Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

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In a major indigenisation step towards integrating the niche air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, the plans are to equip the second submarine of the INS Kalvari-class by the middle of the next year. Sources in the defence and establishment said AIP is likely to be fitted on INS Khanderi in July 2026.

INS Khanderi is scheduled to go for refitting in mid-2026. The work on AIP is being carried out by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) which "The prototype of the AIP system will be ready by December this year."

The plan, sources said, is to equip all new submarines with the indigenous AIP system. L&T is the recipient of the Transfer of Technology (ToT) for this DRDO developed AIP System. The Transfer of Technology documents for the same were handed over during Aero India 2021 in Bangalore.
 

India going for German-origin submarines, may scrap project for more French ones


NEW DELHI: India may scrap the proposed project to build another three French-origin Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks (MDL), while it goes full steam ahead with the plan to construct six new German-origin diesel-electric stealth submarines at the same facility for over Rs 70,000 crore.
The plan for the three additional Scorpene submarines, which would have cost around Rs 36,000 crore, “is not being pursued now”, though the “final decision to scrap it has not yet been taken in black and white”, top govt sources have told TOI.

While cost negotiations for the three more Scorpenes concluded in the last fiscal itself, the final nod from the PM-led cabinet committee on security (CCS) is “on hold” because the German submarines are considered “a generation ahead” of them, the sources added.
“Moreover, it would be difficult for MDL to handle two different complex submarine-building projects simultaneously,” a source said. The three new Scorpenes were to add to the six such submarines already built at MDL under the over Rs 23,000 crore `Project-75’, which was inked way back in Oct 2005.

The first, INS Kalvari, was commissioned in Dec 2017 after much delay and the sixth, INS Vagsheer, in Jan this year. All the six Kalvari-class submarines will, however, be retrofitted with the air-independent propulsion (AIP) system being developed by DRDO for greater underwater endurance.
AIP gives a diesel-electric submarine the stealth capability to remain underwater for around two weeks, while a boat without it must surface or `snorkel’ every couple of days to get oxygen to recharge its batteries.
The German submarines to be constructed at MDL under `Project-75India (P-75I), in partnership with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), will have AIP, land-attack cruise missiles and other new-generation technologies.

The decision to take forward the final techno-commercial negotiations for the six German submarines -- with the option for another three of them at a later stage -- was taken after extensive deliberations among the defence ministry, Navy, the National Security Council Secretariat and others, the sources said.

Consequently, the official contract talks for MDL to build the six German submarines began last month. “These new-generation boats under P-75I will come with design ToT (transfer of technology) and a greater indigenisation level of around 60%. The project will serve as a bridge to the future P-76, under which conventional submarines will be constructed based on totally indigenous design,” another source said.

Considering France’s expansive strategic partnership with India, there is however still the possibility that the case for three more Scorpenes could be revived if there is top-level intervention.

Sources, on their part, say France should be pleased that it is on course to bag several other major projects. For one, the govt-to-govt deal for additional Rafales under the IAF’s around Rs 2 lakh crore project for 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (MRFA), in which the bulk of the jets will be manufactured in India, is now in the works, as was reported by TOI.

For another, the collaboration to co-develop a new powerful jet engine with French major Saran – at a cost of Rs 61,000 crore -- for India’s fifth-generation stealth fighter called AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft) has also been virtually finalized.

Amid all this, the Navy is keeping its fingers crossed. Apart from the six Scorpenes, the Navy is left with just six old Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines in its conventional underwater fleet. It also has two nuclear-powered submarines armed with ballistic missiles.

China, incidentally, has over 50 diesel-electric and 10 nuclear submarines. It is also supplying eight new Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines with AIP to Pakistan in what will be a major capability jump for the latter.
 

India going for German-origin submarines, may scrap project for more French ones


NEW DELHI: India may scrap the proposed project to build another three French-origin Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks (MDL), while it goes full steam ahead with the plan to construct six new German-origin diesel-electric stealth submarines at the same facility for over Rs 70,000 crore.
The plan for the three additional Scorpene submarines, which would have cost around Rs 36,000 crore, “is not being pursued now”, though the “final decision to scrap it has not yet been taken in black and white”, top govt sources have told TOI.

While cost negotiations for the three more Scorpenes concluded in the last fiscal itself, the final nod from the PM-led cabinet committee on security (CCS) is “on hold” because the German submarines are considered “a generation ahead” of them, the sources added.
“Moreover, it would be difficult for MDL to handle two different complex submarine-building projects simultaneously,” a source said. The three new Scorpenes were to add to the six such submarines already built at MDL under the over Rs 23,000 crore `Project-75’, which was inked way back in Oct 2005.

The first, INS Kalvari, was commissioned in Dec 2017 after much delay and the sixth, INS Vagsheer, in Jan this year. All the six Kalvari-class submarines will, however, be retrofitted with the air-independent propulsion (AIP) system being developed by DRDO for greater underwater endurance.
AIP gives a diesel-electric submarine the stealth capability to remain underwater for around two weeks, while a boat without it must surface or `snorkel’ every couple of days to get oxygen to recharge its batteries.
The German submarines to be constructed at MDL under `Project-75India (P-75I), in partnership with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), will have AIP, land-attack cruise missiles and other new-generation technologies.

The decision to take forward the final techno-commercial negotiations for the six German submarines -- with the option for another three of them at a later stage -- was taken after extensive deliberations among the defence ministry, Navy, the National Security Council Secretariat and others, the sources said.

Consequently, the official contract talks for MDL to build the six German submarines began last month. “These new-generation boats under P-75I will come with design ToT (transfer of technology) and a greater indigenisation level of around 60%. The project will serve as a bridge to the future P-76, under which conventional submarines will be constructed based on totally indigenous design,” another source said.

Considering France’s expansive strategic partnership with India, there is however still the possibility that the case for three more Scorpenes could be revived if there is top-level intervention.

Sources, on their part, say France should be pleased that it is on course to bag several other major projects. For one, the govt-to-govt deal for additional Rafales under the IAF’s around Rs 2 lakh crore project for 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (MRFA), in which the bulk of the jets will be manufactured in India, is now in the works, as was reported by TOI.

For another, the collaboration to co-develop a new powerful jet engine with French major Saran – at a cost of Rs 61,000 crore -- for India’s fifth-generation stealth fighter called AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft) has also been virtually finalized.

Amid all this, the Navy is keeping its fingers crossed. Apart from the six Scorpenes, the Navy is left with just six old Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines in its conventional underwater fleet. It also has two nuclear-powered submarines armed with ballistic missiles.

China, incidentally, has over 50 diesel-electric and 10 nuclear submarines. It is also supplying eight new Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines with AIP to Pakistan in what will be a major capability jump for the latter.
Wrong move IMO.
The Kalvari class is a tried and tested design while the German offering is effectively a concept at the moment, if there are issues during the construction phase then that would set back the Navy's undersea fleet by years if not decades.
 
This is kinda odd given files that go upto CCS stage for final clearance are usually granted. Other than cost negotiation process started on P-75(I) which mean one project is ahead of the other one, progress wise, there is not much else available. The extra subs with the AIP module will cost more but can be a more viable solution for the aip plug wise. Lets see.

Also who even link other possible projects with France as counterweight to completely other service generated business? What has IAF business to do with navy's? Why would Naval group be happy that Safran is getting business while they are to lose theirs?
 
This is kinda odd given files that go upto CCS stage for final clearance are usually granted. Other than cost negotiation process started on P-75(I) which mean one project is ahead of the other one, progress wise, there is not much else available. The extra subs with the AIP module will cost more but can be a more viable solution for the aip plug wise. Lets see.

Also who even link other possible projects with France as counterweight to completely other service generated business? What has IAF business to do with navy's? Why would Naval group be happy that Safran is getting business while they are to lose theirs?
Exactly, this seems like a made-up article.
 
As per the last call, MDL indicated while the orders are delayed a bit, both were still expected. With this the planned capex indicate major expansion 2 times which makes little sense without significant order visibility in the horizon. Now of course everything is still decided by the govt side so never say never. We wait and see. Perhaps MDL may issue some clarification. So far everything was based on both contracts being considered.

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This is kinda odd given files that go upto CCS stage for final clearance are usually granted. Other than cost negotiation process started on P-75(I) which mean one project is ahead of the other one, progress wise, there is not much else available. The extra subs with the AIP module will cost more but can be a more viable solution for the aip plug wise. Lets see.

Also who even link other possible projects with France as counterweight to completely other service generated business? What has IAF business to do with navy's? Why would Naval group be happy that Safran is getting business while they are to lose theirs?
It didn't cross CCS because babus flagged its high cost. They are asking $4.1 Billion for 3 submarine. While Germans are projecting $8-9 billion for 6 newer design submarine. Indonesia paid $2.1 for 2 similar Scorpene Evolved design including ToT.

The French overplayed their hand, so now they will be losing the deal. They knew this is the fastest way for India to acquire modern submarines, as P75I will have a lot of lead time. But, they forget that indian babudom dont work based on logic. You can't squeeze $1 billion out of our desperation. Don't you dare underestimate our thriftiness.

Look Whos Talking Now Omg GIF
 
I suppose Indonesia is not seeking to integrate DRDO's AIP into their submarine...
We have already paid for AIP and heavyweight torpedo integration.


 
I suppose Indonesia is not seeking to integrate DRDO's AIP into their submarine...




Indonesia is not waiting to get the subs in about a decade of lead time, i.e. a decade+ of inflation.
That 8-9 billion quoted figure in german offer almost certainly takes into account expected inflation and its effect ( though some price escalation clauses with caps may exist)
Compared to additional 3 scorpene whose contract takes into account about half a decade+ of inflation.


Also the most infra and expertise already exist for scorpene given 6 are already built.
( something indonesia doesn't have)

And no. Of additional scorpene is 3, ~33% bigger order than Indonesian order of 2.

So even with drdo AIP, per unit cost should not exceed Indonesian deal.



and even with drdo AIP fitting, slight increase in length and assumed more modern subsystems Compared of original 6 scorpene deal.
I still don't see three additional scorpene with drdo AIP(whose expected deliveries are from ~2030) deal costing almost same per unit as (more advance, more larger, more stealthier, also equipped with AIP and also VLS)German offer whose delivery will start from ~2035.
 
We have already paid for AIP and heavyweight torpedo integration.


This is integration on older submarines, but I imagine integration on newer submarines is more demanding. We are starting to get to know the Indians, who always want more. We agree, but we charge for it. The others say no, it's up to you to choose, but we won't change.
 
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This is integration on older submarines, but I imagine integration on newer submarines is more demanding. We are starting to get to know the Indians, who always want more. We agree, but we charge for it. The others say no, it's up to you to choose, but we won't change.
Yeah, you underestimated the P75I program and lost it to the Germans. Now, you tried to milk from this deal and are losing it again. You can change but be reasonable. This was the last chance to partner as our own design under L&T is maturing fast. Naval group could have worked with MDL to made it a base to exports submarine. We have the scale, resources and cost effective. French navy dont operate SSKs anyway.

We want the best equipment because we have capable adversaries, unlike you or your other customers. Your doctrine thought 80KM MICA is fine, ARM is unnecessary and Spectra was enough, but here we are.
 
Indonesia is not waiting to get the subs in about a decade of lead time, i.e. a decade+ of inflation.
That 8-9 billion quoted figure in german offer almost certainly takes into account expected inflation and its effect ( though some price escalation clauses with caps may exist)
Compared to additional 3 scorpene whose contract takes into account about half a decade+ of inflation.


Also the most infra and expertise already exist for scorpene given 6 are already built.
( something indonesia doesn't have)

And no. Of additional scorpene is 3, ~33% bigger order than Indonesian order of 2.

So even with drdo AIP, per unit cost should not exceed Indonesian deal.



and even with drdo AIP fitting, slight increase in length and assumed more modern subsystems Compared of original 6 scorpene deal.
I still don't see three additional scorpene with drdo AIP(whose expected deliveries are from ~2030) deal costing almost same per unit as (more advance, more larger, more stealthier, also equipped with AIP and also VLS)German offer whose delivery will start from ~2035.

We geting our own AIP + CMS combat management system.. probably charges for that sort of like price for autonomy
 
We geting our own AIP + CMS combat management system.. probably charges for that sort of like price for autonomy
The german deal includes those too.
Into much farther future and for larger, stealthier and more capable subs.

For increaased indigenous content + Drdo AIP+CMS.
The per unit cost still should not be more than Indonesian deal.
Given we are ordering 3 additional subs, while Indonesia getting 2, and we already have infra, expertise and experience of building previous 6 scorpene subs which Indonesia doesn't.
 
I suppose Indonesia is not seeking to integrate DRDO's AIP into their submarine...

It may be that the French subs are like their aircraft? Overpriced and underperforming

"Even though the cost negotiations for the French Scorpenes had been wrapped up in the last fiscal, the PM led Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has put their final clearance ‘on hold’ as the German submarines are considered to be a generation ahead of the French"

 
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Yeah, you underestimated the P75I program and lost it to the Germans. Now, you tried to milk from this deal and are losing it again. You can change but be reasonable. This was the last chance to partner as our own design under L&T is maturing fast. Naval group could have worked with MDL to made it a base to exports submarine. We have the scale, resources and cost effective. French navy dont operate SSKs anyway.

We want the best equipment because we have capable adversaries, unlike you or your other customers. Your doctrine thought 80KM MICA is fine, ARM is unnecessary and Spectra was enough, but here we are.
If you really want the best equipment, then you should have chosen the Barracuda.
 
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India going for German-origin submarines, may scrap project for more French ones


NEW DELHI: India may scrap the proposed project to build another three French-origin Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks (MDL), while it goes full steam ahead with the plan to construct six new German-origin diesel-electric stealth submarines at the same facility for over Rs 70,000 crore.
The plan for the three additional Scorpene submarines, which would have cost around Rs 36,000 crore, “is not being pursued now”, though the “final decision to scrap it has not yet been taken in black and white”, top govt sources have told TOI.

While cost negotiations for the three more Scorpenes concluded in the last fiscal itself, the final nod from the PM-led cabinet committee on security (CCS) is “on hold” because the German submarines are considered “a generation ahead” of them, the sources added.
“Moreover, it would be difficult for MDL to handle two different complex submarine-building projects simultaneously,” a source said. The three new Scorpenes were to add to the six such submarines already built at MDL under the over Rs 23,000 crore `Project-75’, which was inked way back in Oct 2005.

The first, INS Kalvari, was commissioned in Dec 2017 after much delay and the sixth, INS Vagsheer, in Jan this year. All the six Kalvari-class submarines will, however, be retrofitted with the air-independent propulsion (AIP) system being developed by DRDO for greater underwater endurance.
AIP gives a diesel-electric submarine the stealth capability to remain underwater for around two weeks, while a boat without it must surface or `snorkel’ every couple of days to get oxygen to recharge its batteries.
The German submarines to be constructed at MDL under `Project-75India (P-75I), in partnership with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), will have AIP, land-attack cruise missiles and other new-generation technologies.

The decision to take forward the final techno-commercial negotiations for the six German submarines -- with the option for another three of them at a later stage -- was taken after extensive deliberations among the defence ministry, Navy, the National Security Council Secretariat and others, the sources said.

Consequently, the official contract talks for MDL to build the six German submarines began last month. “These new-generation boats under P-75I will come with design ToT (transfer of technology) and a greater indigenisation level of around 60%. The project will serve as a bridge to the future P-76, under which conventional submarines will be constructed based on totally indigenous design,” another source said.

Considering France’s expansive strategic partnership with India, there is however still the possibility that the case for three more Scorpenes could be revived if there is top-level intervention.

Sources, on their part, say France should be pleased that it is on course to bag several other major projects. For one, the govt-to-govt deal for additional Rafales under the IAF’s around Rs 2 lakh crore project for 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (MRFA), in which the bulk of the jets will be manufactured in India, is now in the works, as was reported by TOI.

For another, the collaboration to co-develop a new powerful jet engine with French major Saran – at a cost of Rs 61,000 crore -- for India’s fifth-generation stealth fighter called AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft) has also been virtually finalized.

Amid all this, the Navy is keeping its fingers crossed. Apart from the six Scorpenes, the Navy is left with just six old Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines in its conventional underwater fleet. It also has two nuclear-powered submarines armed with ballistic missiles.

China, incidentally, has over 50 diesel-electric and 10 nuclear submarines. It is also supplying eight new Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines with AIP to Pakistan in what will be a major capability jump for the latter.
Congrats to TKMS.
The hold on Scorpene deal may alse be seen as a late try to cut the cost.
I'm quite sure it is possible to built the 3 scorpene before the TKMS subs without big trouble.
 
It may be that the French subs are like their aircraft? Overpriced and underperforming

"Even though the cost negotiations for the French Scorpenes had been wrapped up in the last fiscal, the PM led Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has put their final clearance ‘on hold’ as the German submarines are considered to be a generation ahead of the French"

Say an Australian average people, whose country abort a deal to built themselves 12 subs and agree for at least 3 x the initial cost just to built a maximum of 5, 10 years late.
So your opinion is not solicited, as perverted.