Let me reiterate.
If you have time to argue over the internet on this topic, then please make time to watch these videos by the GTRE director from last year on the status of Indian aero engine development.
Now adding the latest from last week.
Too many snake oil salesmen and hopium merchants roaming around. Get to your own conclusions.
If you have time to argue over the internet on this topic, then please make time to watch these videos by the GTRE director from last year on the status of Indian aero engine development.
Now adding the latest from last week.
Too many snake oil salesmen and hopium merchants roaming around. Get to your own conclusions.
both of these guys are bafoons, begging for foreign help.
they are not accepting that they are incompetent and not resigning.
such a shamless babus are.
Why was drop in overall pressure ratio??Meanwhile, GTRE has made progress on the Kaveri engine, India’s indigenous turbofan for fighter aircraft. The engine’s bypass ratio has been increased to 0.20—a key metric that measures the proportion of air bypassing the engine core.
India Nears Approval For Safran-GTRE Fighter Jet Engine Collaboration, Kaveri Engine Upgrade
India is set to approve a Safran-GTRE joint project to develop a 120-140 KN engine for AMCA fighters, while the Kaveri engine sees a bypass ratio upgrade, boosting indigenous fighter jet capabilities.news.abplive.com
Limitationa in Materials, design, infra, funds etc.
Limitations in Compressor design, Compressor rpm, stages, lighter materials like blisk, equipment like bigger forging press etc.
Most yeah, but other factors noted above were also responsible.
Bypass ratio increased to 0.2, overall pressure ration decreased to 20.5
Due to decrease in pressure ratio of low pressure compressor or decrease in pressure ratio of high pressure compressor??
Or this over all pressure ratio is fixed as per need of KDE??
As is the audacity of some others who expect $300 million and no FTB will make ready a combat ready engine. Perhaps they should try to build an F1 racing car with 1 lakh rupees or something.
The audacity of this keyboard warrior.
No one expects that since the project was delinked 15 years ago.
Blaming scientists today is just crazy.
I am baffled, On onside GTRE scientists have told the defence minister that the KDE with modifications and after burner is successful and at the same time they want collaboration with Saran for 90 KN engine which is replacement to GE 404. These scientists want to play safe and does not want to take risk. This typical Indian babu mentality. My humble opinion is irrespective of collaboration they should take risk and go a head with development and Government should fund and support.
There is no collaboration planned with Safran for 90kn engine. There is no program active for LCA engine replacement. Foreign collaboration is for the fifth-generation engine for AMCA.
Its not the scientist want France help but govt wants to be sure if they commit they will achieve. Take example of balastic missile we dont ask for other country because we have testing facilities and all but ask same question do we have testing facility for engine of any kind the answer is no . question is are we going to make the yes as we have as the RFP was issued . All the problem is people want to comment without getting facts correct. for just 100 hours of flying certification we are waiting for 3 years and whose fault is it
Indian scientist need foreign help even for KDE let's apart any Afterburner because they don't have testing infrastructure and not have any experience of operating these test facilities. At the time of Rafael deal for 36 units they consulted about 1.5 bn Safran proposal to develop Kaveri into meaning full product and GTRE confident at that time to do it self if infrastructure provided. Govt asked them to first develop KDE and after that any further iteration of Kaveri. But the worst part of it was to use infra of friendly nations like RUSSIA. Govt did not realise the glaring strategic mistake of lack of infra at that time. Whole nation is paying price of that mistake now. It is not the lack of talent or incompetence of our scientists but pure strategic miscalculation and short sightedness.
I didn't get any alert
could be a bug
Anyways, AFAIK, materials, testing facilities & testbed aircraft, funding, etc, almost everything has limited us.
Sending engine to Russia & waiting for long time for schedule. IDK if we tried to modify IL-76 into a testbed A/c, if yes then if Russia cooperated or not.
Increasing OPR increases temperature & pressure but materials limited us.
Exhaust temperature has limit due to material, but if intake temp is also high in hot geography then something has to be done not to exceed section limits, like film cooling, adjust BPR, body cooling, etc.
If humidity is high then water droplets eat space & mass needed by air, reducing thrust or Force = M.a
BPR can be increased to short limit only for supersonic flight bcoz it is difficult to accelerate very large bypass air mass by mixing it with core air mass by Bernoulli's effect, but Kaveri has lower BPR than popular engines IDK why.
Ultimately, thrust = F = M.a = M.(V2-V1)/t
So basically the air mass flow needs to be sufficiently high to be squeezed through inlet.
The exhaust velocity should be as high as possible in as less fuel as possible.
So OPR & TET need to be as high as possible, supported by materials withstanding high T&P.
For combustion engines the fuel needs to have calorific value as high as possible, then fuel-air mix ratio (consumption) would be lesser.
The design of stator & rotor vanes of compressors & turbines need to be good to reduce loss of KE.
That's all my low IQ brain can think.
Anything brand new 4gen including engines has no future. So if not 6gen VCE then we need at least 5gen engine.
I've opened a thread to discuss engine tech in general.
Jet Engine Technology
www.strategicfront.org
I was just wondering since a higher bypass ratio like other 4th and 5th gen engines would have helped increase it range and helped keep the engine cooler, this is starting to seem like a critical design flaw in kaveri, the pressure ratio should also be higher to get better thrust, high altitude performance and range. So we need a new redesigned Kaveri 2.0 with better bypass ratio in the range of 0.3-0.6, Pressure ratio between 23-30 and Higher inlet temperature if we want a 4th gen engine which can compete with same generation engines from France, Russia, Uk or America.I didn't get any alert
View attachment 50722
Anyways, AFAIK, materials, testing facilities & testbed aircraft, funding, etc, almost everything has limited us.
Sending engine to Russia & waiting for long time for schedule. IDK if we tried to modify IL-76 into a testbed A/c, if yes then if Russia cooperated or not.
Increasing OPR increases temperature & pressure but materials limited us.
Exhaust temperature has limit due to material, but if intake temp is also high in hot geography then something has to be done not to exceed section limits, like film cooling, adjust BPR, body cooling, etc.
If humidity is high then water droplets eat space & mass needed by air, reducing thrust or Force = M.a
BPR can be increased to short limit only for supersonic flight bcoz it is difficult to accelerate very large bypass air mass by mixing it with core air mass by Bernoulli's effect, but Kaveri has lower BPR than popular engines IDK why.
Ultimately, thrust = F = M.a = M.(V2-V1)/t
So basically the air mass flow needs to be sufficiently high to be squeezed through inlet.
The exhaust velocity should be as high as possible in as less fuel as possible.
So OPR & TET need to be as high as possible, supported by materials withstanding high T&P.
For combustion engines the fuel needs to have calorific value as high as possible, then fuel-air mix ratio (consumption) would be lesser.
The design of stator & rotor vanes of compressors & turbines need to be good to reduce loss of KE.
That's all my low IQ brain can think.
Anything brand new 4gen including engines has no future. So if not 6gen VCE then we need at least 5gen engine.
I've opened a thread to discuss engine tech in general.
Jet Engine Technology
Since we can already make better alloys using advanced materials science, have TBC, Blisk and SIngle Crystal Blades and know why and how of engines, with the proper testing infrastructure and funds, nothing should stop us from making a good 4th generation engine for Tejas Mk2 and then go towards a 5th gen engine. If we invest a quarter of what we are investing in the rafale or Indo-French Engine, we can push the industry much further without any external parties involvement. I hope our government makes a Kaveri 2.0 for Tejas with all the current technology we currently have and invest in Proper Testing and Certifying Infrastructure.
Can someone also explain how we can tag people in this?
For common people like us it does appear that higher BPR & definitely a higher OPR are needed. For new engines the combination of these parameters are key to efficiency & hence kept secret for decades.
Looking at some present global fighter engines as per internet data (could vary on different sites)-
- BPR of F414 is lowest 0.25 & F110-GE-100/400 has highest 0.87
- OPR of Mirage-2000's M53-P3 is 9.8, F-110-GE-132 is 33.3
Whether it is low or high BPR, in a typical 4gen engine-
- the bypass air mass (most if not all) converge & mix with core air after turbine section,
- then comes afterbuners,
- then comes tail pipe which straightens the air flow like a gun barrel,
- then the nozzle which open/close.
So from nozzle PoV the BPR doesn't matter, but like i said what matters is that it is difficult to accelerate higher bypass air mass at slower speed to higher speed of core air mass.
Hence in a VCE the middle channel would be used for both bypass in subsonic economy mode & in core for supersonic power mode.
So it is difficult to conclude the combination of BPR & OPR, there's no ISO standard yet & we'll always see different combos within same gen of engines & jets.
Range depends on altitude, airframe design, # of engines & then right throttle setting, apparently at subsonic speed.
For regular fighters with 4gen turbofans, it seems like 35-40 K ft. is best balance b/w drag & sufficient air.
If we put same engine on different airframe designs then their range with same fuel type & quantity will be different, bcoz drag & lift also play role in range.
War will not wait for R&D & we're lagging in decades. Time is
not
.RR & Safran have skipped 5gen jets means they're confident with their 6gen R&D of engines & jets. They'll upgrade their 4gen engines for last series of their 4gen jet MLUs.
For Tejas-2 MWF & AMCA-1 it seems F414 80% ToT is tried to be negotiated. If USA does more arm twisting then perhaps better negotiate for M88 TREX or upgraded EJ200.
Although some parts are interdependent but not all. So all parts are not made 1 by 1 but by different teams, manufacturers. 5gen adds certain components which can benefit from present R&D & for other components independent R&D has to start in parallel.
Hence bcoz it takes 10+yrs to R&D & big India will always need at least 3 types of manned jets & many types of UAVs/UCAVs for IN & IAF, so IMO, in dusk of 5gen & dawn of 6gen, instead of re-inventing a new 4gen engine, the new domestic or JV TD/prototype engines should be 1x 5gen & 1x 6gen VCE which could be scaled up/down for medium to large manned jets & UAVs/UCAVs.
Oh they blame and laugh at our scientists who spent years of their lives at pitiful pay just in the hopes that one day their country which the world calls "poor" and "third world" and "shithole" can stand toe to toe with the giants. But yes it is the fault of these scientists such as that polio inflicted engineer who worked on Agni that they work on these projects to protect the filthy gutter worms who laugh at them and their work.
Now go ahead and remove this too idgaf.
There is an article in alphadeence.in on Aero engine testing facilities. The Gas Turbine Research Establishment has released a Request for Information (RFI) to set up a National Aero Engine Test Complex (NAETC).
It will include:
A High Altitude Engine Test Facility to simulate real flight conditions at extreme altitudes
It will include:
A High Altitude Engine Test Facility to simulate real flight conditions at extreme altitudes
- A Fan and Compressor Test Facility for evaluating compression stages
- A Combustor Test Facility to assess combustion performance and durability
- A Turbine Test Facility for testing turbine components under realistic stress conditions
- An Afterburner Test Facility to validate thrust augmentation system
- GTRE is inviting interest from both Indian and international players. This includes:
- Original Equipment Manufacturers
- Test facility developers and integrators
- Industrial partners
- Joint ventures and consortiums
- This information is exiting since India need not depend on Russia for testing of Aero engines. The project is to be completed in one year. What will be left over will be flight test bed.
- Kaveri derivative will also get benefited.
Seems like our aero-engine ecosystem is moving forward through a good mix of indigenous programs, licenced production and strategic partnership.
We might have 4 crore programs as of now, the kaveri which serves as our foundation, GE414 to master 4th gen tech, Izd 177s to acquire quasi 5th gen capabilities, Indo-French engine to develop in-house capability to design, test and certify 5th gen jets.
The next 20 years will certainly be interesting if we play our cards right.
We might have 4 crore programs as of now, the kaveri which serves as our foundation, GE414 to master 4th gen tech, Izd 177s to acquire quasi 5th gen capabilities, Indo-French engine to develop in-house capability to design, test and certify 5th gen jets.
The next 20 years will certainly be interesting if we play our cards right.
