Lmao I knew it. The Russians were trying to repeat another admiral gorshkov. Baited by using discount for oil and make all the profit on transportation or whatever loophole the Russians have to fleece money.
India-US Relations
- Thread starter Butter Chicken
- Start date
I simply don't understand what's being conveyed. They won the tender . Have you guys ever competed in a government tender ? There's absolutely no way you can game it unless you have governmental support .
OTOH. , We know what the state of the Indian media is ? Let's not even go there .
Hence if somebody is suggesting that some Russian firm filled up x rate for oil & y for transportation then inflating y to 2y , pls take it with a pinch of salt . All columns under freight , insurance , forwarding on board , etc would have to be individually filled in providing granular details .
In any case , the Russians would have an advantage if they offered a 10% discount on spot oil purchases & absorbed the difference in freight & insurance. Unfortunately instead of India dealing directly with Russia we're dealing with trading houses likely based in Europe mostly western Europe who've signed up agreements with Russia committing to lift up a certain quota within a stipulated time period for a heavy discount who're then free to sell it at whatever price they desire in the international market . This is likely what happened here .
We're not privy to what transpired . Let's wait for some time before the situation clears which it will in a few days.
Russians took India for a Gandola ride as always!
Oil traders selling pricey Russian crude chafe Indian refiners
Indian refiners that are among the few remaining eager buyers of Russian oil are baffled as to why they’re paying nearly full cost for cargoes that are being offered at record discounts in Europe.
Processors in the South Asian nation recently bought millions of barrels of Urals crude via open tenders, with some supplies going at a premium of $1 a barrel to London’s Dated Brent benchmark on a delivered basis, said traders. That compares with discounts of more than $30 a barrel for the same grade in Europe.
Officials at the Indian refineries said they don’t understand why they’re not receiving offers of discounts anywhere near what they’re seeing in Europe when they’ve been vocally supportive of continuing to import Russian crude. The lack of price cuts is especially galling for them as the invasion sent prices to more than $100 a barrel, adding inflationary concerns to the poorest major oil importer.
India is under pressure from allies including the U.S. to stop importing Russian energy to deprive Vladimir Putin of income to keep the economy afloat and fund the invasion of Ukraine. Russia and India have been long-time trade partners in everything from energy to food to weapons.
India’s state refiners usually procure spot crude via open tenders, in which prospective sellers submit their interest along with details on the oil type, volume, price and other offer terms.
The process is aimed at transparency and accountability, but it can be gamed by sellers who have a good sense of what price they need to beat, said refinery officials. Offers for Urals have been just slightly cheaper than other medium-sour grades typically sold to India such as Oman and Upper Zakum, instead of the deep discounts seen offered in Europe, they said.
The seller of many of the spot cargoes was Vitol Group, said the officials, who can’t be named because of company policy. Vitol declined to comment on specific trading activities.
Traders said that anyone who’s able to load Urals at prices near the discounted European offers would be making a profit between $10 and $20 a barrel for sales into India, after taking into account freight, insurance and other costs. Those are staggering profits in an industry where competition usually shaves margins to a few cents a barrel.
In late March, Suezmax tankers with a capacity of 1 million barrels were chartered at the equivalent of near $5 a barrel to transport crude from the Black Sea to India. The backwardated market structure meant the loss of another $4 a barrel during the month-long journey, among other costs. That still adds up to profits of $10 million to $20 million for the shipment, traders estimated.
Little Competition
Just a handful of companies are lifting Urals and selling it in Asia, said Indian refinery officials. This means there’s not a lot of competition, which is needed to drive down offers, they said.
More sellers are entering the market as traders get clarity on the various restrictions and sanctions on Russia and as workarounds emerge. This is beginning to increase the discounts offered to Indian buyers.
Tanker fixtures and port agent reports show that companies such as Vitol, Trafigura Group, Petraco Oil, Glencore PLC, Litasco SA and Gunvor Group continue to load crude from Russian ports, likely via pre-existing contracts entered before Ukraine’s invasion. The cargoes may sail directly to buyers, or undergo what’s known as ship-to-ship transfers onto larger vessels to save on freight costs or for other strategic reasons.
Indian refiners have historically been passive buyers, taking the best price offered to them via tenders, as opposed to setting up separate trading arms. That leaves them without trading units that can scour the global market for the most affordable physical oil grades, and even buy, sell and swap cargoes for profits, like Chinese state-owned refiners do.
Oil traders selling pricey Russian crude chafe Indian refiners
Processors in the South Asian nation recently bought millions of barrels of Urals crude via open tenders, with some supplies going at a premium of $1 a barrel to London’s Dated Brent benchmark on a delivered basis, said traders. That compares with discounts of more than $30 a barrel for the same...www.moneycontrol.com
More like it appears some of our companies are buying oil not from the Russians but from re-exporters, like the Vitol Group. And they have no need to sell at a discount. The same as what the US is doing.
This has nothing to do with India-Russia and everything to do with India not having any oil and gas trading firms. This paragraph clearly shows why Chinese are able to do it:
"Indian refiners have historically been passive buyers, taking the best price offered to them via tenders, as opposed to setting up separate trading arms. That leaves them without trading units that can scour the global market for the most affordable physical oil grades, and even buy, sell and swap cargoes for profits, like Chinese state-owned refiners do."
"Indian refiners have historically been passive buyers, taking the best price offered to them via tenders, as opposed to setting up separate trading arms. That leaves them without trading units that can scour the global market for the most affordable physical oil grades, and even buy, sell and swap cargoes for profits, like Chinese state-owned refiners do."
Shabaash!! This is the kind of language I've yearned to hear by Indian officials that too he's saying this on their own soil.
You know the direction the wind's blowing has changed when you have a persistent India baiter, especially in the recent past, admit as much
He was more of India supporter in Indo Pacific till Ukraine happened, at least on the surface, and then the ship turned upside down! Since last couple of days he is trying to make more of conciliatory tone. I would take Rory, Cold and Tanvi analysis over his at any given day anyway.
Jeff was on India Today yesterday with Shiv and he tried to justify the HR comment of Blinken by saying that DoS annually publishes such reports against multiple countries including us and India shouldn't pay much heed to it. Going by his logic if such mere digital reports justify US govt action of immaturely and disrespectfully making a false accusation against sovereign countries then why do their feathers ruffle when India, China, Iran or Russia make same HR comments against US. Hell if baseless digital reports can justify your stand, then Russia is right in this war and so is China when they are saying Taiwan, Tibet, Arunachal Pradesh is part of India. I really didn't like that guy's reasoning and ill-logical thinking. Don't know how much credible he is irl.
No, you misunderstood him as far as his reasoning goes. US autonomous agencies publish such reports. However what's truth is that these agencies are formed by US state department authorities but reports are considered irrelevant if not accepted by state department.
Second not accepting these reports don't make them baseless. Indeed we have have religious divison among us, we don't need foreign agencies to tell us that, so claiming such reports is baseless and false is incorrect. They are political motivated reports, everybody knows that including state department, that these reports are not accepted in entirety. Political motivated reports don't make the incidents lie or flimsy, they just make it difficult to justify on impartial grounds. Hope that distinction is well taken.
Again you made a wrong statement that India making the comments on HR violation in IS ruffle feathers there, on the contrary I see comments from US analysts welcoming such thoughts exchanges which are Frank and without any baggage. One doesn't need to be equal power to criticize another country on equal & logical grounds, that's why a democracy is so much different from a autocracy like Chinese CPC and Russian polity.
He is probably one of strongest proponents of QUAD, freedom of speech & navigation, overflights, an analyst with Heritage foundation, a person with decent amount spent in India, visiting places where even most of Indian Civilians require military/CIVIL permision to visit, one of few to receive personal commendation from Indian prime minister for promoting Indian democratic values and a good ambassador. Plenty out there, you just need to go through all that information with open eyes.
I will admit that by & large we Indians are by nature bit provincial. We don't want to look beyond the horizon...
Point taken in good light. But the guy literally tried to justify US stand by saying its not a new thing meaning India should have just moved ahead even though he said he is glad India countered too but come on that's just to appear neutral and it shows what he really wants to say. Otherwise why does he call US as defender of HR and "concern regarding HR" (as if the US govt concerns were well-founded regarding India and even in his tweet you shared he still calls it legit concerns of US govt towards India. His irony is clearly visible in his tweet) in the debate when we all know what US govt has done previously to civies of countries where it invaded. And I have read one of their reports where it said Indian journos getting arrested without any reason but I have yet to encounter such news.
I am not saying he is like other liberals in fact seeing his tweets he does seem one of the few Americans who actually understand Indian interests but when it came to live debate his stand kind of tilted towards US comment which is what I didn't like. And add to that he didn't even condemn the fact that in 2+2 we had no discussion regarding HR in India and yet Blinken like a small kid who wishes to lodge false complaint against a student who doesn't help in exams in front of media and EAM said what he said. Now that doesn't generate confidence in me of him. I will be honest and frank here I don't trust Americans especially there analysts and govt when it comes to India.
PS: One Indian ex ambassador in the debate did say that US has weaponized HR issues and they use it for pressure tactics when countries they want don't sing their tunes. It's true ig
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It's alright to disagree with him or even US for that matter, that's the basic beauty of democratic system.
Whenever the US brings up human rights issues, the economy of a country takes a hit. FDI and FII investments reduce, exports take a hit and even sovereign ratings get impacted. So this is used as political leverage by the US. That was the purpose here too. India hitting back in kind is impossible for obvious reasons. Our bringing up of US HR issues is just fart in the wind. But it's definitely a more refreshing stand than staying silent about it.
How do we beat this issue? Through economic growth. We need to reduce our reliance on FDI and FII, ie, foreign money, and make foreign debt irrevelant by generating a surplus. How do we get a surplus? The logic says we need to export more, yeah, it's necessary. But the real method is to decrease imports, and become self-reliant, especially essential products like energy.
Once our reliance on FDI, FII and foreign debt becomes insignificant, HR issues also become insignificant. Which is why countries like China, SA and Russia don't really care about it.
This is just gutter level politics the US uses to influence public opinion in the West.