Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
197
128
Surat
I believe LG Ammo is easier to develop and cheaper than exorbitantly costly M982. It’s jusy another fancy item like rafale and F35.
LG ammo is used by Pakistanis quite frequently at LOC
@safriz

I’m not even sure if planes like JF17 and Mirage V etc are worth shooting with such costly AAMs .
Therefore I have always said that a missile like Akash Mk2 can deliver maximum punch per Rupee. An Akash mk2 like missile with between 1to 2 crore and 40 km + range can be ideal to bring down low cost missile like Mirage V or JF 17 or Chinese J series. MR SAM will be too costly.
We have also done mirror deployment.
Had we had baba kalyani light gun in place, balance would have further tilted in our favor.
 

HariPrasad

Active member
Dec 5, 2018
197
128
Surat
Terrible State of Indian Artillery

George S. Patton famously said, “I do not have to tell you who won the war. You know, the artillery did.” There is a huge dilemma for the Indian artillery with this sentence. A nation that tries to maintain 3:1 ratio with Pakistan vis-à-vis its conventional firepower is reeling from decades of institutional inaction led obsolescence and some delays due to bizarre project planning and execution. Today as it stand, most of it’s prime artillery force is either decommissioned or in the state of dismay.
Current State
Following is the head to head comparison between towed artillery of India and Pakistan.

India total towed strength on paper stands at 4150 compared to Pakistan’s 3278 which to begin with is a grave issue for a nation trying to maintain 1:3 ratio in conventional firepower against Pakistan. Add to the fact no one has the seen the S23 and D30 guns in action, neither does the Ordinance factory board produce any ammunition in 180mm and 122 mm calibers, that points to the fact these units are either mothballed or out of service. This brings the total strength of Indian towed artillery to 3500 units- almost neck and neck with a potential adversary where we supposedly brandish the term “numerical superiority”.
Heavy Artillery
Pakistan fields couple of dozen of 203mm gun, and POF still manufactures the ammunition as it also possess 203mm Sel Propelled Guns. Whereas Indian heavy guns are out of action. Although this is not big advantage as 155 mm guns can discharge the duties of heavier guns circa WWII.
155mm Towed Artillery
In the modern 155 mm towed howitzer head to head competition, Indian Army falls short of it’s objectives outgunning and outnumbering the opposition.

India posses a total of 380 155mm guns compared to 394 Guns of Pakistan. This is quite perplexing as India had originally purchased about 410 155 FH77/B guns from Sweden with tech transfer, and only 200 of them survive. This points towards cannibalization of existing guns due to lack of spares which is pure negligence. Today OFB is touting that they are producing Dhanush 155mm guns for the army, a reasonable Explanation is indeed needed for loosing half the fleet of FH77/B over the years, when we haven’t had such terrible luck with the m46. where almost the entire fleet remains intact.

Another reason to worry is the transfer of technology from turkey to Pakistan in building the MKEK Panter, Pakistan is churning out about 30–40 guns every year of this kind, and most likely end up with about 350 units in next couple of year.
Metmorphosis gun has had tube blowouts a couple of time, so most likely it will run for the rest of it’s life as low ring charges to avoid such situations, which will most likely bring down it’s effective range from 39 km to about 25–28. So with the given inventory India does not possess the range or the numerical advantage over it’s Pakistani counterparts.
(On a side note, M46 has been a god-send Russian system for us, much like the Mig 21. It has lived past it’s age and still keeps running like a champ.)
Medium Artillery
When it came to medium artillery, India traditionally maintained heavy superiority against Pakistan with its 130mm and 122 mm cannons. Given Indian Army has decided to pull back all of it’s 122mm guns, Indian medium artillery looks abysmally weak in the comparison to Pakistani medium artillery. India has about 720 M46 130mm medium guns left in service, whereas Pakistan’s 130mm M46 clones and 122 mm variants stand at a staggering 1243 units, almost 500 more medium guns than India.

And this ratio will continue to skew as we eat into long range M46’s and turn them into short range 155mm upgrade. Another aspect t note is Pakistani army’s Type 54 is a 21 Caliber (Length) gun, i.e it’s shorter and highly mobile gun. India on the other hand has chosen not to field any short range, highly mobile medium sized gun which can be used for border escalations.

Light Artillery
The only area where India posses an edge is in the light artillery with is indigenous 105mm work horses IFG and LFG units. India posses about 2400 field guns compared to 1643 guns comprising of 105 mm, 85mm and quarter pounders that Pakistan fields.


One of the major advantages of the Indian Field Guns is the barrel length of 37 Caliber which is longer than all of the comparable 105mm Pakistani light Artillery, which gives it a significant range advantage. Also the Light Field Gun is highly mobile and offsets the portability of the 85mm guns of the adversary. This is one area where Indian army truly outguns the opposition in both range, effectiveness and inventory.
Future State
Indian Army seems to have made up it’s mind on consolidating 155 mm in different length-calibers as it mainstay in towed artillery. A 1600 towed gun contract seems to point at the same. Given Pakistans 155mm and Medium gun combined strength will stand at around 1900 guns in next 3–5 years, if Indian army want’s to pitch a 2:1 ratio it will need a combined strength of atleast 4000 guns.
Gap Analysis
As the 155mm inventory strength today stands at a measly 380 units, Indian establishment will still have a shortfall of about 2000 guns if it wants to get to a 1:2 ratio vis-a-vis Pakistan. With consolidation large and medium artillery Indian Army will need substantial efforts in converting most of it’s m46 fleet with a proven barrel solution for the Beas/Metamorphosis Program which can add another 700 odd 155 mm modified guns to the inventory. the 1600 towed artillery system will need a revamp or even an introduction of another system along side the one chosen to get similar advantages as we have gained in local production of IFG and LFG guns. Given that India doesn’t struggle in the Light Artillery, upgrade programs on 105mm LGF, along with catapult and kalyani Garuda ultralight guns can turn the Light Artillery into more efficient unit.
Conclusion
Indian Artillery is in extremely poor state, and the red tape with acquisition of artillery system has put the lifes of our soldiers to risk. Given that half of the medium artillery is out of commission, and prime front line FH77/B fleet has been cannibalized to half it’s size, it is of utmost importance to fast track both the development and the acquisition Processes for the towed artillery. Success story of the 105mm light Artillery has already set the precedence for Indian Army to follow local production of artillery system to be replicated in the 155mm category.

Written by @Milspec
There need to be an evaluation of decession making process. What if we shorten procurement time without wasting a long time on testing. It should be evaluated weather such a Long testing and evaluation time results into any fruitful outcome or that lengthy process harms Indian forces' inventory by delaying each and every procurement. A systematic statistical study will reveal weather this sort of procedures are fruitful aur not.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,126
5,506
India
I have been in Canada for less than 2 years and before that I was in India itself. As far as economic compulsion of Indian government goes; here is what India government and state governments are doing.

Building massive statues costing several hundreds of million dollars. Remember that Patel Statue? Upcoming Shivaji Statue? This could easily run near a billion dollars. Meanwhile our artillery suffers. For a 10 times bigger economy, we don't even have TWICE the artillery pieces of Pakistan.

A billion dollar would have been quite useful in purchasing quite a bit of artillery pieces and ammunition.
State govts are heading those statue projects. They don't care about India's artillery problems.
 

safriz

Well-Known member
Jan 1, 2018
1,408
427
UK, Pakistan
Didn't you guys buy some Italian guided munitions for your mortars??
Its expensive and unwanted.
I don't think Pakistan made any such purchase.
It was only reported by Indian media back in 2018.
The most "Fancy" thing in field artillery we got are the Base bleed rounds which is Just an add on gas cartridge to an existing 155mm shell.
General Kayani made some significant decisions about Artillery. Most important was to phase put all other calibre and make 155mm the standard.
It was in his era that base bleed factory was set up at POF Wah.
 

Hydra

Active member
May 19, 2020
486
221
Mumbai
Leave Bars, likes of OFB have been sitting on Bofors blueprints since 1980s and have not even bothered to produce that artillery piece. Arty is one of the weak foot of Indian Army and Indian government manufactures are sitting on the blueprint of an inducted arty without doing anything.

View attachment 16947
We are again making the same mistake with artillery. K9 has ordered only in 100 numbers, GOI is not giving further orders. The production facilities & technical know how gonna waste now.
 

Hydra

Active member
May 19, 2020
486
221
Mumbai
Terrible State of Indian Artillery

George S. Patton famously said, “I do not have to tell you who won the war. You know, the artillery did.” There is a huge dilemma for the Indian artillery with this sentence. A nation that tries to maintain 3:1 ratio with Pakistan vis-à-vis its conventional firepower is reeling from decades of institutional inaction led obsolescence and some delays due to bizarre project planning and execution. Today as it stand, most of it’s prime artillery force is either decommissioned or in the state of dismay.
Current State
Following is the head to head comparison between towed artillery of India and Pakistan.

India total towed strength on paper stands at 4150 compared to Pakistan’s 3278 which to begin with is a grave issue for a nation trying to maintain 1:3 ratio in conventional firepower against Pakistan. Add to the fact no one has the seen the S23 and D30 guns in action, neither does the Ordinance factory board produce any ammunition in 180mm and 122 mm calibers, that points to the fact these units are either mothballed or out of service. This brings the total strength of Indian towed artillery to 3500 units- almost neck and neck with a potential adversary where we supposedly brandish the term “numerical superiority”.
Heavy Artillery
Pakistan fields couple of dozen of 203mm gun, and POF still manufactures the ammunition as it also possess 203mm Sel Propelled Guns. Whereas Indian heavy guns are out of action. Although this is not big advantage as 155 mm guns can discharge the duties of heavier guns circa WWII.
155mm Towed Artillery
In the modern 155 mm towed howitzer head to head competition, Indian Army falls short of it’s objectives outgunning and outnumbering the opposition.

India posses a total of 380 155mm guns compared to 394 Guns of Pakistan. This is quite perplexing as India had originally purchased about 410 155 FH77/B guns from Sweden with tech transfer, and only 200 of them survive. This points towards cannibalization of existing guns due to lack of spares which is pure negligence. Today OFB is touting that they are producing Dhanush 155mm guns for the army, a reasonable Explanation is indeed needed for loosing half the fleet of FH77/B over the years, when we haven’t had such terrible luck with the m46. where almost the entire fleet remains intact.

Another reason to worry is the transfer of technology from turkey to Pakistan in building the MKEK Panter, Pakistan is churning out about 30–40 guns every year of this kind, and most likely end up with about 350 units in next couple of year.
Metmorphosis gun has had tube blowouts a couple of time, so most likely it will run for the rest of it’s life as low ring charges to avoid such situations, which will most likely bring down it’s effective range from 39 km to about 25–28. So with the given inventory India does not possess the range or the numerical advantage over it’s Pakistani counterparts.
(On a side note, M46 has been a god-send Russian system for us, much like the Mig 21. It has lived past it’s age and still keeps running like a champ.)
Medium Artillery
When it came to medium artillery, India traditionally maintained heavy superiority against Pakistan with its 130mm and 122 mm cannons. Given Indian Army has decided to pull back all of it’s 122mm guns, Indian medium artillery looks abysmally weak in the comparison to Pakistani medium artillery. India has about 720 M46 130mm medium guns left in service, whereas Pakistan’s 130mm M46 clones and 122 mm variants stand at a staggering 1243 units, almost 500 more medium guns than India.

And this ratio will continue to skew as we eat into long range M46’s and turn them into short range 155mm upgrade. Another aspect t note is Pakistani army’s Type 54 is a 21 Caliber (Length) gun, i.e it’s shorter and highly mobile gun. India on the other hand has chosen not to field any short range, highly mobile medium sized gun which can be used for border escalations.

Light Artillery
The only area where India posses an edge is in the light artillery with is indigenous 105mm work horses IFG and LFG units. India posses about 2400 field guns compared to 1643 guns comprising of 105 mm, 85mm and quarter pounders that Pakistan fields.


One of the major advantages of the Indian Field Guns is the barrel length of 37 Caliber which is longer than all of the comparable 105mm Pakistani light Artillery, which gives it a significant range advantage. Also the Light Field Gun is highly mobile and offsets the portability of the 85mm guns of the adversary. This is one area where Indian army truly outguns the opposition in both range, effectiveness and inventory.
Future State
Indian Army seems to have made up it’s mind on consolidating 155 mm in different length-calibers as it mainstay in towed artillery. A 1600 towed gun contract seems to point at the same. Given Pakistans 155mm and Medium gun combined strength will stand at around 1900 guns in next 3–5 years, if Indian army want’s to pitch a 2:1 ratio it will need a combined strength of atleast 4000 guns.
Gap Analysis
As the 155mm inventory strength today stands at a measly 380 units, Indian establishment will still have a shortfall of about 2000 guns if it wants to get to a 1:2 ratio vis-a-vis Pakistan. With consolidation large and medium artillery Indian Army will need substantial efforts in converting most of it’s m46 fleet with a proven barrel solution for the Beas/Metamorphosis Program which can add another 700 odd 155 mm modified guns to the inventory. the 1600 towed artillery system will need a revamp or even an introduction of another system along side the one chosen to get similar advantages as we have gained in local production of IFG and LFG guns. Given that India doesn’t struggle in the Light Artillery, upgrade programs on 105mm LGF, along with catapult and kalyani Garuda ultralight guns can turn the Light Artillery into more efficient unit.
Conclusion
Indian Artillery is in extremely poor state, and the red tape with acquisition of artillery system has put the lifes of our soldiers to risk. Given that half of the medium artillery is out of commission, and prime front line FH77/B fleet has been cannibalized to half it’s size, it is of utmost importance to fast track both the development and the acquisition Processes for the towed artillery. Success story of the 105mm light Artillery has already set the precedence for Indian Army to follow local production of artillery system to be replicated in the 155mm category.

Written by @Milspec
Why we are not giving more orders for K9? It believed to be one of the best Tracked artillery piece, mere 100 is not at all justified.
 

Saaho

Well-Known member
Dec 27, 2019
1,084
877
Canada
We are again making the same mistake with artillery. K9 has ordered only in 100 numbers, GOI is not giving further orders. The production facilities & technical know how gonna waste now.
Indeed. We have money for building statues of all sorts but not for arty.