oil. For that we have to export services in the form of workers to arabs. Arabs can choose people of their will and pay the salary of their choice. So, they are choosing their agents and giving high salary for funding jihad.

Since India is deficient on natural resources, it can't be a manufacturing hub like china and has to export services. Also, in addition to remittance, India also needs investments and foreign sales. Gulf countries fund movie producers and directors in India by overbooking the cinema halls for months along in overseas theatre release and hence pay billions of dollars in the form of ticket sales. There are many problems associated with foreign trade and globalisation - countries with large amount of resources can misuse their superior position by uaing the resources to fund trojan horses