Hydra

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We all know how good our planning is, don't we? We have to choose reliable suppliers unfortunately. Our bureaucracy is terrible at planning anything.


Fortunately, vis-a-vis our enemies, its only Pakistan that we have to worry about.
The day Pakistan has more money than India (and not the per capita bullshit), that day you can kiss India goodbye. Unlike us, they can really wage war.
The only thing stopping them is because they don't have money.


I doubt any Indian engine is one horizon for atleast 10 year if not more. AMCA also delinks engine for this very reason. Engine tech is hard to master. Ask Chinese, they are still struggling with it.
I doubt India is going to develop an in-house engine even with foreign aid in short time.

We have to rely on suppliers for atleast 10-20 years. So we need reliable suppliers.
Yeas, we are very bad planners. But I don't think that we grounded any aircraft in peace time due to lack of engines. More over you cannot fight a war even if they supplied engine spares on time too,the process of engine repair is time consuming I guess.

You still understand the context, french is also not reliable as you think. Wheather pakistan will become economically stronger than India or not is not what I bothered right now. Also @randomradio has pointed out how french backed off from Russia-french deal for supplying Mistral class ship to Russian navy due to US pressure.

Yeas RR-India engine will not come tomorrow,it will take time. It's about joint development. The RR offer on joint development is more attractive , that's why India is heading with that.

We right now using GE engine, I am damn sure that UK is more reliable than USA.

@A Person, no that incident has happened in 2002 , french used to supply pakistan weapons even after that. If my memory is correct they even started talk with PA for additional Mistral missile. All stopped with mmrca tendering process. If you still not convinced, go and see what happened during Falklands war.
 

Saaho

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Yeas, we are very bad planners. But I don't think that we grounded any aircraft in peace time due to lack of engines.
Well, its not peace time I am worried. Its war time that concerns me the most. My doubts are simple. Even after we develop our own engine --with some help from our partners -- I am damn sure there will be some parts coming from outside. Thats the nature of building things today. Even China has dependency and they blood make everything. I will avoid if these parts come from a country which has conflicting interests with us.

More over you cannot fight a war even if they supplied engine spares on time too,the process of engine repair is time consuming I guess.
The difference between getting routed completely by Pakistan because US/UK won't ship us ECUs and losing few villages on border is not lost on me. I believe in case of war we will come to know that 90% of our fleet is non operational because our esteemed bureaucracy forgot to replenish critical parts needed for maintenance. Then we will drop our pants and will immediately procure those parts in emergency. Given it is US/UK, they will like to see India lose Amritsar, Ambala and all the way till the border of delhi before they send the parts. It helps them to put India in its place.

France is likely to sell India parts if we pay them well.

You still understand the context, french is also not reliable as you think.
No one can be 100% reliable, it comes down to this : What will influence french decision. US influence and EU influence is not high on that list. Our ability to spend money is much higher. I will like our partnerships to be based on our ability to pay and not on someone else geopolitical interests. France does not have a clashing geopolitical interest with us. US does and so does EU and UK.

The board game of international politics is about clashing and aligning interests, AFAIK.

Yeas RR-India engine will not come tomorrow,it will take time. It's about joint development. The RR offer on joint development is more attractive , that's why India is heading with that.

We right now using GE engine, I am damn sure that UK is more reliable than USA.
Anyone is more reliable than USA --simply because no one has messy geopolitical interests as wide as USA-- just that who has more alignment with USA. UK has most alignment with USA. If they need money after split from EU, there can be only two sources. USA and China -- perhaps to a lesser degree Japan. That puts us at disadvantage to begin with.

Also @randomradio has pointed out how french backed off from Russia-french deal for supplying Mistral class ship to Russian navy due to US pressure.
It was not as much as US pressure as it was the intended purpose of Mistral class amphibious ship. After capture of Crimea it was quite evident that Russia intends to use military power to shape its influence. Guess where else they wanted to apply the same military policy? Mediterranean region. The region which is core to French geopolitical interests. Incidentally, this region is also very amenable to amphibious warfare. France dropped that sale and sold the ships to Egypt even taking a bit of loss.

As I said, the board game of international politics is about clashing and aligning interests.
 
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Saaho

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@A Person, no that incident has happened in 2002 , french used to supply pakistan weapons even after that. If my memory is correct they even started talk with PA for additional Mistral missile. All stopped with mmrca tendering process. If you still not convinced, go and see what happened during Falklands war.
Anyone will sell stuff. Italians are ready to sell their AESA radar to Pakistan for JF-17 block 3, should Pakistan have money. Its business.
 

Hydra

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Anyone will sell stuff. Italians are ready to sell their AESA radar to Pakistan for JF-17 block 3, should Pakistan have money. Its business.
See, i am not blaming french for selling weapons to pak or blaming french for not selling weapons to Pakistan . What i am conveying is French also unreliable, their action of stop selling weapons to pak by seeing a more lucrative contract from india itself is a testimony for that. Also their behavior with Russians in recent past and the way they act in Falkland says politics do influence french supply.

So both french & UK are in same boat when comes to reliability issue, then whats wrong in going with UK when they are offering good business deal than french in engine development?
 

Hydra

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Well, its not peace time I am worried. Its war time that concerns me the most. My doubts are simple. Even after we develop our own engine --with some help from our partners -- I am damn sure there will be some parts coming from outside. Thats the nature of building things today. Even China has dependency and they blood make everything. I will avoid if these parts come from a country which has conflicting interests with us.


The difference between getting routed completely by Pakistan because US/UK won't ship us ECUs and losing few villages on border is not lost on me. I believe in case of war we will come to know that 90% of our fleet is non operational because our esteemed bureaucracy forgot to replenish critical parts needed for maintenance. Then we will drop our pants and will immediately procure those parts in emergency. Given it is US/UK, they will like to see India lose Amritsar, Ambala and all the way till the border of delhi before they send the parts. It helps them to put India in its place.

France is likely to sell India parts if we pay them well.


No one can be 100% reliable, it comes down to this : What will influence french decision. US influence and EU influence is not high on that list. Our ability to spend money is much higher. I will like our partnerships to be based on our ability to pay and not on someone else geopolitical interests. France does not have a clashing geopolitical interest with us. US does and so does EU and UK.

The board game of international politics is about clashing and aligning interests, AFAIK.


Anyone is more reliable than USA --simply because no one has messy geopolitical interests as wide as USA-- just that who has more alignment with USA. UK has most alignment with USA. If they need money after split from EU, there can be only two sources. USA and China -- perhaps to a lesser degree Japan. That puts us at disadvantage to begin with.


It was not as much as US pressure as it was the intended purpose of Mistral class amphibious ship. After capture of Crimea it was quite evident that Russia intends to use military power to shape its influence. Guess where else they wanted to apply the same military policy? Mediterranean region. The region which is core to French geopolitical interests. Incidentally, this region is also very amenable to amphibious warfare. France dropped that sale and sold the ships to Egypt even taking a bit of loss.

As I said, the board game of international politics is about clashing and aligning interests.
Where is french offer of co developing engine? What they have offered if M88 jet engine cire without any ToT i guess.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Where is french offer of co developing engine? What they have offered if M88 jet engine cire without any ToT i guess.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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  • Co-development proposal of aero-engines using latest technologies for LCA, AMCA programs ==> Kaveri and infra proposal
  • Safran, supported by French Authorities, is the sole company in the world to propose a complete transfer of know how and know why allowing India:
    • To be fully autonomus in the future
    • To develop and produce engine totally "made in India" and customized to aircraft needs
  • India is the sole country in the world to whom such a transfer has been proposed
The slide is marked: Confidential / Octobre 2019.
 

Gautam

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Reposting the pics in case these are removed from twitter :
EtZWwjyWQAIjctq.jpg

EtZWyKgWQAMefvg.jpg

EtZ33fMXIAAwqu7.jpg

The Kaveri derivative seems somewhat smaller in length than the dry Kaveri shown a few years ago. Of course this engine is also without afterburners.

The peak power output has been downrated from 52.5 KN to 46 KN. The engine also lighter by 56 kg (1180 kg vs. the original Kaveri at 1236 kg)
EtZW1HmXMAIOnCm.jpg


The dry thrust to weight ratio has marginally decreased. The Specific fuel consumption has marginally increased. The engine control has been automated. Inlet distortion tolerance has been built in. Obviously this engine is intended for the Ghatak/AURA UCAV.

Since the engine had been developed already, most of the inputs from the French company would be in testing & certification. That's a good thing given GTRE's inexperience in such matters. 2024 isn't a bad time as by then initial prototypes of the Ghatak should be ready. Currently we have plenty of ground test infra for a 42 KN engine.

I wonder where the flight tests will happen. We don't have a flight test platform. Russia again ?
 

_Anonymous_

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Reposting the pics in case these are removed from twitter :
View attachment 20102
View attachment 20101
View attachment 20104
The Kaveri derivative seems somewhat smaller in length than the dry Kaveri shown a few years ago. Of course this engine is also without afterburners.

The peak power output has been downrated from 52.5 KN to 46 KN. The engine also lighter by 56 kg (1180 kg vs. the original Kaveri at 1236 kg)
View attachment 20103

The dry thrust to weight ratio has marginally decreased. The Specific fuel consumption has marginally increased. The engine control has been automated. Inlet distortion tolerance has been built in. Obviously this engine is intended for the Ghatak/AURA UCAV.

Since the engine had been developed already, most of the inputs from the French company would be in testing & certification. That's a good thing given GTRE's inexperience in such matters. 2024 isn't a bad time as by then initial prototypes of the Ghatak should be ready. Currently we have plenty of ground test infra for a 42 KN engine.

I wonder where the flight tests will happen. We don't have a flight test platform. Russia again ?
No news about the core too , if you've noticed.


As far as the test bed goes , plenty of time to modify one if need be or procure one now that multiple tests would be needed for validation.
 

Gautam

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No news about the core too , if you've noticed.
Given the difficulties & expenses of making an turbine core they will probably just use the Kaveri's core. I think it is pretty well established that the core isn't ideal. But 42 KNs isn't a lot of load to really put it to test. It should work fine.

Right now GTRE needs a success story. MoD won't/can't fund them forever without anything to show for. This might not be ideal but it is likely to succeed.
As far as the test bed goes , plenty of time to modify one if need be or procure one now that multiple tests would be needed for validation.
We could try modifying any old passenger aircraft. Given our inexperience this does not fill me will hope. As far as procurement goes, who is selling those platforms ? France ? Russia ? Did they make any offers ?
 
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_Anonymous_

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Given the difficulties & expenses of making an turbine core they will probably just use the Kaveri's core. I think it is pretty well established that the core isn't ideal. But 42 KNs isn't a lot of load to really put it to test. It should work fine.
I was thinking more in terms of an M-88 core given SAFRAN's involvement.

Right now GTRE needs a success story. MoD won't/can't fund them forever without anything to show for. This might not be ideal but it is likely to succeed.

We could try modifying any old passenger aircraft. Given our inexperience this does not fill me will hope. As far as procurement goes, who is selling those platforms ? France ? Russia ? Did they make any offers ?
Long ago , a discussion on BRF suggested that there were a few companies in Europe & the US which specialised in these kind of modifications. IIRC , they also leased out such test beds. Typically those platforms are aircrafts already in use . One of the MiG-29s that various Pvt parties in the US have purchased could do the trick if the IAF is reluctant to part with one from its own inventory.
 

Gautam

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I was thinking more in terms of an M-88 core given SAFRAN's involvement.
That doesn't help expand our knowledge of engines. I would welcome joint development of a new core with the French, using a ready made core isn't a great option.

Although it is possible we might have to go for this option given a completely new core will take too long for many critical military aviation projects.

Long ago , a discussion on BRF suggested that there were a few companies in Europe & the US which specialised in these kind of modifications. IIRC , they also leased out such test beds. Typically those platforms are aircrafts already in use . One of the MiG-29s that various Pvt parties in the US have purchased could do the trick if the IAF is reluctant to part with one from its own inventory.
Interesting. I wonder if those test beds are subject to restrictions from their host govts.
 

Chain Smoker

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Reposting the pics in case these are removed from twitter :
View attachment 20102
View attachment 20101
View attachment 20104
The Kaveri derivative seems somewhat smaller in length than the dry Kaveri shown a few years ago. Of course this engine is also without afterburners.

The peak power output has been downrated from 52.5 KN to 46 KN. The engine also lighter by 56 kg (1180 kg vs. the original Kaveri at 1236 kg)
View attachment 20103

The dry thrust to weight ratio has marginally decreased. The Specific fuel consumption has marginally increased. The engine control has been automated. Inlet distortion tolerance has been built in. Obviously this engine is intended for the Ghatak/AURA UCAV.

Since the engine had been developed already, most of the inputs from the French company would be in testing & certification. That's a good thing given GTRE's inexperience in such matters. 2024 isn't a bad time as by then initial prototypes of the Ghatak should be ready. Currently we have plenty of ground test infra for a 42 KN engine.

I wonder where the flight tests will happen. We don't have a flight test platform. Russia again ?
If u notice properly there are three different fan sections used in the above pics.

It's impossible that it's dry varient weighs 1180 without after burner. If u go by these specs with TWR of 7.8 at 81 kn it should weight 1059 kg.
EVzqnfhUcAEpakj.jpeg

In 2018 GTRE had issued a tender for 'Expression of Interest for Altitude Tests of Kaveri Engine and its Derivative. So it shows that afterburner issues have been solved. It is also backed by the research publications if u follow them.

 

Gautam

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If u notice properly there are three different fan sections used in the above pics.

It's impossible that it's dry varient weighs 1180 without after burner. If u go by these specs with TWR of 7.8 at 81 kn it should weight 1059 kg.
View attachment 20106
In 2018 GTRE had issued a tender for 'Expression of Interest for Altitude Tests of Kaveri Engine and its Derivative. So it shows that afterburner issues have been solved. It is also backed by the research publications if u follow them.

The specs you are showing is for the base Kaveri engine. The engine shown above is a derivative of the base engine. They are very similar but not the same. The derivative seems to be a refined version of the dry Kaveri unveiled in Aero India 2013. For example the distortion tolerant fan & IGV should add some weight. There would be some weight discrepancies until the initial certification is completed.
 
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_Anonymous_

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That doesn't help expand our knowledge of engines. I would welcome joint development of a new core with the French, using a ready made core isn't a great option.

I think the time for that has passed. Right now the emphasis would be on salvaging what they can from the Kaveri project & make it available in some form or or the other in a future project .

For all we know , GTRE / DRDO could be pursuing clean sheet design projects with IPR vested with us with both - RR & SAFRAN.

Although it is possible we might have to go for this option given a completely new core will take too long for many critical military aviation projects.
My gut feeling is that they've gone in with the M-88 core since a few issues associated with the Kabini were structural & too deep to be rectified requiring redesign & rebuilding it from scratch , IIRC.


I haven't visited BRF in a long time . Most of the information I'm sharing here is courtesy what I've read in BRF .
Interesting. I wonder if those test beds are subject to restrictions from their host govts.
I don't think so . Why should they ?
 
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