How does Chinese flankers fare against our Su-30 MKI ?

[vstol Jockey]

Yes sir, I realised it after re reading your post. I am sorry for that.
Could you please elaborate more on EW point as I understand Chinese have much more EW platforms than us.

We carry EW pods designed by Israelis and they have the best experience in EW and ECM. Their equipment has been extensively tested and proven against all kinds of Russian equipment. Chinese have copies of Russian weapon systems including the EW. So I rate EW capabilities of India superior to that of PLA & PLAAF. Infect, every SAM system in the inventory of PLA & PLAAF has been blown to bits by Israelis in Syria. Israel has access to US and NATO weapons also and their systems are designed to suppress weapons of all origins.

 

[Lolwa]

We carry EW pods designed by Israelis and they have the best experience in EW and ECM. Their equipment has been extensively tested and proven against all kinds of Russian equipment. Chinese have copies of Russian weapon systems including the EW. So I rate EW capabilities of India superior to that of PLA & PLAAF. Infect, every SAM system in the inventory of PLA & PLAAF has been blown to bits by Israelis in Syria. Israel has access to US and NATO weapons also and their systems are designed to suppress weapons of all origins.

Well they are also working on J16D which is a dedicated ew platform similar to the EA 18 growler. And considering the amount of electronics that are made in China I have doubts that we have a superior EW aircrafts. Considering it had its first flight in 2015 they might have Inducted a few.

 

[AbRaj]

Why is it always assumed that range is always scalable with nez. It does not automatically mean that a 200 KM BVR will be as effective at 100 KM as a good missile with a range of 100 km and a NEZ of around 30-50 kms. More the range more the time for evasive manoeuvres. It just doesn't make sense to directly compare missiles in such a manner.

Longer range BVRAAMs force enemy jet to take evasive action instead of attacking enabling you to gain tactical advantage against enemy. Any from that position your chance of winning increases significantly.
Its what F16 did to Su30 on 27 Feb. it forced Sukhois to disengage and do evasive manoeuvre instead of attacking F16.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Well they are also working on J16D which is a dedicated ew platform similar to the EA 18 growler. And considering the amount of electronics that are made in China I have doubts that we have a superior EW aircrafts. Considering it had its first flight in 2015 they might have Inducted a few.

ECM is more about jamming techniques rather than the hardware alone.

 

[GuardianRED]

So - its simply down to tactics used on that day - that will dictate the outcome of the battle!! .

Q: What will be the rules of engagement??

 

[Aurora]

The debate in my post was regarding the use of BVRAAMs and not about the topic as such. Our Flankers are better than their stuff but not superior to SU-35s.

Sir you had told us last year that we have bought latest Russian BVRs. So we should have edge in BVR too???

 

[randomradio]

Well they are also working on J16D which is a dedicated ew platform similar to the EA 18 growler. And considering the amount of electronics that are made in China I have doubts that we have a superior EW aircrafts. Considering it had its first flight in 2015 they might have Inducted a few.

EW is more about the software than the hardware.

 

[Saaho]

I always find it surprising that people are taking untested and unknowns as best in class. We do not know about specs of AESA radar on J-16 but we are taking them to be infinitely better than older but proven radars. Same with PL-15. No one knows how well it performs. And given Chinese record, it is likely to underperform from what it says on the label.

Remember, the same Chinese aerospace industry claimed to have perfected jet engine tech but their J-20 is lagging because of its broken engine.

Lets be honest, the real answer to all these questions : Which Chinese owned fighter is better or worse than us is something like :

Su27s with N001V and N001VE radars inferior to Su30MKI with bars PESA radar.
J11s with Chinese MSA inferior to Su30MKI with bars PESA radar.
Su35s superior to Su30MKI in almost all aspects.
J15 Unknown
J16 Unknown

PL-12 itself : cheap knock off copy of R77 from 90s. Its Russian seeker on a chinese motor. Worse than R77s we purchased recently.
PL-15 itself : Unknown. Claimed to be Chinese motor with AESA seeker but unproven. Overhyped with over 900000 KM of claimed range.
PL-10 : Unknown

 

[Saaho]

Not a big advantage. Only the Su30MKK and variants are actually Multirole with any meaningful air to ground capability. So J11s will be flying air superiority roles only. And for that they have enough payload capacity.

Our Eastern Command was to have its dedicated Tanker squadron and AWACS squadron by 2015-16. That's a big hole for us.

The real advantage India has over China is number of airbases at its disposal to deploy its airforce in western theatre.

China will be basically reusing its civilian airport in Xinjiang and Nagari to deploy its airforce. If those are taken out by an air raid and/or ballisitic missiles they have no air support in the region.

 

[randomradio]

I always find it surprising that people are taking untested and unknowns as best in class. We do not know about specs of AESA radar on J-16 but we are taking them to be infinitely better than older but proven radars. Same with PL-15. No one knows how well it performs. And given Chinese record, it is likely to underperform from what it says on the label.

Remember, the same Chinese aerospace industry claimed to have perfected jet engine tech but their J-20 is lagging because of its broken engine.

Lets be honest, the real answer to all these questions : Which Chinese owned fighter is better or worse than us is something like :

Su27s with N001V and N001VE radars inferior to Su30MKI with bars PESA radar.
J11s with Chinese MSA inferior to Su30MKI with bars PESA radar.
Su35s superior to Su30MKI in almost all aspects.
J15 Unknown
J16 Unknown

PL-12 itself : cheap knock off copy of R77 from 90s. Its Russian seeker on a chinese motor. Worse than R77s we purchased recently.
PL-15 itself : Unknown. Claimed to be Chinese motor with AESA seeker but unproven. Overhyped with over 900000 KM of claimed range.
PL-10 : Unknown

No one is a fool to invest in something that doesn't work. The Chinese are procuring AESA Flankers in extremely large numbers. Should have already crossed 150 jets. And are now making AESA radars available for export as well. They are at least half a decade ahead compared to India when it comes to military electronics.

Now they are modernising the J-11B also with an AESA radar.

It's obvious that if they are replacing older equipment with AESA, then they are operationalising systems that work.

Their Flankers are also getting new high thrust engines with superior life and capabilities than what we have on the AL-31FP. Their LRIP J-20s also use the far superior Salyut AL-31FM2, which is Salyut's competitor to the 117S, and delivers 2 tons more thrust than the AL-31FP. Their newer WS-10G has also achieved Russian levels in engine tech.

They have also developed and demonstrated their own TVC in an airshow recently.

And this year, they introduced the WS-10 into operational J-10Cs, which proves that the engine has become reliable enough to be used on a single-engine aircraft.

China's J-10C fighter jet uses homemade engine: report - China Military

A newly built J-10C fighter jet is reportedly equipped with a domestically developed WS-10 Taihang engine and ready to join military service, a sign that the homemade engine has become technically mature and reliable, experts said.

english.chinamil.com.cn

 

[Nikhil]

No one is a fool to invest in something that doesn't work. The Chinese are procuring AESA Flankers in extremely large numbers. Should have already crossed 150 jets. And are now making AESA radars available for export as well. They are at least half a decade ahead compared to India when it comes to military electronics.

Now they are modernising the J-11B also with an AESA radar.

It's obvious that if they are replacing older equipment with AESA, then they are operationalising systems that work.

Their Flankers are also getting new high thrust engines with superior life and capabilities than what we have on the AL-31FP. Their LRIP J-20s also use the far superior Salyut AL-31FM2, which is Salyut's competitor to the 117S, and delivers 2 tons more thrust than the AL-31FP. Their newer WS-10G has also achieved Russian levels in engine tech.

They have also developed and demonstrated their own TVC in an airshow recently.

And this year, they introduced the WS-10 into operational J-10Cs, which proves that the engine has become reliable enough to be used on a single-engine aircraft.

China's J-10C fighter jet uses homemade engine: report - China Military

A newly built J-10C fighter jet is reportedly equipped with a domestically developed WS-10 Taihang engine and ready to join military service, a sign that the homemade engine has become technically mature and reliable, experts said.

english.chinamil.com.cn

I do not think Chinese are ahead of us as you like to put it , maybe in optronics system but not in all other electronic sectors. Do not confuse strategic sector with commercial one where all Chinese core technology is foreign.
Just look at the AESA radar being offered for JF 17.
Kl j7a AESA is inferior to Uttam AESA on all specifications, goes on to show we have catched up and are probably even ahead.

 

[Nikhil]

I always find it surprising that people are taking untested and unknowns as best in class. We do not know about specs of AESA radar on J-16 but we are taking them to be infinitely better than older but proven radars. Same with PL-15. No one knows how well it performs. And given Chinese record, it is likely to underperform from what it says on the label.

Remember, the same Chinese aerospace industry claimed to have perfected jet engine tech but their J-20 is lagging because of its broken engine.

Lets be honest, the real answer to all these questions : Which Chinese owned fighter is better or worse than us is something like :

Su27s with N001V and N001VE radars inferior to Su30MKI with bars PESA radar.
J11s with Chinese MSA inferior to Su30MKI with bars PESA radar.
Su35s superior to Su30MKI in almost all aspects.
J15 Unknown
J16 Unknown

PL-12 itself : cheap knock off copy of R77 from 90s. Its Russian seeker on a chinese motor. Worse than R77s we purchased recently.
PL-15 itself : Unknown. Claimed to be Chinese motor with AESA seeker but unproven. Overhyped with over 900000 KM of claimed range.
PL-10 : Unknown

Yes to much over hyping Chinese stonk while underestimating ourselves. One just need to look at AESA on offer abroad to gauge Chinese capabilities. KL j7a on offer for bundar by its specifications turn out to be inferior to our own uttam AESA.... So what with this Chinese imaginary superior capability everyone keep harping about ?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Sir you had told us last year that we have bought latest Russian BVRs. So we should have edge in BVR too???

yes, but we do not not how advanced the Chinese copies are.

 

[Saaho]

No one is a fool to invest in something that doesn't work.

You have no idea how government spending works, do you?

Plus there is a difference between "works" and "beats competition". Look at India and our own R&D in weapons. We have many weapons that work but may not excel competition. A certain rifle comes to mind.

 

[Saaho]

The Chinese are procuring AESA Flankers in extremely large numbers.

All we know that flanker produced by them has radar of "unknown specification", speculation is it is AESA. We don't know what its specs are. We don't know how well it competes against Russian PESA etc. We don't know anything about it. Why is it then so easy to say, "It will certainly be better than Russian PESA" or "It will be significantly better than Russian PESA". Heck we don't even know how many AESA they have produced.

My basic question is where does this extreme confidence comes from that what they have is much much much better than BARS radar on Su30MKI.

We don't allow Indian radars such liberty but somehow if it comes to China. Ohhhhhh It has this !!!!! Ohhhhh it has that!!!!! Where no one has EVER verified this and that. I mean, look at tejas, there has been so much questioning around it, so many evaluations etc. Our airforce practically forced it to change its specifications in very public rejections. We have no such information on Chinese platforms.

Why is absence of deatials is automatically taken as capability in case of China.

 

[randomradio]

You have no idea how government spending works, do you?

Plus there is a difference between "works" and "beats competition". Look at India and our own R&D in weapons. We have many weapons that work but may not excel competition. A certain rifle comes to mind.

They don't need to beat competition, they only need to stay ahead of the curve. Our PESA may be more advanced than their PESA, but they skipped PESA and went for AESA instead.

The Soviets did that. When the US and Europe had better mechanical scanned radars, the Soviets brought in PESA to offset the West's advantage.

Maybe when we make an AESA radar and introduce it on our aircraft in enough numbers, that's as much as 2030 for the MWF, the Chinese would simply introduce something more advanced by then to stay ahead of the curve, even if we assume we have the better AESA tech using the same type of hardware.

 

[Saaho]

They don't need to beat competition, they only need to stay ahead of the curve.

And how do you know that they are doing that? How do you know that their AESA is outperforming Su30 MKI PESA radar?

 

[Saaho]

Our PESA may be more advanced than their PESA, but they skipped PESA and went for AESA instead.

Thats is my basic question. How do you know that their entire package is sufficiently better than what we have.

For instance, in case of Tejas we came to know about how its radome material was messing up with transmission of radar waves. It was then replaced with a radome from UK AFAIK. Do you have such details of Chinese planes?

For all I know that they have produced really good radar but messed up their radome.

Where does this extreme confidence comes from that their entire really really complex systems are doing sufficiently better than say Russian systems or say combination of russian, isariali systems like we have on Su30 MKI.

Chinese systems are a massive Unknown. To assume that unknown is better or significantly better than what we have is just that... an uninformed assumption.

 

[Saaho]

They have also developed and demonstrated their own TVC in an airshow recently.

And? MKI has been doing it since what? 2000-ish? Eurojet had a demonstrator engine with TVC but they went against it. What does it prove?

And this year, they introduced the WS-10 into operational J-10Cs, which proves that the engine has become reliable enough to be used on a single-engine aircraft.

Introducing and performing equally to AL-31F are two different things. Do we know how many J10Cs with Chinese gas-turbine have been produced? Do we have an authoritative number? And do we know for sure that it sports Chinese engine only? Do we know that their engine is actually home made or just rebranded AL-31F or an engine with core from a Russian engine?

Remember, we ask all these questions and have answer for regarding all other countries and CERTAINLY India. Remember, Indian policy makers rejected very publically such an offer to produce Kaveri with a french core. We know NOTHING in such detail for Chinese engines.

 

[randomradio]

I do not think Chinese are ahead of us as you like to put it , maybe in optronics system but not in all other electronic sectors. Do not confuse strategic sector with commercial one where all Chinese core technology is foreign.

They are obviously ahead. They have a J-10, three Flanker versions (J-16, J-11D, J-11B, in that order) and 1 next gen aircraft carrying their own indigenous AESA radars. They have even made 2 export grade radars. Otoh, we have zero. Barely 1 that's yet to complete testing. We will get our own in an operational fighter jet only after 2025, as long as ADA sticks to their MWF plans properly. Our only competing radars may be better (Jaguar, Mk1A and Rafale), but they are obviously not Indian.

Missile as well, they have already introduced the PL-15 with an AESA seeker and dual thrust motors as of 2016, whereas with the Astra Mk1 we are still playing with something that's a PL-12 equivalent, which they introduced 15 years ago.

They got ahead by throwing a lot of money at this, but they are most definitely ahead.

No, I'm not referring to civilian tech.

Just look at the AESA radar being offered for JF 17.
Kl j7a AESA is inferior to Uttam AESA on all specifications, goes on to show we have catched up and are probably even ahead.

Export grade crap. The Soviets used to be even worse. Even the Americans attempted to make export grade crap, but better sense prevailed and the rest of NATO stopped that from happening. Right now, our P-8Is are downgraded to export level as well.

The problem is, yeah, their KLJ-7A is not as good as Western and even Uttam tech, but they made it for a market that cannot afford anything better, along with size and weight constraints. Whatever the case, you can say for sure that their operational radars are most definitely superior to the KLJ-7A at the very least, and that's good enough. If we believe their advertised figures to be correct, then the KLJ-7A is similar to the Bars Mk1 and the APG-80 that's on UAE's F-16 Block 60. That's pretty impressive for a radar that's compromised due to the small nose volume of the JF-17 and its lower power availability.