Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

Ankit Kumar

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Interesting tit bit, take it or leave it.

"When the Kilo goes silent it is quieter than the Scorpene."

Nothing else to add from my end.
There is a difference of 10+db when the engines are running of an 877EKM to that of a Scorpene.

And the OEM offers options for support to ensure 240+ days at sea with Scorpene. Try to get even half of that with a 30 year old 877.

877 was good for what it was made. But Scorpene is a generation ahead.
 

RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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Interesting tit bit, take it or leave it.

"When the Kilo goes silent it is quieter than the Scorpene."

Nothing else to add from my end.
8 years back I had the opportunity to have a tour of IN Western fleet operational base and things weren't pretty. Soviet/Russian platforms are by no means not capable enough but they do have their inherent risks associated with them, one of them being intensive maintaince compared to Western matured platforms. They get the job done but at cost (and some time with lives lost). Kilo used to be top dog "within a specific criteria" however that selling date is already expired.

On the air force matter, long time ago I had explained about internal dissatisfaction with Russian platforms from Indian Air force ground maintenance & support team as my teacher during school days is one of them. No change even after 12 years, it remains where it was except burning of fat cheque.

On army front, again said in past, my own uncle heads a Military institution in NE sector since at least 15 years now and brother is engaged in special operations. Similar observations there as well when it comes to rapid degradations in military supplies quality over a period of time. I have heard some very critical views from concerned people. Heck even there seems to be pushback from Russians that such views not leaked as it is contrary to the claim of not only Russian MICs but also operators (read as Indian military).

NATO abbreviations means little now as compared to when they were really issued back then. And many a times NATO / US would exaggerate the capabilities of Russian platforms, to keep the heat on and supply/support continuence of MIC support.
 

Sathya

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Dec 2, 2017
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He is talking silent mode, probably with latest Li Battery ..
Scorpene probably has older tech in silent mode to move on...
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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He is talking silent mode, probably with latest Li Battery ..
Scorpene probably has older tech in silent mode to move on...
We do understand that all this Li Battery talk is on paper right now ? And when it's actually ready it will find way to all our submarines? But because of better damping measures in Scorpene it will still have lesser signature than that of 877.
But with way superior sensor suite
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Frankly I thought they had already validated this technology vide a land based model to the IN's satisfaction nearly 3-4 yrs ago & were supposed to be demonstrating it on a sub post successful certification of which this would go into the remaining Kalvari class subs.

This could only mean that with the last of the Kalvari's out of MDL , as per plan one of them will be docked in for MLU where in the entire mid section will be cut open to insert the AIP plug for sea trials. I hope the entire exercise of sea trials & certification doesn't exceed 4 yrs .
 

Sathya

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The AIP module will first need to be certified on a test platform before it's used in operations. So a prototype needs to be fitted on a submarine (I hoped it would be Type209, but it seems it will be Scorpene only now) , and will be tested in phase wise manner after which the deal will be signed.

Yeah using scorpene instead of type 209 would reduce the time to integrate with scorpene s.
Seems like we ll see AIP scorpene in 2030
 

Ankit Kumar

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Yeah using scorpene instead of type 209 would reduce the time to integrate with scorpene s.
Seems like we ll see AIP scorpene in 2030
It will also take away a platform when force levels are depleting fast. That's my concern. Taking the oldest Type 209 as a test bed will not really affect the force levels, but taking a Scorpene out will have effects.

However getting modern torpedos for the submarine is a bigger headache.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
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MDL (Experience with Type 209 and Scorpene) + HSL (Experience with Kilo) + DRDO lab (it has a baseline ssk design concept available) + any willing pvt sector (Like L&T which has experience in hull fabrication)

All of them should come together and go full throttle on an Indian SSK now. And then hire Naval Group for consultation during testing/certification. Get Rubin for trials during weapons integration.

This effort can surely lead to steel cutting of a prototype vessel by 2025-26. And by this decade end we will have a prototype Vessel under testing. And then by 2032-33 we will be able to start producing our own SSK.

We need to take the initiative now.

For the interim 10 year period, I suppose leasing 877 hull retiring from Russia will need to be done.

And this is according to be somewhere between realistic and pessimistic timeframe. With serious efforts, which are not actually too bold , timelines can be advanced by 2-3 years.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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MDL (Experience with Type 209 and Scorpene) + HSL (Experience with Kilo) + DRDO lab (it has a baseline ssk design concept available) + any willing pvt sector (Like L&T which has experience in hull fabrication)

All of them should come together and go full throttle on an Indian SSK now. And then hire Naval Group for consultation during testing/certification. Get Rubin for trials during weapons integration.

This effort can surely lead to steel cutting of a prototype vessel by 2025-26. And by this decade end we will have a prototype Vessel under testing. And then by 2032-33 we will be able to start producing our own SSK.

We need to take the initiative now.

For the interim 10 year period, I suppose leasing 877 hull retiring from Russia will need to be done.

And this is according to be somewhere between realistic and pessimistic timeframe. With serious efforts, which are not actually too bold , timelines can be advanced by 2-3 years.
Talking about components we are doing work on the Sonar systems, but we need to catch up on flank arrays and modern spherical systems now being used in the west.

Submarine launched torpedos are under works. They will not be the best, but they will be better than anything we have right now and will be good enough to take on our threats. That will be a start.

Submarine launched subsonic cruise missile for anti ship and land attack are also under development. We should be able to do that.

We have now started to look into Li ion batteries , so that is another area that we should be able to have a working system.

We should now get an older sub to start testing the AIP system.

Next the Combat Management system, i assume we have done considerable work on SSBNs for this and we should be able to modify something for SSK.

Now things which we will likely depend on Europe and USA. They are diesel engines, generators, different types of masts , etc.

And until we start work on a prototype we will not be able to bring all these things together and check out the teething issues.
 
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randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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MDL (Experience with Type 209 and Scorpene) + HSL (Experience with Kilo) + DRDO lab (it has a baseline ssk design concept available) + any willing pvt sector (Like L&T which has experience in hull fabrication)

All of them should come together and go full throttle on an Indian SSK now. And then hire Naval Group for consultation during testing/certification. Get Rubin for trials during weapons integration.

This effort can surely lead to steel cutting of a prototype vessel by 2025-26. And by this decade end we will have a prototype Vessel under testing. And then by 2032-33 we will be able to start producing our own SSK.

We need to take the initiative now.

For the interim 10 year period, I suppose leasing 877 hull retiring from Russia will need to be done.

And this is according to be somewhere between realistic and pessimistic timeframe. With serious efforts, which are not actually too bold , timelines can be advanced by 2-3 years.

It's going to take many years though. The plan was to work on P-76 while P-75I was being built. So when P-75I started hitting the water, P-76 would enter production, which means the first 3 SSNs will be delivered faster. So I don't believe leasing more Kilos will do the trick here.

If the tender fails, then we will need to replace it with a GTG.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Dec 4, 2017
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If the tender fails, then we will need to replace it with a GTG.

P 75 I has already failed

The walking out by Foreign OEMs was a rude but necessary reality for GOI

High Technology CANNOT be bought , no matter how much you are willing to pay

Otherwise CHINA would buy All High Tech companies in the world

We must wake up and smell the Coffee 😴
 
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Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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It's going to take many years though. The plan was to work on P-76 while P-75I was being built. So when P-75I started hitting the water, P-76 would enter production, which means the first 3 SSNs will be delivered faster. So I don't believe leasing more Kilos will do the trick here.

If the tender fails, then we will need to replace it with a GTG.
If we put all the available resources then having a prototype vessel in water by 2030 is very doable in my opinion.
Ofcourse the first iteration would be not the best in the world but still should be contemporary.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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More like it can start work on 2 subs at a time and then after around a year's time start work on another 2. And around 36-40 months time for their delivery/trials.

During 36 month period of course it can lay the hull for 6 and cut steel for more.

But in layman's terms, laying down 2 subs at a time will be more accurate.