Indian team goes abroad to scout for assault rifles, carbines for armed forces

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NEW DELHI: The government has dispatched a nine-member "empowered committee", headed by an Army brigadier, to the US, Australia, South Korea, Israel and UAE to scout for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines for the armed forces.

The defence ministry in March had finally set the ball rolling for the acquisition of 72,400 assault rifles, 93,895 CQB carbines, which were promised for infantry soldiers deployed on the borders with China and Pakistan under the fast-track procedure (FTP), by floating initial tenders or RFPs (requests for proposal) for them, as was first reported by TOI.

"The empowered committee, which left on Saturday, will trial evaluate the rifles and carbines of the OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) or vendors in the different countries. The FTP selection will be based on operational requirements, and not on the long-drawn normal procurement process of GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements), field trials, staff evaluation etc," said an official.

The weapons found suitable by the empowered committee will then be brought to India by the OEMs for "compatibility tests" with Indian ammunition. The bids of those found compatible in the trials will subsequently be opened by the MoD.

These procurement cases for rifles and carbines are worth Rs 1,798 crore and Rs 1,749 crore, respectively. The FTP acquisition of 16,479 light machines for Rs 1,819 crore was also approved by the MoD in February but there is some delay in the case.

Under the Defence Procurement Procedure's strict timelines for the FTP, which caters for urgent operational requirements, the RFP has to be issued within 10 days of a case being cleared by the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) to ensure the actual contract after technical and commercial evaluation is inked within a year. The delivery of the weapons is supposed to thereafter take place in three to 12 months.


The Army is keeping its fingers crossed. The force had first asked for new assault rifles and CQB carbines for its 382 infantry battalions (each with 850 soldiers each) way back in 2005, while the case for the light machine guns was initiated in 2009.


But the long-drawn procurement projects were repeatedly scrapped due to graft allegations or unrealistic technical parameters as well as the lack of indigenous options for well over a decade.


Moreover, the FTP route is only for limited numbers of weapons due to critical operational necessity. For instance, the overall requirement is for 8.16 lakh new 7.62x51mm caliber assault rifles to replace the existing glitch-prone 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles. Similarly, the numbers are 4.58 lakh for close-quarter battle carbines (5.56 x 45mm) and 43,544 for light machine guns (7.62x51mm). While the bulk of the weapons are meant for the infantry, some have been earmarked for the Navy and IAF also.The defence ministry has said that the huge shortfalls will be met at a later stage with Indian companies (private ones as well as Ordnance Factory Board) tying up with foreign ones to manufacture them under the "Make in India" framework, which could take at least four to five years to actually take off.

Indian team goes abroad to scout for assault rifles, carbines for armed forces - Times of India
 
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The government has dispatched a nine-member "empowered committee", headed by an Army brigadier, to the US, Australia, South Korea, Israel and UAE to scout for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines for the armed forces.
Really? UAE??? What is its best defence product? Scouting for Assault Rifles and Carbines from Emirates? :LOL:The Arabs employ people to build for them, they don't do indigenous production.
 
NEW DELHI: The government has dispatched a nine-member "empowered committee", headed by an Army brigadier, to the US, Australia, South Korea, Israel and UAE to scout for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines for the armed forces.

How much money will be wasted? I guess MoD is paying but it should be deducted from army's budget though.
 
For instance, the overall requirement is for 8.16 lakh new 7.62x51mm caliber assault rifles to replace the existing glitch-prone 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles.

The requirement is for 8 lac rifles overall. That is comprised of 2.5 lac 7.62x51mm Nato-calibre ones reportedly for frontline units and 5.5 lakh rifles for rest of the infantry which could be either 5.56x45mm Nato or 7.62x39mm Kalashnikov.

Really? UAE??? What is its best defence product? Scouting for Assault Rifles and Carbines from Emirates? :LOL:The Arabs employ people to build for them, they don't do indigenous production.

Caracal International LLC is a UAE-based company that has several AR-15 based rifles in portfolio. They displayed products in this year's DEFEXPO and even got into a tie-up wherein the rifles could be manufactured in India by MKU.

http://www.caracal.ae/

download.jpg

CAR-817AR

The Caracal arms are originally manufactured at the Tawazun Industrial Park (TIP) near Abu Dhabi.

TIP - Tawazun
 
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NEW DELHI: The government has dispatched a nine-member "empowered committee", headed by an Army brigadier, to the US, Australia, South Korea, Israel and UAE to scout for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines for the armed forces.

The defence ministry in March had finally set the ball rolling for the acquisition of 72,400 assault rifles, 93,895 CQB carbines, which were promised for infantry soldiers deployed on the borders with China and Pakistan under the fast-track procedure (FTP), by floating initial tenders or RFPs (requests for proposal) for them, as was first reported by TOI.

"The empowered committee, which left on Saturday, will trial evaluate the rifles and carbines of the OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) or vendors in the different countries. The FTP selection will be based on operational requirements, and not on the long-drawn normal procurement process of GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements), field trials, staff evaluation etc," said an official.

The weapons found suitable by the empowered committee will then be brought to India by the OEMs for "compatibility tests" with Indian ammunition. The bids of those found compatible in the trials will subsequently be opened by the MoD.

These procurement cases for rifles and carbines are worth Rs 1,798 crore and Rs 1,749 crore, respectively. The FTP acquisition of 16,479 light machines for Rs 1,819 crore was also approved by the MoD in February but there is some delay in the case.

Under the Defence Procurement Procedure's strict timelines for the FTP, which caters for urgent operational requirements, the RFP has to be issued within 10 days of a case being cleared by the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) to ensure the actual contract after technical and commercial evaluation is inked within a year. The delivery of the weapons is supposed to thereafter take place in three to 12 months.


The Army is keeping its fingers crossed. The force had first asked for new assault rifles and CQB carbines for its 382 infantry battalions (each with 850 soldiers each) way back in 2005, while the case for the light machine guns was initiated in 2009.


But the long-drawn procurement projects were repeatedly scrapped due to graft allegations or unrealistic technical parameters as well as the lack of indigenous options for well over a decade.


Moreover, the FTP route is only for limited numbers of weapons due to critical operational necessity. For instance, the overall requirement is for 8.16 lakh new 7.62x51mm caliber assault rifles to replace the existing glitch-prone 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles. Similarly, the numbers are 4.58 lakh for close-quarter battle carbines (5.56 x 45mm) and 43,544 for light machine guns (7.62x51mm). While the bulk of the weapons are meant for the infantry, some have been earmarked for the Navy and IAF also.The defence ministry has said that the huge shortfalls will be met at a later stage with Indian companies (private ones as well as Ordnance Factory Board) tying up with foreign ones to manufacture them under the "Make in India" framework, which could take at least four to five years to actually take off.

Indian team goes abroad to scout for assault rifles, carbines for armed forces - Times of India

@randomradio wasn't this low priority according to you?

On topic I am not sure why Australia, I would pick the HK416 or CZ Bren and call it a day.
 
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UAE, Australia and South Korea don't have any well renowned rifles. Israel & USA are the only countries with good variety and quality of rifles out of the 5 countries mentioned.

It is really suspicious as to what exact reason did the MoD send delegation to these countries
 
The requirement is for 8 lac rifles overall. That is comprised of 2.5 lac 7.62x51mm Nato-calibre ones reportedly for frontline units and 5.5 lakh rifles for rest of the infantry which could be either 5.56x45mm Nato or 7.62x39mm Kalashnikov.



Caracal International LLC is a UAE-based company that has several AR-15 based rifles in portfolio. They displayed products in this year's DEFEXPO and even got into a tie-up wherein the rifles could be manufactured in India by MKU.

http://www.caracal.ae/

View attachment 2780
CAR-817AR

The Caracal arms are originally manufactured at the Tawazun Industrial Park (TIP) near Abu Dhabi.

TIP - Tawazun
Why exactly can't India make its own rifles but rely on these imports? Is the plan to supplant OFB and make the rifles in private industry only by getting foreign partners? Even then, why can't the rifles like JVPC and Excalibur be given as ToT to private industry to make it without any partnership with foreign entity?
@randomradio wasn't this low priority according to you?
It indeed must be low priority as India already has the technology to make rifles. Also, seeking imported rifles when Indian ones are working fine is something I don't understand
 
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The requirement is for 8 lac rifles overall. That is comprised of 2.5 lac 7.62x51mm Nato-calibre ones reportedly for frontline units and 5.5 lakh rifles for rest of the infantry which could be either 5.56x45mm Nato or 7.62x39mm Kalashnikov.



Caracal International LLC is a UAE-based company that has several AR-15 based rifles in portfolio. They displayed products in this year's DEFEXPO and even got into a tie-up wherein the rifles could be manufactured in India by MKU.

http://www.caracal.ae/

View attachment 2780
CAR-817AR

The Caracal arms are originally manufactured at the Tawazun Industrial Park (TIP) near Abu Dhabi.

TIP - Tawazun
So we are going after AR-15 ? What is the offer they give? total transfer of make and build or is it another buyer seller relationship. I have my doubts about UAE building a Assault rifle, they buy everything, not make themselves even the space launch which they foresee is employing talents from elsewhere to do the job.
Our home production is falling short of developing new models?
 
UAE, Australia and South Korea don't have any well renowned rifles. Israel & USA are the only countries with good variety and quality of rifles out of the 5 countries mentioned.

It is really suspicious as to what exact reason did the MoD send delegation to these countries
The only battle tested guns are Israel and USA ones, rest are new names. Unless the rest offer something very new and astonishing, i wouldn't bet on anything, seems to me like another MoD junket trip, the demand for these guns has been there since 2005 and these people were sitting on their backsides while India was developing Cryo Engine Rockets. That itself should tell you the story of our Projectile Weapons projects.
 
It indeed must be low priority as India already has the technology to make rifles. Also, seeking imported rifles when Indian ones are working fine is something I don't understand
Let Indian organisation design one rifle from scratch and then we will talk.
 
The only battle tested guns are Israel and USA ones, rest are new names. Unless the rest offer something very new and astonishing, i wouldn't bet on anything, seems to me like another MoD junket trip, the demand for these guns has been there since 2005 and these people were sitting on their backsides while India was developing Cryo Engine Rockets. That itself should tell you the story of our Projectile Weapons projects.
SCAR, HK 416/417, CZ Bren, even older contenders like upgraded M4A1 Mk18 mod0, and Steyr Aug are really good platforms. It's not just limited to the US and Israel.
 
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So we are going after AR-15 ? What is the offer they give? total transfer of make and build or is it another buyer seller relationship. I have my doubts about UAE building a Assault rifle, they buy everything, not make themselves even the space launch which they foresee is employing talents from elsewhere to do the job.
Our home production is falling short of developing new models?
UAE may have got ToT of rifle manufacturing. UAE will not launch any space vehicle with others help. No one gives away technology of space launch vehicles.
 
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SCAR, HK 416/417, CZ Bren, even older contenders like upgraded M4A1 Mk18 mod0, and Steyr Aug are really good platforms. It's not just limited to the US and Israel.
I agree they are all good . But our MoD is on a imaginary fishing trip for the ultimate super soldier Gun of the future. This is what i am worried about. This acquisition was due from 2005 on wards that is 13 years of looking up for a perfect gun. That is just ridiculous.:D
 
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UAE, Australia and South Korea don't have any well renowned rifles. Israel & USA are the only countries with good variety and quality of rifles out of the 5 countries mentioned.

It is really suspicious as to what exact reason did the MoD send delegation to these countries

Caracal Arms of UAE got significant exposure at DEFEXPO-2018 so I'm not surprised they're being considered (they're one of the few companies that offer both 5.56 and 7.62 rifles of the same family under one roof, so it's not wise to disregard them).

As of Australia...I'm guessing they will be visiting the Lithgow Small Arms Factory (subsidiary of Thales Australia) which manufactures the Steyr AUG variants under license and also designed & produced the new EF88/F90 version:

1360862215.jpg


S&T Motiv (previously known as S&T Daewoo) of South Korea is actually a pretty high-profile small arms maker with a wide product portfolio. Although I can't imagine us going for a dated platform like the K2 rifle.

I still imagine IWI of Israel as the most likely winner of any foreign order for small arms for IA.

Why exactly can't India make its own rifles but rely on these imports?

See, the OFB R2 (7.62x51mm) was rejected previously because of excessive recoil & noise issues. Until OFB can come up with a improved version that mitigates these problems, foreign rifles cannot be ruled out. OFB is already working on this.

Is the plan to supplant OFB and make the rifles in private industry only by getting foreign partners? Even then, why can't the rifles like JVPC and Excalibur be given as ToT to private industry to make it without any partnership with foreign entity?

Ordnance Factories will not allow outsourcing of production to private companies. They are worse than Unions in that regard. And I don't think MoD has the balls to completely piss them off.

It indeed must be low priority as India already has the technology to make rifles. Also, seeking imported rifles when Indian ones are working fine is something I don't understand

As the article says this is for limited numbers as an emergency order more or less. I still think there is a high possibility that eventually IA will end up with new-generation OFB rifles as standard-issue at least as far as the 5.5 lakh requirement is concerned. As far as the 2.5 lakh orders for 7.62x51 rifles go, I sincerely hope that IWI-Punj Llyod will win with either ACE 52 or Tavor 7AR.
 
What do you think is INSAS 1BI1, JVPC or Excalibur?

Now, talk
Insas the entire platform is based on an longstroke piston action, so is excalibur, and so is your JVPC. the stamped reciever, ever the trigger spring, trunnion, gas block and even the freakin dust cover is based off the AKM platform, and the rest the charging handle and the gas regulator based on the FAL. Excalibur is derrived from the insas, as far as theMSMC/JVPC , even thinking of a longstroke piston for a PDW is just freakin ratchet.


Once OFB is capable of designing a rifle from scratch, we can applaud their amazing 218 year legacy.
 
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See, the OFB R2 (7.62x51mm) was rejected previously because of excessive recoil & noise issues. Until OFB can come up with a improved version that mitigates these problems, foreign rifles cannot be ruled out. OFB is already working on this.
All other rifles were also rejected. Again,‌ amongst the stoppage, OFB rifle was passing the test. Recoil is something dependent upon the weight if the rifle and the power of bullet. I don't see how one can reduce the recoil for 7.62NATO as the bulel5 of very fast and heavy. No other gun has passed even the stoppage limit test
Ordnance Factories will not allow outsourcing of production to private companies. They are worse than Unions in that regard. And I don't think MoD has the balls to completely piss them off.
This may be a valid reason for importing rifles. Caracal of UAE has signed joint venture with MKU for manufacturing in India while allowing MKU to sell its optics in UAE.
Insas the entire platform is based on an longstroke piston action, so is excalibur, and so is your JVPC. the stamped reciever, ever the trigger spring, trunnion, gas block and even the freakin dust cover is based off the AKM platform, and the rest the charging handle and the gas regulator based on the FAL. Excalibur is derrived from the insas, as far as theMSMC/JVPC , even thinking of a longstroke piston for a PDW is just freakin ratchet.


Once OFB is capable of designing a rifle from scratch, we can applaud their amazing 218 year legacy.
The long stroke design is used in AK series (47, 74, 103) and AR series rifles. Long sttoke is the most popular type of rifles due to its efficient design and lesser moving parts. It is obvious that most guns share similaity as the technology ia not too complex and hence almost everyone who designs a gun will design in certain fixed manner.

Making a gun is not a big accomplishment. I was just replying to your absurd comment.
 
Why exactly can't India make its own rifles but rely on these imports? Is the plan to supplant OFB and make the rifles in private industry only by getting foreign partners? Even then, why can't the rifles like JVPC and Excalibur be given as ToT to private industry to make it without any partnership with foreign entity?

It indeed must be low priority as India already has the technology to make rifles. Also, seeking imported rifles when Indian ones are working fine is something I don't understand

JVPC is not lethal enough army is going for 5.56x45mm instead. Excalibur is better than INSAS 1B1 but OFB is working on AR2 for rifle tender. Just look MCIWS, it was for army's requirement then they refused it saying multi-calibre not suitable for battlefield or some crap like that. DRDO has completed the development but now army is going for 0.308 instead. When you have user like Indian army with ever changing GSQRs its better to import(which obviously army wants) though we have foreign vendors also like Colt and Beretta pulled out of the contest.
 
All other rifles were also rejected. Again,‌ amongst the stoppage, OFB rifle was passing the test. Recoil is something dependent upon the weight if the rifle and the power of bullet. I don't see how one can reduce the recoil for 7.62NATO as the bulel5 of very fast and heavy. No other gun has passed even the stoppage limit test

OFB is already working on solving the issues. Like addition of a new compensator (if I remember correctly) seen in the latest model at DEFEXPO.

Let's see where they get.

Either way, the news in the OP is regarding fast-track purchase citing emergency requirement. It will be a while before large-scale production order for either 7.62 Nato or 5.56/Kalashnikov rifles is placed.
 
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Caracal Arms of UAE got significant exposure at DEFEXPO-2018 so I'm not surprised they're being considered (they're one of the few companies that offer both 5.56 and 7.62 rifles of the same family under one roof, so it's not wise to disregard them).
Is this the demand of Army to have a gun where the barrels could be changed and the calibers?
As of Australia...I'm guessing they will be visiting the Lithgow Small Arms Factory (subsidiary of Thales Australia) which manufactures the Steyr AUG variants under license and also designed & produced the new EF88/F90 version:
Why not just buy the Steyr AUG model from Austria in Toto and then develop your own variants down the line in a year or two?
&T Motiv (previously known as S&T Daewoo) of South Korea is actually a pretty high-profile small arms maker with a wide product portfolio. Although I can't imagine us going for a dated platform like the K2 rifle.

I still imagine IWI of Israel as the most likely winner of any foreign order for small arms for IA.
I guess the same it will go to Israel or USA ,makes it part of foreign relations too. Since we are buying too many USA made weaponry.
See, the OFB R2 (7.62x51mm) was rejected previously because of excessive recoil & noise issues. Until OFB can come up with a improved version that mitigates these problems, foreign rifles cannot be ruled out. OFB is already working on this.
From 2005 onwards OFB was not able to produce one sane model? i find it difficult to digest. What happened to the Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC) ? It was too heavy? its bullets too heavy? or other reasons like Cartridges cracking in Cold?
Ordnance Factories will not allow outsourcing of production to private companies. They are worse than Unions in that regard. And I don't think MoD has the balls to completely piss them off.
Maybe it is time they told "If you can't stand the heat then get the hell out of the Kitchen".
As the article says this is for limited numbers as an emergency order more or less. I still think there is a high possibility that eventually IA will end up with new-generation OFB rifles as standard-issue at least as far as the 5.5 lakh requirement is concerned. As far as the 2.5 lakh orders for 7.62x51 rifles go, I sincerely hope that IWI-Punj Llyod will win with either ACE 52 or Tavor 7AR.
Looking at all these Defence acquisitions of ours i am also tempted to try and make my own company, where i can sell my products if i got the right connections.
I can safely assume those lakhs of orders you say will not be filled by any homemade production, because of the kickbacks.
I understand the picture and will give you an example from my profession.
Foreign companies offer kickbacks if you promote their Medical products, Prosthesis over Indian made ones, where the difference is not that much in terms of quality between Indian made ones and Foreign made ones, but there is a huge difference in cost(Which is why poor people cannot afford it you are selling them a prosthesis or a stent which could be made in 20-25000 Rupees VS a 70,000 Rupees foreign made Stents, the only difference in quality is the foreign made stent might last 5 years, while our home made stent will last 4 or 4 and half years, it is all debatable the time period and quality of life).
The foreign companies value it in Dollars, while our Indian Companies value it in Rupees. Ever wonder why our home made Medical Prosthesis etc. are not given a preference in our Corporate Hospitals? Now you know!
The same thing is afflicting our Defence and Acquisition, call it what you want, but i can see it easily.
 
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