Indian team goes abroad to scout for assault rifles, carbines for armed forces
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
I have always had my eye out for 7.62x51N semi auto rifle. In the last 3-4 years I have had the opportunity to shoot 5 of them,
FAL (DSA Imbel) (18"B
PTR 91 (G3 -Semi Auto) (18"B)
AR10 (18"B)
Keltec RFB (18"B)
Saiga 7.62X51N (16"B)
My suspicion is that the OFB 7.62N borrows heavily from the saiga 7.62N, among the 5 guns I listed above, I ended up owning the AR10, but I took a liking to the first three. Keltec is untrustworthy, saiga (AK) although extremely reliable, had something off. For starter the recoil impulse was weird, the rifle at 100 yards was shooting 4 inch groups with 168G Sierra MKHP which is not ideal for $1000 gun, its worse than my AK which was weird, it might be just that rifle and not reflect on the entire family but I did not feel like it was worth spending money on. On that day i did not have anything to compare it to other than my bolt gun but that would be an unfair comparison.
Personally I would not keep going with this system instead design from scratch a family with machined receiver. I have not seen much about the OFB 7.62 gun, but I have read it failed the trials, If OFB wants to develop and given it wants to base it on a proven design there might be some ways to do so.
there might be two ways out:
The AK way:
It might want to first start with looking at a SVD Draganuv type 3 locking lug bolt and a short stroke gas system, instead of a entire action and piston moving as in long stroke the action is independent of the piston and can be tweaked to vent the gas not needed, due to lesser of reciprocating mass and faster bolt face opening there will be less of flex in the system, which will not compromise reliability and still enhance accuracy.
The AR way:
Manufacture a pure AR10 Direct impingement gun with milspec lower and upper in 7.62x51N with an 18" barrel and free float barrel to use aas a DMR rifle.
Use the same Rifle to create a Piston version for Assault rifle in 16" barrel.
User the same lower and swap the upper receiver to 6.5 Creedmoor in 20" barrel for a 1000 yard precision rifle.
It appears to me that we can make an AR without ramming rod using short piston principle and bullpup design. such an AR will be extremely light, have far fewer moving parts and also be extremely accurate. I designed one such AR today.
I think it has to do more with range rather that the doctrine you suggest. The fact of the matter is Pakistani G3's outshoot Insas 556 when they come in post to post exchange.
That is not a personal opinion, I had an informal chat with a Sr Officer of the IA about 3-4 month ago (railway station chat), he said this. the accuracy bit at LoC is inconsequential because we usually blow out their bunkers (with usually tons of expendable high caliber amo which would expire anyway) if they start Small arms fire.
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"At LoC" case, the Caliber change is for the entire army. That is for Counter insurgency and for war time as well. LoC dominance is a part of Army ops, not all of it.
gain, I very well think carrying 7.62 nato is going to be counterproductive for the amount of rounds the soldier can carry in addition the rifle is going be to be heavier and there will be a weight penalty. IA could have played it smart and transitioned to a 6.5 gen or 6.8spc and it would have the best of both world, good terminal ballistics, flat shooting cartridge and long range engagement.
7.62x51N is not really meant for assault rifle, by definition assault rifles were characterized by an intermediate cartridge > bigger than the pistol caliber SMG and smaller than the battle rifle full size caliber. Knowing that IA will not induct a 6.5 gren or 6.8spc, it must keep a mix of intermediate 5.56N and 7.62 nato, a HK416/417 or SCAR H/L type combination.
That is true, but I guess hollow points will make more sense than FMJs, if they are going to get the desired results. But as far as the infantry personnel I have spoken to... by and large favor this caliber even at the cost of weight penalty ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
I don't know how this plays out.
INSAS 5.45 rifle weighs 4.15Kg while the Galil 7.62 weighs 3.7Kg. Any idea how heavy the two mags are? INSAS comes with 20 round and 30 round mags, the 20 round mag is typically for the AR version. The Galil has 20 and 25 rounds, IIRC.
The new BPJ and helmet are also much lighter than the currently deployed ones, saving quite a few kilograms there. So I think the soldiers will carry an overall lesser weight even after the switch to the 7.62.
neither do I. I was really hopeful of a caliber change when I heard MCIWS in 6.8 SPC.
I am guessing you meant insas 556 typo. Newer gun will be lighter, and you are right about Galil 7.62x51 > Galil ACE 52,52L and 53 all weigh from 3.6 to 3.8 kgs compared to a Insas that weighs 4.15 kg. But if you are comparing galil ace, then you must compare it to a newer gun (SCAR-L 3.29kg, or bren 3.6 kg)
(OT: HK416 weighs 4kgs for 14.5 barrel> I'm surprised)
Cartridge to cartridge, it comes down to :
5.56 x 45 Nato : 11.8g
7.62x51 nato : 25.4g
And this is with brass case, knowing OFB, it will most likely be steel case ammo, so add another 10%.
Standard loadout I am assuming would be 4 mags in the vest, and one in the gun. Assume 30 round mags for both.
150 rounds x 11.8 = 1.77kg
150 rounds x 25.4 = 3.81 kg
For every 100 rounds of 7.62x51Nato, the equivalent weight of 5.56 is 215 rounds. Supplying one truck of ammunition to the front line would yield twice the fired bullets by the battalion.
Currently has to contend with
7.62x39, 7.62x51N, 7.62x54R, 5.56x45, 9mm, 12.7x108.
With a 6.5 gren, it could have replaced > 7.62x39, 7.62x51N, 7.62x54R, and 5.56x45, leaving only three major calibers after full replacement occurs. But given that wont happen, may be the solution could be : 7.62x51 Nato as LMG/Battle Rifle/DMR/Sniper rifle, 7.62x39 Assault Rifle, Squad Support MG, 9mm sidearm/carbine and 12.7x108 HMG/Anti-material. (Effectively phasing out 5.56 nato and 7.62x54 SVD Dragunov)
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no HP's, they are great for impact, but if you are trying to penetrate say a light wall, a volley of FMJ's will be magical, while HP's not so much. HP's are for take down, also manufacturing HP's is tricky and given OFB > sticking to FMJ's would be my vote irrespective of the caliber.
if i were a part of the decision maker, i would have begged and bullied for this rifle to be produced in lakhs with the lowest possible price and armed all front line forces with this. right from kashmir police to crpf to the army all throughout. in kashmir, in NE, in all places where there is insurgency. bull pup is ideal for insurgency type situations. and we are making this right here in india. i wish..
X95 is a good rifle system; but from what I keep hearing, IA doesn't wan't a bull-pup. And given that IWI already transferred tech to OFB to make Zittara > Tavor, why would Punjj Lyoyd tavor needed in the equation; that part is a bit perplexing.
For the infantry, 1.77 vs 3.81 is not a lot, even after counting their other baggage. But getting those on top of mountains is not gonna be fun for the logistics guys.
i don't really trust the OFB production quality and their quality checks for frontline usage especially in insurgency prone areas like the pockets of NE where army jawans are deployed and especially in Kashmir...why ? cause it's a Israel made gun. it does score some points when tangos get killed by Israeli guns. its puts a bit of red chili powder in the wounds. LoL...we may laugh about it but this is art of war kinda psychological stuff. it has a meaning in illiterate uneducated minds. that's how you create demons out of men. cover every aspect of the story...its funny and laughable..but yes, it does matter. trust me..
seriously, the OFB carbines and rifles can and should be used for CAPFs, yes, for the police units still using the old carbine, please get the quality checks done on each gun sold and yes please give them to the old carbine using RPFs and state police teams. i very often see them toting the older stuff. well maintained but older stuff.
for the front line men, i really would like to have a bull pup with a full 7x62.51 for the ghataks, the RR boys, the kasmir police SOG, basically the very boys we send in to terminate termites especially in valleys where there is a house held up..close quarter stuff happens very often. no questions asked they should get a full caliber bull pup. the bull pup is meant for situations like this. there is a reason when Israel went for one of their own designs, they designed a bull pup. me zinks anyway..
Only bullpup in 7.62x51nato i know is the Keltec RFB, and is a POS imho. Tavor is not offered in 7.62x51 nato afaik yet.
With the rest I respectfully disagree, I might have a lot of grievances about OFB's innovation and design competence, but from quality control perspective the only area where there is a complain is the smokeless powder consistency in cartridge, (which is hearsay ) and is not extraordinary. I encounter the same with Sellier bellot, Aguila, remington and in some instances even Winchester bulk ammo.
As far as frontline systems are concerned, do not forget that:
PKM's and NSV MMG/HMG on all of the tanks and IFV's are made by OFB
105 mm LFG and IFG's are made by OFB
23 mm cannons and l70's are made by OFB
most of drop tanks for legacy fighter jets are made by OFB
AK630, CRN 91, for most ships are made by OFB
MGL40, UBGL's, 81 and 120mm nortars all are made by OFB
HVF is also part of OFB, thus makes Arjun, T90, BMP sarath, > entire Indian Armor.
If OFB's quality is supect, then 90% of frontline systems in Indian armed forces is suspect.
So yes, OFB might have issues with innovation and drive but accusing it poor quality, I wouldn't go that far without having firsthand information of that.
true..true..very true..by OFB i meant the rifle factories. i wrote OFB, but I meant rifle factories. i have had personal encounters with the ichapore factory workers, and they are in a govt job. never mind they're making guns. they worry about their unions and the power structure between office colleagues. worthless. they wont get employed anywhere else but where they got in once. these guys are plainly speaking incapable of designing a gun from scratch. most of them have never shot with a gun while they do have the opportunity to do so if they were inclined to. i despised the lot.
I understand where you are coming from. Most government orgs, ofb, HAL, drdo, csl> all have this hideous union culture among the technicians.
Not that I am anti- union or anything, but the *censored*ization of Unions is rampant among Indian Government firms.
Off topic, but other than bongs, i seldom here the term "ichapore" its always sounds ishapore, I enjoyed that - thanks .
Lastly > little known fact, When FNFAL> SLR1 was being introduced in india, Indian Army did not have enough of the rifles, so they converted Lee Enfield SMLE to fire 7.62x51Nato. Incidentally Ishapore SMLE chambered in 7.62x51 nato made it to US civilian markets and is one of the most sought after SMLE's out there right alongside Rhodesian and South African SMLE's and SMLE Jungle Carbines.