Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

RASALGHUL

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It's got nothing about ethnicity (the French do not define themselves by ethnicity anyway, contrarily to the Germans) but about cultural values.
Didn`t Know that even in advanced countries(germany, poland, etc.) ethnicity is given importance. I thought it was all about personal values( IMO this should be given primary importance)
And there's nothing in common between the political culture of France and the political culture of Germany.
Can you explain more??
France is obsessed with independence; Germany is obsessed with hegemony.
Hegemony in being Industrial might, Economy???
France wants functioning and affordable materiel; Germany wants subsidies for its uncompetitive industries.
meh! France is on board too.
Germany and France pushed Tuesday for tougher industrial policies such as more state subsidies for European businesses to counter the threat from U.S. reforms that risk triggering a transatlantic trade war.
 

Amarante

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Jun 22, 2021
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From New Delhi, the letter from the French Defence Minister, Sébastien Lecornu, to the parliamentarians in charge of the Defence and Armed Forces Committee:

New Delhi, 26 November 2022

Madam Minister. Mr. President. Dear Mr. President
You have drawn my attention to the future of the Future Air Combat System project, known as SCAF, in the framework of the cooperation we are conducting with Germany and Spain, and I thank you for that.
Let me therefore report to you on the progress of the negotiations for the launch of phase 1B, which is aimed at the realisation of the demonstrator and which precedes the development and production phases.
As you know, the SCAF is composed of a fighter aircraft - at the centre of the system - as well as support drones and a cloud. This system will enable us to act effectively, by 2040, across the entire spectrum of air combat missions but also for our deterrence.
Industrially, the contracts are structured in seven distinct pillars:
  • Pillar 1: new generation aircraft platform;
  • Pillar 2: engines;
  • Pillar 3: Remote Carriers;
  • Pillar 4: Combat Cloud;
  • Pillar S: simulation;
  • Pillar 6: sensors
  • Pillar 7: stealth.
Most of the discussions and difficulties of the last 18 months have been about Pillar 1. On the other hand, negotiations on Pillar 2 were completed at the weekend.
At this stage, work is underway to finalise the Phase 1B contracts, particularly on Pillars 3 and 4. We believe that the work can be concluded in the next few days.
France, the lead country for the project, hopes to be able to notify the contracts to the manufacturers for all the pillars at the beginning of December through the French Directorate General for Armaments [DGA].
More generally, for France, we need to start preparing the post-Rafale
In this context, this phase 1B will be useful to us.
As you know, we are taking care at all times to ensure that this programme is compatible with our strategic interests, including our technological and industrial sovereignty, not without a link to the strategic air forces and the nuclear naval air force.
This is why the central role of Dassault Aviation in the SCAF project is essential.
Moreover, our ability to export this aircraft to our partners, particularly in the Indo-Pacific, is a known input for Germany and Spain, which we will not go back over.
Finally, the SCAF programme must also be financially sustainable, with a robust economic and industrial model. Phase 1B will enable us to define this aspect.
You know my commitment to these issues.
Please accept, Madam Minister, Mr. President, Mr. Member of Parliament, the assurance of my highest consideration.
Sébastien Lecornu /deepl
 

A Person

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Didn`t Know that even in advanced countries(germany, poland, etc.) ethnicity is given importance. I thought it was all about personal values( IMO this should be given primary importance)
It varies a lot country by country, depending on their history. France is actually kind of an oddball here because of several factors:
  • It's ethnically diverse, even just in the Metropolitan area you have different historical ethnic groups. Even the "core" French ethnic group defines itself by being a mixture of Celtic (Gauls), Latin (Romans), and German (Franks) people. This has only been increased by countless waves of immigration, even long before the 20th century. The legacy of the colonial empire has even further increased this.
  • Universalism. Since the Enlightenment and the Revolution, there's been this idea that people are people, whoever they are, so it doesn't matter what their skin color or head shape or native language is, they're just people, and they should be treated the same.
  • Due to the above, the redefinition of "nation" from being something shared by common birth (the etymological origin of the word, same "nat" root as in native, natality, etc.) to being something shared by common will.
Can you explain more??
France is a unitary state with a semi-presidential system where the executive power resides in the head of state (the President). The republic is the heir of the previous monarchy, the Kingdom of France having existed since 987, making France a nation that is over a thousand years old, and this has left an imprint -- the idea that the country can only work right if there is a clear, sole leader which can steer the nation, like a captain steers his ship, towards a clear destination.
Germany, on the other hand, is a federal parliamentary republic where executive power resides in the head of government (the Chancellor). Germany has a long history of fragmentation, being the heir of the "Holy Roman Empire", which was a complete mess. (One of the most devastating wars ever fought in Europe before the World Wars was the 30 Years War which was between German states, though it eventually spiraled out to include Denmark, Sweden, France, and Spain too.) Then Germany had a late unification under Bismark (the other heir of the HRE, Italy, also re-unified late), but then was re-fragmented again after WW2 by the West/East split. Needless to say, history made the idea of a strong head of state in Germany politically toxic, including for the Germans themselves.
Instead, it is the Parliament (Bundestag) which is all powerful.

And this is the cause of a lot of problems between France and Germany, as well as generally between France and parliamentary states, which are like 85% of the EU member states. French presidents tend to believe that signing a deal with another president or a prime minister is enough, and the get burned when the agreement is rejected or modified by the foreign parliament. Example: an agreement to design a new aircraft and accompanying combat system according to the "best athlete" principle is signed by the French and the German governments. Bundestag then changes that to the "fair returns" principle.
Hegemony in being Industrial might, Economy???
Economic, industrial, financial, normative...
Germany and France pushed Tuesday for tougher industrial policies such as more state subsidies for European businesses to counter the threat from U.S. reforms that risk triggering a transatlantic trade war.
Different. This is tit-for-tat stuff.
 
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randomradio

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It's got nothing about ethnicity (the French do not define themselves by ethnicity anyway, contrarily to the Germans) but about cultural values. And there's nothing in common between the political culture of France and the political culture of Germany.

France is obsessed with independence; Germany is obsessed with hegemony. France wants functioning and affordable materiel; Germany wants subsidies for its uncompetitive industries. France thinks ambitious projects must be conducted with a long-term vision; Germany thinks ambitious project must be redefined every three months by politicians.

Competence vs incompetence.
 

BMD

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1671290996096.png
 

Gtal

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I'm sorry sir, but what are you smoking?

France and Germany are in like THE DEEPEST, CLOSEST, EXTENSIVE AND SUBSTANTIVE bilateral relationship in the history of civilization, around which they have built the most exceptional system of governance, cooperation and sharing in history on a purely voluntary basis. All that following 150 years of the deadliest, most destructive rivalry in human history that led to the double carnage of the 20th century.

Together they have created a collective space infrastructure only second to the two greatest superpowers in history, including highly successful launch, a GNSS system, EO and ISR they have built up and are the core of Airbus (saving the world from a US monopoly).


They have had limited opportunities to integrate in defence because of circumstance and differing needs historically.

But they have cooperated deeper than anything before on many issue that are core to "defence and sovereignty", with Germany allegedly even helping and subsidizing french ICBM development.

The example of the Tiger attack helicopter also indicates compatibility, it has a genuine single integrated supply chain and even a single shared flightschool to match!


Building a joint fighter is no biggy whatever for these to nations who have embraced their shared destiny, and was never going to fail.


And all that of course has been achieved against a US led and enthusiastically UK followed media and political propaganda effort on all kinds of levels, even reaching into domestic journalism.

I mean THE NUMBER OF TIMER FCAS HAS BEEN DIMISSED/ PRONOUNCED DEAD/A FAILURE mostly by english speaking media and commentators or the Atlantikbrücke is just hilarious at this point. I mean we're literally talking about 15-20 separate occasions since 2018 where some "story" broke that it's over.. followed by a progresses anouncement weeks later!


In comparison Tempest was allegedly ahead!! of Fcas and going totally smoothly and all.

Yet now, in December 2022 suddenly the announcement that UK has reached agreement with Japan and Italy to initiate a joint fighter program?!?!

So actually nothing AT ALL has happened yet in that camp, until this MOU, and requirements/ workshare/ governance among WHOLLY UNFAMILIAR PARTNERS have yet to be hashed out!!!??

Not to mention Italy won't stop openly talking about merging programs, joining with Fcas endlessly, but that's not worth an article apparently lolol!


How do people on forums like this and following such program not feel totally stupid.. Is it just lala-land wishful thinking a a Brexit???
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
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France

Germany Budgets €40 Billion for Next-Generation Fighter Jet


The German government has earmarked about €40 billion ($43.2 billion) in spending by 2040 for its next-generation fighter jet, part of a European effort to upgrade the region’s defense capabilities.

The German-French project, called Future Combat Air System, will be among discussion points between German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and French President Emmanuel Macron when the two leaders meet on Jan. 22 in Paris, said the people, asking not to be identified
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
19,302
14,033
India
I'm sorry sir, but what are you smoking?

France and Germany are in like THE DEEPEST, CLOSEST, EXTENSIVE AND SUBSTANTIVE bilateral relationship in the history of civilization, around which they have built the most exceptional system of governance, cooperation and sharing in history on a purely voluntary basis. All that following 150 years of the deadliest, most destructive rivalry in human history that led to the double carnage of the 20th century.

Together they have created a collective space infrastructure only second to the two greatest superpowers in history, including highly successful launch, a GNSS system, EO and ISR they have built up and are the core of Airbus (saving the world from a US monopoly).


They have had limited opportunities to integrate in defence because of circumstance and differing needs historically.

But they have cooperated deeper than anything before on many issue that are core to "defence and sovereignty", with Germany allegedly even helping and subsidizing french ICBM development.

The example of the Tiger attack helicopter also indicates compatibility, it has a genuine single integrated supply chain and even a single shared flightschool to match!


Building a joint fighter is no biggy whatever for these to nations who have embraced their shared destiny, and was never going to fail.


And all that of course has been achieved against a US led and enthusiastically UK followed media and political propaganda effort on all kinds of levels, even reaching into domestic journalism.

I mean THE NUMBER OF TIMER FCAS HAS BEEN DIMISSED/ PRONOUNCED DEAD/A FAILURE mostly by english speaking media and commentators or the Atlantikbrücke is just hilarious at this point. I mean we're literally talking about 15-20 separate occasions since 2018 where some "story" broke that it's over.. followed by a progresses anouncement weeks later!


In comparison Tempest was allegedly ahead!! of Fcas and going totally smoothly and all.

Yet now, in December 2022 suddenly the announcement that UK has reached agreement with Japan and Italy to initiate a joint fighter program?!?!

So actually nothing AT ALL has happened yet in that camp, until this MOU, and requirements/ workshare/ governance among WHOLLY UNFAMILIAR PARTNERS have yet to be hashed out!!!??

Not to mention Italy won't stop openly talking about merging programs, joining with Fcas endlessly, but that's not worth an article apparently lolol!


How do people on forums like this and following such program not feel totally stupid.. Is it just lala-land wishful thinking a a Brexit???

It's unfortunate but Europe has fallen way behind in terms of fighter development and the infighting between Germany and France hasn't helped matters either, further exacerbated by the fact that Germany has significantly less competence in certain areas of critical importance which will bring in more delays than normal during the course of the program. Worse comes to worst, Europe will enter a potential new world war between now and 2050 without advanced air capabilities rivaling that of potential enemies.

Welcome to the forum.

Germany Budgets €40 Billion for Next-Generation Fighter Jet


The German government has earmarked about €40 billion ($43.2 billion) in spending by 2040 for its next-generation fighter jet, part of a European effort to upgrade the region’s defense capabilities.

The German-French project, called Future Combat Air System, will be among discussion points between German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and French President Emmanuel Macron when the two leaders meet on Jan. 22 in Paris, said the people, asking not to be identified

No chance we can spend that kinda money.

Any news about what Sweden plans to do now?
 

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Australia
FCAS wants the UK to save them
“To put it plainly, plans B, C or D cannot be compromised by the fact we are building a demonstrator. We have every interest in moving forward, which does not rule out considering a merger of the two programs.”
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Un rapport parlementaire prône des mesures pour anticiper l’échec éventuel des programmes d’armement européens

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Parliamentary report calls for measures to pre-empt possible failure of EU arms programmes


The Maritime Airborne Warfare System [MAWS] has taken a serious hit with the German decision to procure American P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft... while the Mk3 standard Tiger combat helicopter will only concern France and Spain [if it ever goes ahead...].

And if the Future Air Combat System [SCAF] has seen a favourable evolution, with the launch of phase 1B after months of disagreements between the industrialists involved, the Main Land Combat System [MGCS] is still not out of the rut, with the Germans Rheinmetall and Krauss-Maffei Wegman [associated with the French Nexter within KNDS] being at a loss. Obviously, and beyond political considerations [especially as far as Germany is concerned], these tensions, fuelled by questions of intellectual property and industrial sharing, are only delaying these armament programmes...

In November, when the launch of phase 1B of the SCAF was still not assured, Dassault Aviation's role as prime contractor being contested by Airbus concerning the new generation fighter [NGF], Senator Dominique de Legge took advantage of the debate on the 2023 Finance Act to table an amendment to finance, to the tune of 10 million euros, a feasibility study for a "national plan B" in order to "anticipate a possible impasse in negotiations", but without calling into question the "plan A" in the immediate future. Clearly, the idea of the parliamentarian was to ensure that we would not end up with our mouths in the water...".

"Every day of further delay in the negotiations is a day lost for the preparation of the French armed forces for the air war of the future," Mr de Legge had pleaded.

The latter's initiative was undoubtedly viewed favourably... by the Armed Forces Staff [EMA]. This is, at least, what is suggested by the report on the assessment of the Military Planning Law [LPM] 2019-2025 drawn up by the deputies Laurent Jacobelli [RN] and Yannick Chenevard [Renaissance], the content of which has just been made public [after having been discussed at length in committee in mid-February, nldr].

The two rapporteurs, who are of opposite political persuasions [notably with regard to European affairs], nevertheless agreed "to emphasise that successful cooperation must necessarily be based on an industrial division of labour based on the best athlete principle".

They wrote in their report that "in view of the delays in certain European programmes, it would seem useful to introduce decision-making milestones in the next military programming law to take stock of the progress of the programme and to decide whether or not to continue these cooperative ventures, as suggested by General Vincent Pons of the French Defence Staff".

Whether one calls it a "Plan B" or a "Decisional Milestone", the idea is the same: it is to avoid the French forces falling into a dead end... or even to stop the costs of a cooperation that would not go in the right direction.

"This seems all the more necessary given that the operational requirements underlying such cooperation are major for our armed forces: in any case, a successor to the Leclerc tank and the Rafale will be needed, whether this is done in a European or national framework", Mr Chenevard and Mr Jacobelli stressed.

"The tank of the future and the combat aircraft of the future are experiencing serious difficulties. I propose to set up decision-making milestones to regularly review European programmes and decide whether or not they should be continued. European cooperation must not be at the expense of our armies and our sovereignty," said the RN MP.

The two MPs also echoed the "concerns" of representatives of the French Defence Industrial and Technology Base (DITB) about the control of exports of equipment produced in the framework of European cooperation, as Germany has a very restrictive policy on this point, at least officially.

"It is essential for France to maintain sovereign control over the legal framework of its arms exports, including for equipment developed in the framework of European cooperation", the rapporteurs felt.

They also called for European funding mechanisms to be "focused solely on the capability needs of European armies and not on a competitive policy rationale", as had "certainly" been the case with the European Commission's decision to sideline MBDA for the EU HYDEF project, which had been entrusted to the Spanish company SENER Aeroespacial, whose experience in the field had yet to be proven.

"Finally, the EDIRPA joint procurement mechanism must be used for the acquisition of EU capabilities and not for the acquisition of third countries, as some countries seem to be wrongly claiming", concluded the two MEPs.
 
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RASALGHUL

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“The key question when you are developing a new product like this is that you need an architect, an organiser,” he says, referring to the long-running dispute between Airbus and Dassault over whether they could share the prime role.
Yeah! This programme is in a Gridlock.
I am more bullish on Tempest/GCAP project .
 
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_Anonymous_

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